Jules Verne Contest [Complete]

Tournaments completed in 2012.

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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Fewnix on Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:51 pm

claim for a bonus in this lunar war game 9401797, I will cede it, but now someone thinks he held two seas. I was holding off my turn until a ruling but I may have to go soon.



2011-08-14 06:42:10 - MattiWacklin: I have held s & n mare imbrium for at least three rounds now... Do i get the b
2011-08-14 06:42:25 - MattiWacklin: Bonus?
2011-08-15 15:43:53 - JJ41375: Since it is foggy...I can't tell.
2011-08-16 13:23:50 - MattiWacklin: A strange setting really..
2011-08-16 22:52:56 - Fewnix: I can see green holds two seas and I am reasonably sure has held them for 3 rounds soif need be I can certify the bonus
2011-08-16 22:54:49 - Fewnix: shold be posted in the thread, I am not sure if we keep playing, will hold off until a ruling
2011-08-17 05:04:44 - growler: i think I may have held a couple of seas for a few rounds too, to be honest I wasn't really aware of what the bonus was!!!
2011-08-17 14:06:53 - Fewnix: apparently itis mares not seas/ see top of map Tournament: Jules Verne Contest - Act 2 rd 1 mp 4 - bonus 2 Mares 3 rounds
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:16 am

If any of the freemium players in the Jules Verne Contest wants to sign up for the Spread the Warmth Epidemic and can't find a premium partner, I'm willing to help.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby rmjw10 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:45 am

i have held ice cap for two rounds


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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby general_c on Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:08 pm

I see that PNC doesn't have the free slot for game 9594938. It doesn't look like he is going to have one anytime soon can we move on without him? The game has been up for almost a week.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:42 am

Something has to be done. I'm working on a proposal but it's too slow and difficult typing on the laptop. When I get home on Friday I will be sending out a letter to everyone.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:21 pm

My friends, we have to make some decisions.

This is an epic-scale tournament, involving 27 maps, not counting the finales, and played with a complicated bonus structure and scoring system, and with flat rate spoils to make players pay attention to the map bonuses instead of just going for escalating kills. Even if it had been restricted to premium players only, it might easily have taken a year to complete, but the situation is hugely exacerbated by the fact that the original TO (DJENRE) recruited many freemium players, and with your slot restrictions we are moving at a snail's pace, and might take three years to finish it at the current rate.

That's if we can even keep the players for that long. Player satisfaction is low; there are many complaints and several players who have quit. This is a tournament that should never have accepted freemium players. If I had understood how badly designed this tournament was, I would never have agreed to help run it, but I was very new to the tournament world when DJENRE originally asked me and I didn't see the design flaws in it. All I saw at the time was that it was a beautiful idea. Beautiful it is, but hopelessly impractical. Anyway, what's done is done, I volunteered, and now that DJENRE has vanished I'm stuck with the thing.

Something needs to be done. I'm spending a ridiculous time on this tournament and getting bad results. There are two games which will auto-delete soon, because three freemiums cannot free up a slot to join them. Three other freemiums are stuck in those games and might pull out of them before the first three get in.

Like I said, a tourney this big and complex should never have accepted freemiums, but it did, and they/you are more than 25% of the total players, some of them quite high on the scoreboard. I certainly can't retroactively kick them out, but going on like this is turning my last few hairs gray. I even debated buying premium for everyone myself, but there are fourteen freemiums left, and I just can't afford that kind of money.

So what can be done? I've put together some ideas. I want to know what everybody thinks of them. Please look at the points below and comment on any that you think are viable, and any that you absolutely would not accept.

1. Should I short-turn the tournament? Just arbitrarily cut it off and announce a winner after the current round is over? Basically scrap about 80% of the tournament and calculate results after what we have completed?
And if we do that, should we a) attempt to play the finales, or b) scrap the finales also?

2. Should I start ruthlessly cutting anyone who can't make their invite, even though it seems very unfair? (And it raises a whole new nightmare, adjusting the scoring, because the whole score system was based on 8-player games. I've already had to make some 7-player games, but if I start ruthlessly cutting people I may end up with 6- or even 5-player games. No idea how to address the scoring if that happens.)

3. Here's an idea I had: allow proxy players. Basically the freemiums that can't make an invite because of slot limitations could invite a premium proxy to play in their place. The proxies wouldn't be eligible to score any points, but they would be able to fulfil your spot and prevent you from getting kicked out because you don't have a free slot. Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea looks to me.

4. Should we stop trying to play several maps at once? Just play one map at a time and accept that the tournament might take four or five years to finish? I mean, it's not like CC is going to vanish.

5. Anything and everything. I'm open to suggestions. Actually, I'm desperate... :(

6. Of course, if there was somebody in the tournament who is wealthy enough to gift premium to fourteen players, that would solve all our problems...:-)
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby rmjw10 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:27 pm

I think that if someone cannot join a game in proper time then they should be cut.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby VicFontaine on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:30 pm

Eliminate the length in two ways:

1) change the tournament to be SEVERAL tournaments that build as a story: ACT 1, ACT 2, ACT 3. I.e., "Jules Verne Act 1 tournament." And so on.
This may have the advantage of generating NEW excitement and new blood into future ACTS, i.e., "future" Jules Verne tourney's that will complete the modified vision. If this is done, a fresh, rewritten home page for the tournament must be done that is short, succinct, and a few hundred words.

Winners of each do not have to advance unless they choose, receive a medal, maybe premium (?), and a pat on the back.

2) Cut a few maps from each ACT, which will shorten things.

Re: Players:
1) I have no tolerance for players who say they'll participate then do not, and never say anything. You shouldn't either, since you're doing the work. If you hear nothing, they're gone. You're already doing this. I support you there, at least!
2) Be ruthless: if they don't show, keep the game but reformat the game to include X fewer number of players, minus the player who didn't show. This is simple, and could be done within 24 hours of a new round formation.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby JJ41375 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:32 pm

I think the idea with proxy players could work, if they have somebody who could do that. Otherwise maybe get a reserve to be a proxy player.

Otherwise let this take 4 or 5 years. Hopefully most of us will still be playing.

Just my two cents.

Thanks.

JJ
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby SirSebstar on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:37 pm

Should we stop trying to play several maps at once? Just play one map at a time and accept that the tournament might take four or five years to finish? I mean, it's not like CC is going to vanish.
I vote we continue at a snailpace no matter how long it takes.
I understand the troubles. I sympathize with the TD, and the players. Cutting players who miss their invites might be possible. However, i'd rather win fair and accept it takes longer then shortcut people out of the tournament.
The other though is to just cut the tournament short or end it.
my preferance is keeping all players. but i'd rather cut in the lenght of the tournament then in the players.
negative on proxy players, unacceptable. besides who would win the prize then, the proxy or the original?
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby torres44cm on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:42 pm

Dukasaur wrote:My friends, we have to make some decisions.

This is an epic-scale tournament, involving 27 maps, not counting the finales, and played with a complicated bonus structure and scoring system, and with flat rate spoils to make players pay attention to the map bonuses instead of just going for escalating kills. Even if it had been restricted to premium players only, it might easily have taken a year to complete, but the situation is hugely exacerbated by the fact that the original TO (DJENRE) recruited many freemium players, and with your slot restrictions we are moving at a snail's pace, and might take three years to finish it at the current rate.

That's if we can even keep the players for that long. Player satisfaction is low; there are many complaints and several players who have quit. This is a tournament that should never have accepted freemium players. If I had understood how badly designed this tournament was, I would never have agreed to help run it, but I was very new to the tournament world when DJENRE originally asked me and I didn't see the design flaws in it. All I saw at the time was that it was a beautiful idea. Beautiful it is, but hopelessly impractical. Anyway, what's done is done, I volunteered, and now that DJENRE has vanished I'm stuck with the thing.

Something needs to be done. I'm spending a ridiculous time on this tournament and getting bad results. There are two games which will auto-delete soon, because three freemiums cannot free up a slot to join them. Three other freemiums are stuck in those games and might pull out of them before the first three get in.

Like I said, a tourney this big and complex should never have accepted freemiums, but it did, and they/you are more than 25% of the total players, some of them quite high on the scoreboard. I certainly can't retroactively kick them out, but going on like this is turning my last few hairs gray. I even debated buying premium for everyone myself, but there are fourteen freemiums left, and I just can't afford that kind of money.

So what can be done? I've put together some ideas. I want to know what everybody thinks of them. Please look at the points below and comment on any that you think are viable, and any that you absolutely would not accept.

1. Should I short-turn the tournament? Just arbitrarily cut it off and announce a winner after the current round is over? Basically scrap about 80% of the tournament and calculate results after what we have completed?
And if we do that, should we a) attempt to play the finales, or b) scrap the finales also?

2. Should I start ruthlessly cutting anyone who can't make their invite, even though it seems very unfair? (And it raises a whole new nightmare, adjusting the scoring, because the whole score system was based on 8-player games. I've already had to make some 7-player games, but if I start ruthlessly cutting people I may end up with 6- or even 5-player games. No idea how to address the scoring if that happens.)

3. Here's an idea I had: allow proxy players. Basically the freemiums that can't make an invite because of slot limitations could invite a premium proxy to play in their place. The proxies wouldn't be eligible to score any points, but they would be able to fulfil your spot and prevent you from getting kicked out because you don't have a free slot. Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea looks to me.

4. Should we stop trying to play several maps at once? Just play one map at a time and accept that the tournament might take four or five years to finish? I mean, it's not like CC is going to vanish.

5. Anything and everything. I'm open to suggestions. Actually, I'm desperate... :(

6. Of course, if there was somebody in the tournament who is wealthy enough to gift premium to fourteen players, that would solve all our problems...:-)



Man! I feel your pain, you took over a messy situation, if no one wants to pay for 14 premiums which I don't expect anyone would, it would be less painfull for you to cancell the whole thing. You have a nightmare on your hands, just a thought. I don't want to play a 3 year tourney. also I thought freemiums were suppose to keep enough slots open. alot of perople might not like it, but mayby replace the freemiums with premiums as you suggested.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby fairman on Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:50 pm

change the spoil to escalating in all round.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby rjhankey on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:28 pm

There's a thought ... if a freemium has not been willing to keep a slot open and can't make an invite ... go to the reserve list, and stress to the reserves that they need to have slots available, or even encourage reserves to only be premium.

You could even poll the freemiums and see which of them intend to truly remain available -- maybe they're even considering converting to premium? Some of them may also tell you they'd rather be replaced by a premium player permanently, especially when they realize the length of the tourney. The proxy idea is similar, but does introduce the question of who are we playing against, the registered tournament player, or the prox(ies)?

I'm also in the camp that we continue along with the tournament as designed, although it may run for quite a while. You could extend an opportunity to all involved in the tournament to turn their spot over to a reserve if they're not interested in a tourney that's going to run as long as this one?
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby bobzimmerman on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:34 pm

First, thank you for picking up the tourney and doing such great work with a flawed system. I will support whatever decision you come to, but here are my thoughts.

I believe the freemiums were told the need to keep slots open. If they don't check in on time and are cut, there is little room for complaints. The proxy option is creative, but I think it raises more problems than it solves. I am certainly enjoying the tourney and would live with it stretching out for years, but that is quite a commitment on your part. I would be satisfied with shortening the tourney for your sake.

Please though, no escalating spoils. :sick:
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Bandido on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:37 pm

Hi
I'm one of the 14 freemium, I always keep a freeslot or two for the tournament, the others could do the same.
And I will buy a premium if the others freemiums are ready to do the same.

I was a premium membre first, but I let it go to freemium because that help me do not join too many games at the same time. I was a CCoolic ;)

And no escalating plzzzz!
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby chapcrap on Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:10 pm

Dukasaur wrote:My friends, we have to make some decisions.

This is an epic-scale tournament, involving 27 maps, not counting the finales, and played with a complicated bonus structure and scoring system, and with flat rate spoils to make players pay attention to the map bonuses instead of just going for escalating kills. Even if it had been restricted to premium players only, it might easily have taken a year to complete, but the situation is hugely exacerbated by the fact that the original TO (DJENRE) recruited many freemium players, and with your slot restrictions we are moving at a snail's pace, and might take three years to finish it at the current rate.

That's if we can even keep the players for that long. Player satisfaction is low; there are many complaints and several players who have quit. This is a tournament that should never have accepted freemium players. If I had understood how badly designed this tournament was, I would never have agreed to help run it, but I was very new to the tournament world when DJENRE originally asked me and I didn't see the design flaws in it. All I saw at the time was that it was a beautiful idea. Beautiful it is, but hopelessly impractical. Anyway, what's done is done, I volunteered, and now that DJENRE has vanished I'm stuck with the thing.

Something needs to be done. I'm spending a ridiculous time on this tournament and getting bad results. There are two games which will auto-delete soon, because three freemiums cannot free up a slot to join them. Three other freemiums are stuck in those games and might pull out of them before the first three get in.

Like I said, a tourney this big and complex should never have accepted freemiums, but it did, and they/you are more than 25% of the total players, some of them quite high on the scoreboard. I certainly can't retroactively kick them out, but going on like this is turning my last few hairs gray. I even debated buying premium for everyone myself, but there are fourteen freemiums left, and I just can't afford that kind of money.

So what can be done? I've put together some ideas. I want to know what everybody thinks of them. Please look at the points below and comment on any that you think are viable, and any that you absolutely would not accept.

1. Should I short-turn the tournament? Just arbitrarily cut it off and announce a winner after the current round is over? Basically scrap about 80% of the tournament and calculate results after what we have completed?
And if we do that, should we a) attempt to play the finales, or b) scrap the finales also?

2. Should I start ruthlessly cutting anyone who can't make their invite, even though it seems very unfair? (And it raises a whole new nightmare, adjusting the scoring, because the whole score system was based on 8-player games. I've already had to make some 7-player games, but if I start ruthlessly cutting people I may end up with 6- or even 5-player games. No idea how to address the scoring if that happens.)

3. Here's an idea I had: allow proxy players. Basically the freemiums that can't make an invite because of slot limitations could invite a premium proxy to play in their place. The proxies wouldn't be eligible to score any points, but they would be able to fulfil your spot and prevent you from getting kicked out because you don't have a free slot. Actually, the more I think about it, the better this idea looks to me.

4. Should we stop trying to play several maps at once? Just play one map at a time and accept that the tournament might take four or five years to finish? I mean, it's not like CC is going to vanish.

5. Anything and everything. I'm open to suggestions. Actually, I'm desperate... :(

6. Of course, if there was somebody in the tournament who is wealthy enough to gift premium to fourteen players, that would solve all our problems...:-)

First of all, it doesn't matter to me what decision is reached.

Second, making the tournament take longer than another year probably should out of the question. This has already been going a while and many more players could be out by then.

Third, if this tournament can't be run with freemiums, then you must either cut them or use proxies. It seems to me like it can't be run properly with freemiums for 2 reasons. The first is that they can't handle the game load with only 4 slots available. The second is that usually a premium player will be more committed to CC and sticking around while a freemium player may not stick around that long. And if we've got 14 freemium players still left (which is amazing to me that they have stuck around this long) there is a pretty good chance that they will leave before the tournament is completed anyway.

The biggest problem with proxies is not only finding them, but how would you decide a who gets a medal if the proxy play 40% and the freemium players plays 60%? And if the freemium is allowed to use a proxy, he might use them to help play maps that he is not as good at, giving a definite advantage in this format.

I think my solution would be to shorten the tournament some and possibly cut the freemium list. If they aren't leaving spots open for the tournament, then they are already not committed to it. I can't blame them for that though. I wouldn't want to be waiting around for games in this tournament and not being able to play anything else.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Pandemonium on Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:34 pm

It's a messy situation for sure, Dukasaur has the biggest headaches... The idea was beautiful... implementation - not so much...

1 - I kinda like 1, but it's probably just because I'm No.1 at the moment :) - also, VicFontaine has good ideas ("SEVERAL tournaments that build as a story: ACT 1, ACT 2, ACT 3. I.e.")

2 - I don't mind you implementing this, but in the long run, it might (it probably will) make more problems...

3 - I don't like this one at all... I don't like escalating either...

4 - we could... but more and more players (premium included) will lose interest over vast periods of time...

5 - I am a freemium (but I didn't had ANY problems with slots 'til now) not by my choice. I live in Macedonia, and we just DO NOT HAVE ANY MEANS of net-shopping and I just can't upgrade. I am willing do send money to some dude in some Normal country to make me premium - but we have 13 other freemiums... They should put a thought here too...

Anyway, it's a pretty complicated situation... I hope someone will think of something brilliant...
Last edited by Pandemonium on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby dexterdexter on Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:57 pm

make all maps doodle earth, that should speed things up a bit.

ps: it's you're tourney so you're responsible for it's success. Check out the fast appreciated tourney and adjust the rules.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby DBandit70 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Wow this is a messy situation, and if this tournament is going to go forward it without questions needs to have some of the bumps ironed out.

1.) Without question and this is true for any freemium in any tournament, that if they are not respectful within reason to have a spot open in a timely matter they should not be allowed to continue. I have no sympathy for those that would join such a lengthy tournament as a freemium and not be able to join games. They should not be allowed any leeway beyond someone having a solid reason for not being able to join a game and even then, they should be only given a break one time before being asked to exit the tourney.

2.) If people leave the tourney or are kicked out it should not affect the scoring of games that have been booked and that are history; what's complete is complete.

3.) I would support the idea of a proxy player for all freemium players 100% and for those that can not come out with a "proxy partner" to move things forward must be asked nicely to step down for the simple understanding that a tourney lasting years will lose it's interest and value with that much passage of time.

4.) Even though I would hate to see the tourney lost and all your hard work be lost with it, ultimately if it is in your best interest to kill this monster, I would completely understand that also. Perhaps you could even make some changes and start a new tourney using the same format but making the changes to it that need to be made for your own sanity's sake :)
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby dementia13 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:20 pm

Hi folks,

I too am a freemium player who has very much enjoyed this tourney and I've always kept slots free. I think rather than having a zero-tolerance policy for freemiums it would be better to have a "probation" period.

Anyways, for my own part, thanks for organizing the tourney and taking up the responsibility. I'm enjoying it and I hope to continue to participate!
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby mcshanester29 on Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:28 pm

VicFontaine wrote:Eliminate the length in two ways:

1) change the tournament to be SEVERAL tournaments that build as a story: ACT 1, ACT 2, ACT 3. I.e., "Jules Verne Act 1 tournament." And so on.
This may have the advantage of generating NEW excitement and new blood into future ACTS, i.e., "future" Jules Verne tourney's that will complete the modified vision. If this is done, a fresh, rewritten home page for the tournament must be done that is short, succinct, and a few hundred words.

Winners of each do not have to advance unless they choose, receive a medal, maybe premium (?), and a pat on the back.

2) Cut a few maps from each ACT, which will shorten things.

Re: Players:
1) I have no tolerance for players who say they'll participate then do not, and never say anything. You shouldn't either, since you're doing the work. If you hear nothing, they're gone. You're already doing this. I support you there, at least!
2) Be ruthless: if they don't show, keep the game but reformat the game to include X fewer number of players, minus the player who didn't show. This is simple, and could be done within 24 hours of a new round formation.



I would have to agree with this solution...I think breaking it down into separate acts or act 2 maps 1- 8 as one, act 2 maps 9-15 as another and act 3 maps 16-22

Or cutting maps works good as well. Unfortunately you might have to cut some who don't join there games within say 72hrs.

I would say no to proxies as it adds more problems.

I know your hard work is appreciated and no one would fault you if you just decide to let this one die as it is complicated and poorly designed. Or maybe you can just figure out a finale after the maps are played out to shorten it. I agree we don't want it to go real long and you are right at this pace it will take a long time.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby fbonsignori on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:24 am

IMHO proposal n. 2 is the cleanest: about the following scoring adjustment problem ... we will think after ...
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Fewnix on Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:47 am

Thank you for taking on this extremely difficult task. Please make whatever changes you think appropriate including canceling the whole mess.

One suggestion is to set up a cut-off point, say the end of Act !1, Round 1, and then invite those you want to invite, or allow people you want to allow, to sign up for this tournament continued in a new format. You might say: " Act II round 2 will only be open to the top 16 players from round 1." or: "Act !1 round 2 will be decided from this forma and these maps" . You might rule out freemiums or people who have been slow to respond to an invite or people you just don't like. You have the power.

Maybe, at the same time, ask for volunteers to withdraw from the tournament and start with a much smaller pool. of people who know they are in it for the long haul and can be expected to pull their weight.

To help, please feel free to cancel me from this tournament if it help, keep me in if it helps.

Any other volunteers willing to help Dukassur when he needs some help, recognizing we hope to be sending: " in please" for lots of tournaments he organizes in the future.?
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:53 am

Thank you all very much for your feedback, and for your many compliments and words of encouragement!

Tonight I'll have an announcent (well, tomorrow morning for most of you.) Meanwhile, I can report that I made a couple changes to the Greenland games, so one of the ones that was holding us up has now started, and the other one I've nuked and will re-create once I'm sure who's in it.
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Re: Jules Verne Contest [Act II Round 1 Maps 1-6]

Postby general_c on Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:06 am

I like the idea of splitting this up into a couple tournaments.

After this act there should only be 48 players so perhaps you can enforce a 4 game freemium rule?

Ditching or stand in players are not good solutions.

Also I'm ready for South America anytime.
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