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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby 4myGod on Sun May 10, 2009 9:04 am

I too am quite curious how this helps at all, let alone wins the game. I am certain you guys have a reason for saying that, but please explain for people slow like me.

Supposing you have a button you can set to "away" and then perhaps at 15hrs into your turn it automatically random places your troops between your territories. The time you wait until it auto places your troops is not an option, but just the mandatory setting.

You could make it so that after 3 turns it still will auto kick you from the game. However the only thing it saves you from is having it show up as missed turn on your profile. That way people who know there going to be gone are separated from people who just don't care.

If not this option, some other option should be implemented for 2 reasons:

1. I have only played 3 games, but I can already tell that you don't know how long a game is going to last, you can guess, but it could be 1 week to over months from what I can see. So for someone to say I will be online every day for the next couple months is quite a commitment. Let's say you are gone just 1 day for an unexpected meeting in japan that you have to jump on a plane for immediately. If you have your 4 or more if premium games running, that's 4 missed turns from just 1 day.

I realized 2 days before I left for Laos that I had to go to Laos for a visa run... I had to spend 3 days in Laos, thankfully my Hotel had internet, but I might not always have that convenience.

2. I heard the way it's setup now to deal with missed turns is by giving double the territory troops for missing a turn, on your next turn. I am playing with a guy now who missed I believe it was his first turn, perhaps his first 2. However he missed another one after his first. The benefit he has is with his first turn people rarely have the continent or section bonuses... most of your reinforcements come from territories already, and no one knows where he is planning to fight, so nobody can build up his defenses against him. So it's like putting his troops in the bank for a turn, so they can't be attacked, they are there for safe keeping. Some people counter this by saying "just destroy his territories so he won't get a big bonus. Well at this stage he has 3 troops on each territory, you rarely have enough troops to take over your first continent or section bonus, let alone enough troops to target a single player and finish him off. You would have to take out 3 of his territories to keep him from getting 1 troop the next turn... 3 of his territories at the beginning is 9 troops... so you have to kill 9 troops to keep him from getting 2, 1 for the missed turn and 1 for the current. Though if he placed his troops, you can just kill them right there when he has 6's and 9's, instead of being forced to wait until he throws down BAM 18...

Anything that can make these 2 things better I think would make a great site even more great.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby blakebowling on Sun May 10, 2009 1:05 pm

What if, (and I'm sorry if I didn't see it earlier in the thread) it only took your turn the minute before it was supposed to expire, and then, still only deployed your troops, I'm sure there isn't an unfair advantage in that.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Thezzaruz on Sun May 10, 2009 5:51 pm

blakebowling wrote:What if, (and I'm sorry if I didn't see it earlier in the thread) it only took your turn the minute before it was supposed to expire, and then, still only deployed your troops, I'm sure there isn't an unfair advantage in that.


Then what's the use??? Sure you don't get the missed turn marker (still deserve it IMO) but other than that?
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Mr_Adams on Mon May 11, 2009 12:10 am

let's have everybody's turns be taken by super advanced artificial inteligence.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby jakejakejakejake on Mon May 11, 2009 6:25 am

Thezzaruz wrote:
blakebowling wrote:What if, (and I'm sorry if I didn't see it earlier in the thread) it only took your turn the minute before it was supposed to expire, and then, still only deployed your troops, I'm sure there isn't an unfair advantage in that.


Then what's the use??? Sure you don't get the missed turn marker (still deserve it IMO) but other than that?




You'd have those troops at the beginning of your next turn, rather then the end, and more defenses for your territories during your opponents turns.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just trying to help them explain. I think it's a terrible idea. If you're having trouble meeting a 24 hour deadline...you really do deserve to miss your turn.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby spiesr on Mon May 11, 2009 7:59 am

4myGod wrote:I too am quite curious how this helps at all, let alone wins the game. I am certain you guys have a reason for saying that, but please explain for people slow like me.
Certain maps have "objectives" that if you hold when you begin your turn you automatically win. So if you are in a freestyle game and you this AutoTurn begin button worked the following could happen:
You go last in a round and take the objective.
You don't have time to sit and refresh the page for the next however long it takes for your opponent to begin their turn.
You activate AutoTurn.
Now the moment your opponent begins his turn the computer would begin yours and you would win (by holding the objective) before your opponent could do anything about it.

A similar could happen if you have a bonus region that there is no chance of your opponent not breaking on his turn. You use this so you receive the bonus before your opponent can attack you. (In this case you don't automatically win, but it is still an unfair advantage.)
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby blakebowling on Mon May 11, 2009 10:29 pm

jakejakejakejake wrote:
Thezzaruz wrote:
blakebowling wrote:What if, (and I'm sorry if I didn't see it earlier in the thread) it only took your turn the minute before it was supposed to expire, and then, still only deployed your troops, I'm sure there isn't an unfair advantage in that.


Then what's the use??? Sure you don't get the missed turn marker (still deserve it IMO) but other than that?




You'd have those troops at the beginning of your next turn, rather then the end, and more defenses for your territories during your opponents turns.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just trying to help them explain. I think it's a terrible idea. If you're having trouble meeting a 24 hour deadline...you really do deserve to miss your turn.

I personally don't like it either.. if you want to play.. you should show up.. I was just trying to solve problems in the suggestion... possibly could be a setting for those that don't like it
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby lancehoch on Tue May 12, 2009 12:29 am

Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby ranmori on Tue May 26, 2009 2:32 am

simulation credit auto
lancehoch wrote:
Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.
Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.

Good idea. thanks =D>
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby BaldAdonis on Tue May 26, 2009 3:07 am

lancehoch wrote:Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.

That happened already. You guys didn't do anything. It's nice that you put on an act for us, but if you're not going to follow through and punish people when you find out they've been cheating, then what's the point? Anyone who wants a script to automate their turns can make one, and they've got the precedent of the "conqueror" to protect them.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue May 26, 2009 7:41 pm

ranmori wrote:simulation credit auto
lancehoch wrote:
Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.
Unless you have proof that someone is using a script that automates a turn, please do not make up rumors. If you do have proof, please PM either AndyDufresne, king achilles, or myself with that proof and we will take the appropriate action from there.

Good idea. thanks =D>


WTF? did you create a new username just to make that post?
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue May 26, 2009 7:50 pm

I think it is a good idea and should be implemented for those that suddenly need to go away, their computer crashes, get sick and have to go to the hospital for a couple days.

First of all, it provides, NO COMPETETIVE ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER. Those who were saying that it somehow helps you win have no idea what they are talking about. You cant win if you dont attack.

I think the op, just wanted to do us all a favor with this suggestion. If you hit auto, you get your reinforcments placed on your territories randomly (that itself is a disadvantage to the player, not the opponents) and your turn ends. THAT'S IT! I mean, as an opponent, you should be salivating at the thought that somebody has hit the auto button, knowing that they wont retaliate for a whole turn or more.

It eliminates people getting double bonuses for missed turns (which I am against)
It makes the game go much faster if you dont have to wait for a player's 24 hours to expire 3 times.

I dont see a single negative thing about it.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue May 26, 2009 7:55 pm

The Fuzzy Pengui wrote:It won't happen. There was a thread about a plugin for this before (I don't remember exactly where it was, and it's too early in the morning for me to search for it), and the people who were suspected to be using it were told to stop. The reason being that lack doesn't want a human to have to play against a computer, but only human vs human. It would create something extremely unfair, especially if you are playing an objective based game...all you have to do is take the objective and set it to auto take your next turn. Bam! The second it's your turn, the computer would start and you would win...no chance of anybody else being able to stop you.



I fail to see the logic here. Nothing about an auto deploy then end turn sequence deviates from what CC is already doing. It does put whoever uses the autodeploy at a serious disadvantage, and would probably cost them the game, but in no way would you be "playing against a computer"

The computer chooses your territories for you already, chooses the neutral territories, puts 3 armies on every tert for you. I dont see how the op's suggestion for autodeploy is any different than those things.

But then again, what do i know :mrgreen:
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Tue May 26, 2009 8:03 pm

The Fuzzy Pengui wrote:Because now you have to be there to start your turn (and you might not be there as soon as your turn becomes available to take). With something like this, the second your turn becomes available to take, the computer would take it (thus resulting in a win for you). This is just one reasoning as to why it wouldn't happen, there are others as well.



I think you are very confused about this penguin. There is no way the "computer" is "taking" your turn. The very second it becomes your turn, the armies that you are alotted get spread evenly thoughout your territories. THEN YOUR TURN IS OVER :) You dont get to attack, you dont get to reinforce, you dont get to "win" in any way. All you get to do is keep the game moving for the other players and remain a sitting duck.

Being able to employ the worst strategy ever does not give you a competetive advantage.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Thezzaruz on Wed May 27, 2009 4:17 am

wolfpack0530 wrote:Those who were saying that it somehow helps you win have no idea what they are talking about. You cant win if you dont attack.

No, that is not true. In some situations you can win by starting your turn, no attacking, deployment or any such thing needed just simply starting your turn will do it. I suggest you read up a bit on the rules, especially "Objectives" if you want to have any idea what you are talking about...



wolfpack0530 wrote:It eliminates people getting double bonuses for missed turns (which I am against)

Again not true, no one ever gets "double" bonuses as a reward for missing a turn.



wolfpack0530 wrote:It makes the game go much faster if you dont have to wait for a player's 24 hours to expire 3 times.

I agree that the 3 day wait can be a bitch at times but do you really think that anyone that doesn't bother to finish games would bother to use an "auto" option? Sure a few would but in general? Nah I say...



wolfpack0530 wrote:I dont see a single negative thing about it.

When you are the only one with that view you might want to think about it a bit more tbh.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby lancehoch on Wed May 27, 2009 8:40 am

wolfpack0530 wrote:There is no way the "computer" is "taking" your turn. The very second it becomes your turn, the armies that you are alotted get spread evenly thoughout your territories.

This is the problem. Ask any speed freestyle player, what they would do is play something like Oasis or City Mogul, get to the center, end their turn and employ this script for an auto win. That is why any form of script like this is not allowed.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Wed May 27, 2009 11:38 am

lancehoch wrote:
wolfpack0530 wrote:There is no way the "computer" is "taking" your turn. The very second it becomes your turn, the armies that you are alotted get spread evenly thoughout your territories.

This is the problem. Ask any speed freestyle player, what they would do is play something like Oasis or City Mogul, get to the center, end their turn and employ this script for an auto win. That is why any form of script like this is not allowed.



Yes, speed freestyle may be effected on like 3 maps including Feudal. But that is a very very very small niche when there are over a hundred maps with multiple play options. You cant even play speed freestyle and compete without the clicky map thing. If you allow those greasymonkey click maps, and not everybody has them, you are allowing some players to use a HUGE competetive advantage.

How about this lancehoch. Is there a way that you can make an auto button for casual games only, and not speed freestyle games?

Oasis is really the only map where starting your turn right away would help. I bet that the percentage of people who win city mogul or feudal war by capturing the center, or the castles is very small compared to the % of games won by just defeating all the other players. All the Auto button would do is create a bit of extra strategy in those maps.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby mpjh on Wed May 27, 2009 11:46 am

Maybe you could write a program that can spell "jim."
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Wed May 27, 2009 11:49 am

Thezzaruz wrote:
wolfpack0530 wrote:Those who were saying that it somehow helps you win have no idea what they are talking about. You cant win if you dont attack.

No, that is not true. In some situations you can win by starting your turn, no attacking, deployment or any such thing needed just simply starting your turn will do it. I suggest you read up a bit on the rules, especially "Objectives" if you want to have any idea what you are talking about...

Okay, i admit that there are certain instances where you can win just by starting your turn. but by then, you have captured all the castles, the mall, or the oasis. Forgive me for not think about things only in speed freestyle terms. There are other ways to play the games, lots of other settings. So if you think of things in standard time sequential terms, then after you capture the castles, you still have to wait for all the other players to go before you can start your next turn. It changes nothing. Perhaps, the auto button can only be applied to standard games, if people feel the freestylers will abuse it.

wolfpack0530 wrote:It eliminates people getting double bonuses for missed turns (which I am against)

Again not true, no one ever gets "double" bonuses as a reward for missing a turn.

Maybe my terminology was off. If you miss your turn, on your next turn you get your normal allotment, and all your deferred troups, hence "double troups". Maybe i should have said "two turns worth of troups all at once on your second turn"

wolfpack0530 wrote:It makes the game go much faster if you dont have to wait for a player's 24 hours to expire 3 times.

I agree that the 3 day wait can be a bitch at times but do you really think that anyone that doesn't bother to finish games would bother to use an "auto" option? Sure a few would but in general? Nah I say...

Yeah, there would still be lots of deadbeats, but for people like me or you who have near 100% turns taken, and have tried to build a respectable reputation for months or years on end........... it would be a nice little safety net for when emergencies or unforseen circumstances pop up where you cant log on.


wolfpack0530 wrote:I dont see a single negative thing about it.

When you are the only one with that view you might want to think about it a bit more tbh.


You have pointed out some concerns and so did lancehoch in the following post. Thanks for taking the time to respond, but i think there can be a middle ground on this.

EDIT: my responses to his responses are in italics.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Thezzaruz on Wed May 27, 2009 2:51 pm

wolfpack0530 wrote:Forgive me for not think about things only in speed freestyle terms. There are other ways to play the games, lots of other settings. So if you think of things in standard time sequential terms, then after you capture the castles, you still have to wait for all the other players to go before you can start your next turn. It changes nothing.

It would be ignorant to think about just one setting as this suggestion would effect ALL settings.



wolfpack0530 wrote:Perhaps, the auto button can only be applied to standard games, if people feel the freestylers will abuse it.

It has nothing to do with abuse, this suggestion just works poorly with Freestyle games.



wolfpack0530 wrote:Maybe my terminology was off. If you miss your turn, on your next turn you get your normal allotment, and all your deferred troups, hence "double troups". Maybe i should have said "two turns worth of troups all at once on your second turn"

Completely different issue, take it up in the appropriate thread.

And also, this suggestion would mean that people that misses the occasional turn would get just as many (in many cases more even) armies as they currently do, never less. All you do is change the time they get their armies. And honestly, isn't this kind of an overkill way to solve the non-issue of people being to stupid to realise that those missing a turn might come back???



wolfpack0530 wrote:Yeah, there would still be lots of deadbeats, but for people like me or you who have near 100% turns taken, and have tried to build a respectable reputation for months or years on end...........

If this suggestion was implemented I would want those auto turns to count as not taken turns for the Attendance stat. Sure the 24 hours is a pain but IMO the tactical mess that comes from deadbeats/missed turns is more annoying.



wolfpack0530 wrote:it would be a nice little safety net for when emergencies or unforseen circumstances pop up where you cant log on.

Come on, that's a BS desperate argument. A setting you have to actively turn on will never help in such situations.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Wed May 27, 2009 8:05 pm

Thezzarus,

I am a little off put by what i perceive to be a harsh tone from you. I have already conceeded that you have pointed out some things that i didnt consider, and honestly appreciate all feedback. But i still dont fully understand your position. Maybe you could be so kind as to elaborate a bit on the following.

I agree with what you said "It would work poorly with freestlye games."
I also agree that auto turns should negatively affect your attendance stat, or maybe keep a running total of all auto turns taken for all to see.

Do you think it would be possible to only offer auto for standard games?
How would it negatively effect Standard games?
Do you agree that it is a disadvantage to have your allotment distributed evenly amoung all your terts vs deferring them and getting to place two turns worth of armies where you want them?

And lastly, I still think it would be nice for people who know that they will be away from the internet for a period of time in the future. I had a guy that i played in the mega tourney wrath of aragon, and his family took him on vacation, and he deadbeated like 30 games. His points went from like 1600 to 600. I personally dont care about the points very much, but it seems like alot of people on CC do, so I felt bad for him.

Peace
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu May 28, 2009 8:36 am

wolfpack0530 wrote:I am a little off put by what i perceive to be a harsh tone from you.

Sorry about that, I just got a bit peeved by your post. The calling it "abuse" and the ignorance of possible problems outside of your favoured setting and the bringing up a completely unrelated issue (deferred armies) and such. Also you where quite harsh in your statements about it not being possible to win via the auto setting, a fact that you where completely wrong about.



wolfpack0530 wrote:Do you think it would be possible to only offer auto for standard games?

Possible yes but not likely. I would think that such an option would be universal or not introduced at all.



wolfpack0530 wrote:How would it negatively effect Standard games?

None of the FS issues with "auto completion of objectives" or "instant bonus allocation" are applicable but instead it would sometime make it a tactical mess as it really is a deadbeat that doesn't disappear. Sure you don't have the 3*24 hours wait but instead you have to calculate for the players return indefinitely without knowing if he ever will return.


wolfpack0530 wrote:Do you agree that it is a disadvantage to have your allotment distributed evenly amoung all your terts vs deferring them and getting to place two turns worth of armies where you want them?

No I don't.
Getting your armies according to the bonuses or number of territs at the specific time and having them placed on the board bolstering your defence and ready to attack when you do get back versus getting them according to the current bonuses and territs and all dumped on one territ having to wait a turn to be able to use them for attacks. I'm very sure that the current deferred armies scheme is not even close to being as kind to the player missing turns. Especially when you consider that the current deadbeat rule means you can only miss 2 rounds while the auto suggestion would mean you could go on indefinitely without having to bother about the game.



wolfpack0530 wrote:And lastly, I still think it would be nice for people who know that they will be away from the internet for a period of time in the future. I had a guy that i played in the mega tourney wrath of aragon, and his family took him on vacation, and he deadbeated like 30 games. His points went from like 1600 to 600. I personally dont care about the points very much, but it seems like alot of people on CC do, so I felt bad for him.

Having someone that uses an auto option during prolonged times but doesn't play the game (merely get his armies deployed) does not benefit the ones that do show up to take their turns in any way. I would not want such a player in my games.



wolfpack0530 wrote:But i still dont fully understand your position.

I have addressed some points above but the one I see as the biggest problem (outside the FS specific ones) is that this suggestion would be used by very few people.
*The new recruit deadbeats would never use it as they rarely learn anything about any feature other than joining games (and the occasional one that does would just be deploying indefinitely and be a pain to kill off).
*The emergencies/unforeseen/shit happens deadbeats would never use it as it has to be set in advance and non-planning is what defines this group.
*The "I'll be away a short while/have limited internet access" crowd (business trip, weekend holiday and such) would rarely use it as the loss of "their" 24 hours mean they lose any chance they have of possibly taking their turn and also as their turn is insta done it might mean that they will miss several turns in a short time (due to their opponents getting a free run) putting them at a disadvantage.

The only ones I can see using this regularly is the ones that know that their 3*24 hours isn't enough for them to not deadbeat and I'm not sure I neither think they deserve this nor that there are enough people in this situation to warrant a change.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby wolfpack0530 on Thu May 28, 2009 11:07 am

Wow Thezzarus,

Very nice of you to take the time to respond. I guess all in all, i am coming around to your side of the issue. I know that personally I have never had a need for the auto button, and i dont think i will in the future.

On the surface though, i thought it may be a neat idea, but you have shown me alot of inherent flaws. Thanks for being patient and reasonable in this discussion. Good luck in your games, see you on the battlefield.
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu May 28, 2009 12:50 pm

wolfpack0530 wrote:Good luck in your games, see you on the battlefield.


And the same to you... Image
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Re: Auto Turn Take

Postby Akenzua on Thu May 28, 2009 1:38 pm

That is a good idea, I came here to make a suggestion similar to yours, now I don't have to.
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