No dice games [REJECTED]

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Re: No dice games

Postby ZeekLTK on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:59 pm

I think if you were to play without dice then you would need to have specialized maps which can give defenders an advantage at certain points and attackers an advantage at others in order to make it so it's not just simply "first to get a bonus is going to win because they will simply be able to overpower you with more troops"

For example, having territories in mountains or whatnot could give the defending army a bonus - you have to spend 2 attackers for every 1 defender to take it (or even 3-1 for very tough attacks). Then, even if your opponent gets a bonus, you still have a chance if you can take up some defensible positions.

Otherwise, I don't see how it's possible to play if EVERY attack produces the same results (1-1 for each side). If you have a spot in the game like this:

A-B-C-D and I have 3 armies at each A and B, and you have 3 at each C and D then this is what happens:

I drop 3 on my side of the border: 3-6-|-3-3
I attack: 6-3 = 3, I have to leave 1 and advance 2, I can't advance further: 3-1-2-|-3

you drop 3 on your side: 3-1-2-|-6
you attack: 6-2 = 4, have to leave 1 behind: 3-1-|-3-1
you attack again: 3-1 = 2, leave 1 behind: 3-|-1-1-1
you can't advance further

I drop 3 on mine: 6-|-1-1-1
I attack: 6-1 = 5, leave 1 behind: 1-4-|-1-1
I attack again: 4-1=3, leave 1 behind: 1-1-2-|-1
I can't advance because I don't have enough to both kill you and take the territory

you drop 3: 1-1-2-|-4
you attack: 4-2=2, leave 1 behind: 1-1-|-1-1
you can't attack any more

I drop 3: 1-4-|-1-1
I attack: 4-1=3, leave 1 behind: 1-1-2-|-1
I still can't attack any further

now we are stuck in an infinite loop and neither of us can win. So the only difference maker would be bonuses. But that is completely dependent on luck too, because, as shown above, the only way to gain territory is to start before the other player (luck) or if you are dropped in a favorable position to get a bonus before the other player can stop you (also luck).

So going 1-1 on every attack is still going to come down to luck, just a different kind of luck rather than rolling dice.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby agentcom on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:10 pm

Great explanation Zeeks. I have EDITED the OP to link to your post and a similar one that I made a while back.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby Frogmanx82 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:35 am

I'm also sad that this is rejected. I played many many games with no dice. It was the preferred style for my group of friends. To anyone who commented without every trying it, you just don't know what your talking about. If there are software issues, that's a legitimate objection. To say the gameplay isn't fun, doesn't work, or is still just luck, well you just never tried it.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby nicestash on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:29 pm

Frogmanx82 wrote:I'm also sad that this is rejected. I played many many games with no dice. It was the preferred style for my group of friends. To anyone who commented without every trying it, you just don't know what your talking about. If there are software issues, that's a legitimate objection. To say the gameplay isn't fun, doesn't work, or is still just luck, well you just never tried it.

It might be fun, but it's not Risk.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby Fazeem on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:03 pm

nicestash wrote:
Frogmanx82 wrote:I'm also sad that this is rejected. I played many many games with no dice. It was the preferred style for my group of friends. To anyone who commented without every trying it, you just don't know what your talking about. If there are software issues, that's a legitimate objection. To say the gameplay isn't fun, doesn't work, or is still just luck, well you just never tried it.

It might be fun, but it's not Risk.

But that is the thing neither is this site it is ConquerClub. While it is true some of the basic concepts are the same the actual gameplay, variations and dynamics is quite different and evergrowing here. Risk is far more limited and does not have the diversity this site offers. While I do think that all the arguments have been extremely gorunded I can see why there would reject this idea. Although I can see a simple solution that is already partially inplace for the concern about a indefinite dead lock would be to make all games of this type round limited. BUt I do not forsee any solutions to the rest of the major concerns nor would I most likely play this setting to often if it were available(NOt saying anything major I rarely play assassin or trench).
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby spiesr on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:25 pm

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Troop for Troop

Postby Nucker on Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:32 pm

Troop for Troop (also known as “no dice”)

Basically the “element of luck” has been over escalated or added to games of strategy to the point where strategy itself is adversely affected.

A natural element of luck exists in all games as in life; just by the actions of others and self, regardless of added luck features such as cards and dice (which tend to multiply upon each other)

I am putting forward the case of troop for troop as an option in Conquer Club in the most earnest fashion I can. I know it has been posted before, several times by both myself and by others only to be rejected as out of hand. And as out of the spirit of the game.

I would like to address this issue of unreasonable rejection (or knee jerk reaction) first.

As a site that has advanced options on game play like fog and trench not to mention deployment and team play and style and object of play, it is incredible that the troop for troop option has not been explored long, long ago; given its use in play around the world. Admittedly, it is not wide spread but it is well known.

The spirit of the game is encapsulated in winning a 6 player chess game, adding the extra feature of using or manipulating another player against yet another. (Also adding to natural luck factors). In other words, the spirit of the game is to be the ultimate General. The dice actually detracts from this model and does not really add to it.

To be clear on the knee jerk reaction I am NOT advocating the removal of dice, but the addition of the option of removing them in a troop for troop replacement.

For those not familiar with troop for troop, it works like this:

All territories start with 1 troop and not 3 (to avoid thinning by players playing first and elimination thereafter). Players then have a first round deployment where no player can attack but can deploy their 3 or applicable troops anywhere on their territories. Then the game continues as per normal in the second round.

So to take a territory you need two more troops than the defender, eg 5 vs 3 = 3 off both and 1 troop on the attacking territory and one on the defeated territory, now both belonging to the attacker. Obviously any additional/surplus troops of the attacker can be advanced or divided between the territories, as the player sees fit.

This way, players can plan attacks more accurately and not have to change strategies mid attack due to excessive luck either way on the dice (it is also not fun to win a game due to having too much luck).

This current necessity to change strategies in the dice format on CC has radically altered games and moods in many games I have witnessed. “f*ck the Dice!” is a common CC curse, and a justified one!

In low numbers, up to about 12 in extreme cases but reasonably at 7 to 9 against 3, the outcomes of two identical games with the double against going in opposite favor is radically different. So much so, that the luckiest player is most often the winning player.

In large maps it is possible to factor against excessive luck but is still frustrating and game changing, but in smaller maps the luck is nearly always the deciding factor, especially in the race for bonuses. The same is true of run games where there are lots of neutrals the luckiest gets to the bonuses first.

Having played a few of your maps in real life using troop for troop some of the neutral numbers will have to be adjusted to accommodate for the 1 troop start position, but not much and a lot not at all.

I am very serious about getting this option added as a feature due to my passion for the game and need to have a more balanced option for players of like mind (of which there are many) and am going to lobby players on this issue until we have reasonable solution.

The dice could still be used for ease of programming use; just set at 1 for 1.

I am certain it will add to your already comprehensive site and will win players from competitor sites and keep players that have come to loath the dice in the game. 

Regards
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby spiesr on Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:19 pm

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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby Sey69 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:40 pm

As long as:

1) starting players remain randomly chosen,
2) random seeding for deployment remains random,
3) everything else that should be random remains as such,

I'll rely on my luck everyday of the week. Sorry, no sale here.

note: an outstanding General shall overcome the element of luck and win... regardless. ;)
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby hansinafrica on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:02 pm

If only that were true Sey69, but it's unfortunately not. The dice dictate the victor.
Yes, you must put the right strategies in order, but at the end of the day, it's down to luck whether they succeed or not.
Having played Risk for many years, I assure you that not only is "no dice" play possible, but it makes a mockery of the silly gamble you involve yousrself in. I have enjoyed every game much more (regardless of position), playing no dice.
Those who speak of it being impossible, haven't done it, or are such inferior strategists that they require the luck element.
It works, it works far better than the roll of the dice, and when you win, you can honestly say "I am the victor," rather than "I think I had a good game plan, but the dice helped me."
Similarly, a loss can be taken responsibility for, "my strategy or fellow player manipulation was inferior" rather than "I was unlucky with the dice."
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby hansinafrica on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:11 pm

"Troop for Troop" as Nucker calls it is a superior game to the gamble of CC, and while I do enjoy the tinkering along with the dice, I can never take any game seriously, and by extention, can't take CC seriously. Until the true maths of troop for troop is introduced, this will remain for me a form of blind folded poker, a random rollercoaster of wins and losses over which you have little power and therefore can appreciate little reward.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby Robert44 on Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:55 pm

Guys, can we not discuss this before rejecting? I've been part of CC for almost 3 years and too many times I've seen how the dice don't always make sense, e.g. how can a guy with 6 troops take down my "stack" of 11 men?

If it is set as a game option (just like trench, fog of war, etc.) then I see no harm in implementing it. In fact, I think it can only enrich CC and the types of games we can play. Maybe the topic and Nucker's suggestion needs to be investigated further, the details of the implementation sorted out to give each player a fair chance of winning at the beginning of the game, but let's spend some time discussing it, or even put it to a vote if necessary.
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:48 am

Robert44 wrote:Guys, can we not discuss this before rejecting? I've been part of CC for almost 3 years and too many times I've seen how the dice don't always make sense, e.g. how can a guy with 6 troops take down my "stack" of 11 men?

If it is set as a game option (just like trench, fog of war, etc.) then I see no harm in implementing it. In fact, I think it can only enrich CC and the types of games we can play. Maybe the topic and Nucker's suggestion needs to be investigated further, the details of the implementation sorted out to give each player a fair chance of winning at the beginning of the game, but let's spend some time discussing it, or even put it to a vote if necessary.


This has been discussed. Notice 420+ posts. Can you describe to me how a game on a map with no bonuses would end? Yes, we do have one. (Circus Maximus).
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby agentcom on Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:53 pm

I had forgotten about Circus Maximus. Great point. I have added that to the OP along with two other awesome posts ;)
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Re: No dice games [REJECTED]

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:23 pm

Anyone who has ever played Empire xp can vouch for the fact that stalemates occur far less frequently than I have seen in my years on CC.
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Due to current economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
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