NO DICE

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Postby Tieryn on Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:53 pm

Yeah, I agree fruitcake, as an option, I'd find in interesting...

I'd really want the games that are no-dice to have a different coloured background screen tho, so I'm sure which type I'm playing. I too often forget it's chained or adjacent forts... no-dice would throw me unless it was -REAL- easy to know which game was which.

My concern is bigger maps, such as the battle of actium, where you start with heaps of armies, and in order to overcome this, I suggest something like staggered deploys.. In order to overcome the major benefits of going first, the first player only gets 3 deploys... in multi player games, this would step up by 1 deploy each person, 1st-3, 2nd-4, 3rd-5, 4th-6, until you reached standard deployments, and then be ineffectual afterwards.. It's just something that would help reduce that impact of first play, which with 8 beginning deploys, would be hugely impacting in a no-dice game... Perhaps this even for the first 1-2-3 rounds or so in 2 player, again rising by one each time, until standard level is found.

Thoughts?
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Postby BaldAdonis on Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Fruitcake wrote:-It is impossible to know how the enemy is going to respond.
-The idea of this is far more strategic.
-You have to think not just about this move, but the turn next, the turn after that and so on.
-Because of this one still makes errors of judgement.
-One can think something is going to happen, but then the enemy turns and does something completely different, this then changes the whole face of the game

Explain again which of those does not describe checkers or Connect Four.

I made the analogy because all three fall under the domain of combinatorial game theory, so you can apply the same decision structures to any of them. Because it can be shown that the first player can, by taking 3 territories, create an advantage (unless someone drops a bonus, then the game depends on the starting position), the first player should win, as long as they don't make any mistakes.

Maybe you just play against bad players who make illogical moves, so the games don't SEEM to be determined... but they are. At any given time, there is a best move to make (because you can only put your deployment in a finite number of places and make a finite set of attacks to take adjacent territories, so the one which leaves you in the best position is the best move [Risk doesn't fall victim to this, because the attacks are probabilistic, you only know with certain odds which move is best]), so it's not impossible to know how the enemy is going to respond if you assume they will make their best move. If they don't make their best move, then that's even better, because they're in a worse position than they could be.

Let's play a game right now. Since you don't need dice, the entire game can be done by writing down your moves, once you know the starting position. You could play by mail! (like Diplomacy, but with fewer rules)
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Postby nelo on Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:36 am

i agree with fruitcake is an option of a game and just play who wants you getmy vote :lol:
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Postby yeti_c on Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:43 am

BaldAdonis wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:-It is impossible to know how the enemy is going to respond.
-The idea of this is far more strategic.
-You have to think not just about this move, but the turn next, the turn after that and so on.
-Because of this one still makes errors of judgement.
-One can think something is going to happen, but then the enemy turns and does something completely different, this then changes the whole face of the game

Explain again which of those does not describe checkers or Connect Four.

I made the analogy because all three fall under the domain of combinatorial game theory, so you can apply the same decision structures to any of them. Because it can be shown that the first player can, by taking 3 territories, create an advantage (unless someone drops a bonus, then the game depends on the starting position), the first player should win, as long as they don't make any mistakes.

Maybe you just play against bad players who make illogical moves, so the games don't SEEM to be determined... but they are. At any given time, there is a best move to make (because you can only put your deployment in a finite number of places and make a finite set of attacks to take adjacent territories, so the one which leaves you in the best position is the best move [Risk doesn't fall victim to this, because the attacks are probabilistic, you only know with certain odds which move is best]), so it's not impossible to know how the enemy is going to respond if you assume they will make their best move. If they don't make their best move, then that's even better, because they're in a worse position than they could be.

Let's play a game right now. Since you don't need dice, the entire game can be done by writing down your moves, once you know the starting position. You could play by mail! (like Diplomacy, but with fewer rules)


You are correct - if Risk was a 2 player game...

Perhaps this option shouldn't be available for 2 player games?

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Postby Phantom7 on Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:42 am

I am not as good as Fruit at putting a point of view forwards, but I will just say.

I cannot see any reason not to have a no dice option, I have played just about all types and like them. I know loads of people who play this way. Ive never had a problem with any way of playing this game, it is all good fun.

You have my support fruit on this, a great idea. , and a great thread, some serious stuff without the usual stuff that happens.
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Postby HayesA on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:31 am

You got my vote, Fruitcake buddy. I'm bloody sick of losing the game due to omigawd dice rolls. I don't see how dice are the "heart" of the game. I thought it was Risk/Strategy? This would definitely make me want to maybe buy premium, and use Fog of War for all my games.
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Postby Kemmler on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:48 am

Definitely needs tweaking then it might be good... with neutrals it would suck
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Postby Fruitcake on Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:12 pm

Risktaker17 wrote


Been rejected more times than anyone can remember!


Interesting. I was not led to believe this.

I was asked to see what the response would be like to a discussion and a poll.

Perhaps you mean, it has previously died a death due to not being supported. Strangely the voting seems, so far to be quite reasonable.
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Postby Fruitcake on Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:15 pm

Kemmler wrote

Definitely needs tweaking then it might be good... with neutrals it would suck


In what way Kemmler? Seriously. I am interested in why.
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Postby AXE00026 on Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:30 pm

TO view an existing military strategy game, based on movements,negotiations and no dice.... locate the board game "diplomacy"....
A worthy challenge for all game players and a sound basis for an online game.
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Postby billval3 on Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:41 pm

Let's not forget that just because there are dice involved, that does not make Risk a game of chance. It takes a lot of strategic skill to plan a win despite the possibility of having bad dice.

I don't like the concept that 1 army always defeats 1 army because that's not at all like real life. It just seems like you're simplifying the game too much by making that kind of a rule.
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No Dice

Postby dilbertofaus on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:49 am

I'm with you Fruitcake. Adds a different element to the game, and makes the game purely strategic. I think this would give players the option of "the gamble of the die" or a "pure strategy" game.

I personally enjoy the luck of the roll due to the unknown element, but the use of cards as you say would add this option to the pure strategy game.

Like your thinking. Got my vote.
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Re: No Dice

Postby insomniacdude on Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:41 pm

dilbertofaus wrote:Adds a different element to the game, and makes the game purely strategic.


...no it doesn't. It just means the variables of luck have an even bigger impact than before: drop, play order, and (if you're playing with them) cards.
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Postby pascalleke on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 pm

:shock:
maybee its time you find yourself another game to play if you dont like playing risk with the dice :lol:
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Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:05 pm

Fun or not, it still doesn't seem like Risk.
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Postby Risktaker17 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:20 pm

I guess as an option, I think it takes the Risk part out of Risk though
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Postby Audax on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:33 pm

insomniacdude wrote


It just means the variables of luck have an even bigger impact than before: drop, play order, and (if you're playing with them) cards.


How? If you remove one variable, it does not mean other variables suddenly get greater...They still remain the same. The cards are still the same, the drop and the order. They don't suddenly change because dice are not involved.

pascalleke wrote


maybee its time you find yourself another game to play if you dont like playing risk with the dice


Yeah, like risk without dice. Sorry to seem flippant but I really cannot see any real arguement in that statement for or against. Like fruitcake says, the essence of the game is strategy. Luck plays a part. Reduce some of the luck element by removing dice, skill becomes a greater part.

PLAYER57832 wrote


Fun or not, it still doesn't seem like Risk.


That's cool, we are all entitled to an opinion. I think it does. That is my opinion.
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No dice!

Postby God255 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:14 pm

Yeah, that sounds great. Lets have a no dice game option. I'm all for this.
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Postby BaldAdonis on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:33 pm

BaldAdonis wrote:Let's play a game right now. Since you don't need dice, the entire game can be done by writing down your moves, once you know the starting position. You could play by mail! (like Diplomacy, but with fewer rules)

Better yet, head over to forum games, and play there. Then you can figure out your strategies, and it doesn't have to affect anyone who wants to play CC.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:35 pm

I like it :D
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Postby Fruitcake on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:56 pm

BaldAdonis wrote

Better yet, head over to forum games, and play there. Then you can figure out your strategies, and it doesn't have to affect anyone who wants to play CC.


It is interesting that the voting so far shows those who do want this option are rising as fast as the opposite.

I have had many pms from people who have asked how they can help keep pushing this along.

please remember, we are all members, so we all deserve respect and reasonable levelled discourse.

Lastly, your comment is most odd. To say 'it doesn't have to affect anyone who wants to play CC' is EXACTLY what I am saying....that is why I am putting forward as an option!!! I do not go round all those who do or dont want maps I never play on saying go and play your game elsewhere, that would be conceited, condescending, supercilious, self important and insulting...wouldn't it?
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Postby pimphawks70 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:05 pm

THIS IS A RISK WEBSITE AND DICE ARE PART OF RISK... CHANGING THIS WOULD BE RETARDED!!! :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby BaldAdonis on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:08 pm

Fruitcake wrote:Lastly, your comment is most odd. To say 'it doesn't have to affect anyone who wants to play CC' is EXACTLY what I am saying

You're saying you want it to be considered as a game like CC, which is not what I want to see. When I click on your profile and see that you've won x% of games, I don't want those to be no dice games anymore than I want them to be forum mafia or trivia games (or "guess which number I'm thinking of" games), insofar as they give no information about how well you play Risk. If you want to play this no dice style, you can do it just as well by posting your moves in the forum (see Forza AZ's Doodle Earth tournament), because you don't need any of the site's Risk capabilities (since you're not playing Risk anymore).
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Postby Audax on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:38 pm

You're saying you want it to be considered as a game like CC, which is not what I want to see. When I click on your profile and see that you've won x% of games, I don't want those to be no dice games anymore than I want them to be forum mafia or trivia games (or "guess which number I'm thinking of" games), insofar as they give no information about how well you play Risk.


Wow...how arrogant are you man???? (which is not what I want to see....lol)

Since when was fog of war a risk game???? NEVER until CC.

How do you know what I play to check whether you want to play me....oh yes, you look at the page kindly supplied by the site which shows you!!!!

I am stunned at the sheer obstinate attitude of some...here, get this...the world evolves, the world moves, adapts and changes.

What is being asked for is an option, not something you HAVE to do. If this became an option, you would have to do one thing....click the dice box rather than the no dice box. How difficult is that?

Hear hear Fruitcake...anything I can do to drum up support, you have my resources at your disposal.
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Postby General K on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:56 pm

I voted yes... dice sucks most times in here!
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