No dice games [REJECTED]

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Postby General K on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:56 pm

I voted yes... dice sucks most times in here!
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Postby uzless on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:27 pm

the dice are for sure way too streaky.

Anything to take away the blatant streakiness would be appreciated
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Postby Risktaker17 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:41 pm

No dice sounds like an awful idea, it takes away at a major essence of Risk. I think it will destroy much of the gameplay. I believe it wouldn't be fun, it would be a waste of time

I voted yes as an option because I know there are others with differing views
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Postby Mr_Adams on Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:28 pm

Umm... I believe this has been suggested before, and I supported it. this thread has more momentum, so of corse I'll support it again :D
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Postby BaldAdonis on Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:03 am

Audax wrote:Since when was fog of war a risk game???? NEVER until CC.
Fog of War is used in a lot of Risk games where the capability exists. Every Hasbro computer version has it, and it's not a (drastically) different game, you just lose some information.
How do you know what I play to check whether you want to play me....oh yes, you look at the page kindly supplied by the site which shows you!!!!
My point is about the records of the games. Since this is an entirely different game (not a probabalistic game, but a solvable game), the records should not be combined with your record on real games. The page doesn't sort game types, so it would not be useful.
What is being asked for is an option, not something you HAVE to do. If this became an option, you would have to do one thing....click the dice box rather than the no dice box. How difficult is that?

Hear hear Fruitcake...anything I can do to drum up support, you have my resources at your disposal.
If you actually want to help, why not do something to address the issues against it, instead of shrugging them off as obstinate? You can already play games exactly like this on this site in a place designed for it. It's called Forum Games. Just make a thread, post your map, and make your moves. You don't need any additional support to do it, and you get the added bonus of being able to use new maps before they're quenched.
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Postby DirtyDishSoap on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:09 pm

This would be a great option, and a greater challenge.
Voted yes :D
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Postby Fruitcake on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:48 pm

DirtyDishSoap wrote

This would be a great option


And that is the nub of the matter.

I would never try to deny anyone what they wanted to do, I always try to keep an open mind. This is just an option I have put forward.

So far, it seems many have agreed.
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Postby Paddy The Cat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:56 pm

of course, i have to say no-risk is ALL about the dice, they make it fun, sure losing 10 on 2 sucks, but the thrill of winning 50 on 45 and still having 30 left is awesome

if your looking for a game that is 100 percent strategy, this is not the game for you, go play chess
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Postby TheTheft on Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:06 pm

since it is optional i say yes if you want to play a diceless game then you can if you want to play the old fashioned way then you can
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Postby BaldAdonis on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:23 pm

Fruitcake wrote:So far, it seems many have agreed.
And you're still not addressing any of the issues of people who disagree. That is, me. Suggestions don't go through just because they get 51% of votes.

TheTheft wrote:since it is optional i say yes if you want to play a diceless game then you can if you want to play the old fashioned way then you can

If you want to play no dice, you already can. Make up a game and post your moves. You don't need any dice, so you don't need an actual game. Making it an option only makes the stats that are meant to indicate a player's skill more meaningless. Imagine a game option where you can win 100% of the games where you have a better drop (as well as a portion of the ones where you don't, since not everyone plays optimally), and you'd never have to think about the moves. You could write a script to win games for you while you sleep. It wouldn't take much work to solve this game type on a map like Doodle Earth, where there are only 17 million starting positions (in a 2 player game), and only one system of moves. Throw in a script that automakes speed games and you'd be set.
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Postby Fruitcake on Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:04 am

BaldAdonis wrote

And you're still not addressing any of the issues of people who disagree. That is, me. Suggestions don't go through just because they get 51% of votes.


Goodness..that is a pretty subjective statement....the words 'that is me' kinda cut you out as someone who really has problems here. I have addressed many issues. Some by pm, some on this board. Your writing is starting to sound like the strident harpie stamping her feet because she is not getting her way....notwithstanding the way you are so strident in tone I have this to say.

You keep mentioning standard moves etc etc...do you ever play mulit player, if so, how can you keep shouting about standard moves, programs etc etc...

Not 51% but 56% (as at time of writing, obviously the yes camp is growing) reckon this would be good. Your statement about 100% this, drop that, scripts etc is truly disturbing. Furthermore, your quote above has a ring of someone who would not accept the vote of the majority ever...if it disagreed with your version of the world....odd really. Yet you demand I pay your questions attention...

I have already said. I play this a great deal all ready. I must be the most stupid man around, obviously nowhere near your intellectual level, because I have never managed to work all this out after 25 years+ of playing non dice games.
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Postby The dudley on Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:14 am

I have just joined cc what a great place. love playin no dice games. i'm with you mr fruitcake great idea for a great place
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Postby Paddy The Cat on Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:30 am

i think were missing the point here-yes it sounds great to remove luck from the game because then youll win games based on skill only blah blah blah....

you know what the problem is? YOU CANT ELIMINATE LUCK FROM THE GAME... this only puts even more emphasis on drop-whoever starts in best position to take a bonus would inevitably win almost every game... and what about the better players on the site... STALEMATE... games that would, in the most literal sense, never end... not to mention many strategies are based on probability and better odds...

its not a good idea, really-it sounds nice and fair, but it causes too many problems-im sure the inventors of risk considered this when making the game... it just doesnt work..
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Postby BaldAdonis on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:32 pm

Fruitcake wrote:BaldAdonis wrote

And you're still not addressing any of the issues of people who disagree. That is, me. Suggestions don't go through just because they get 51% of votes.


Goodness..that is a pretty subjective statement....the words 'that is me' kinda cut you out as someone who really has problems here. I have addressed many issues. Some by pm, some on this board. Your writing is starting to sound like the strident harpie stamping her feet because she is not getting her way....notwithstanding the way you are so strident in tone I have this to say.

You keep mentioning standard moves etc etc...do you ever play mulit player, if so, how can you keep shouting about standard moves, programs etc etc...

Not 51% but 56% (as at time of writing, obviously the yes camp is growing) reckon this would be good. Your statement about 100% this, drop that, scripts etc is truly disturbing. Furthermore, your quote above has a ring of someone who would not accept the vote of the majority ever...if it disagreed with your version of the world....odd really. Yet you demand I pay your questions attention...

I have already said. I play this a great deal all ready. I must be the most stupid man around, obviously nowhere near your intellectual level, because I have never managed to work all this out after 25 years+ of playing non dice games.


Have a look at this proposal. My point about 51% (or 56% if you wish) is that even though you have a majority of votes, before something that radically changes the game gets implemented, it goes through a process to modify it and answer problems that people address. You're not helping your cause by ignoring these issues when people bring them up. So, could you just answer my questions, and keep your personal attacks in flame wars?
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Postby Phantom7 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:17 pm

Glad to see this idea seems to have some momentum behind it. Not really playing anymore so bad had my dice got.

if i could anser you a bit baldadonis. you dont seem to want this no matter what. others are saying they do. i have played withput dice for ages and I confrim that quite often just because you have the easiest bonus doesnt mean you always win, just like the game with dice.

When playing with more than one person anything can happen. an example being a game i played not long ago, the board power had missed a build up across the world and got clobbered, only by a coule of armies but it broke the bonus and got the game back on an even keel.

You say answer questions, but I see few, nearly all you say is just anti the idea because you dont agree with it. why should we go and play in a corner because you cant play it, too bad. more people seem to want it than not so far so why dont we see what comes of the poll then lets talk about whether there are slimy little tricks that can be pulled.

I repeat, my experience of playing this is it requires a lot more thought, less luck, thinking ahead, planning and more strategy.

It comes as no surpirse to me that many of the officer ranks here play wiithout cards and limited troop movements. why is this, could it be that they try to reduce the luck elemant as much as possible? and place more emphasis on having to really think about things.
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Postby BaldAdonis on Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:52 pm

Phantom7 wrote:if i could anser you a bit baldadonis. you dont seem to want this no matter what.

When playing with more than one person anything can happen. an example being a game i played not long ago, the board power had missed a build up across the world and got clobbered, only by a coule of armies but it broke the bonus and got the game back on an even keel.

You say answer questions, but I see few


I don't care if you do play it. I don't care if people play forum mafia, or trivia. But winning any of those is different from winning a CC game. It shouldn't go on the same record, and there's already a place for those games. You don't need dice, you aren't using the site's capabilities, you can already play the game by posting your moves: if you want to do it, you can.

When playing with one other person, the game is solvable. How do you expect to reconcile that? Would you block 2 player no dice games? A lot of dice complaints come from 1v1 games, so telling them that they can't play without doesn't help (since players complaining and the dice ad-hoc is the basis for this idea). Plus, every game is eventually a two player game, and from that point on, the outcome is decided.
Or, if you decide to keep 2 player games, what would you do if someone wrote a script to beat the game for them?

I'm not trying to say it wouldn't be a good idea, but what is proposed right now has flaws. The game you want to play can already be played, nothing needs to change, the people who want to play it just have to do it.
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Postby Twill on Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:58 pm

Calm down folks, no need to get so aggressive about it, it's just a suggestion :)
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Postby Fruitcake on Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:44 am

Quite right Twill.

As I have tried to ensure everyone has understood, this is about seeing whether there is a need for such an option. I have tried to avoid getting into depth, after all, there will be much discussion about the rules if this goes further. Many have already pm'd me asking about, and offering ideas on, the rules in play.

Let us hope that those who wish/hope/try to stop it becoming another option, which as a consumer I always believe is good, after all, they have their opinions, can be patient, just as I also hope, that as consumers, we get the option. More options=more choice=better service all round.
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Postby Top Dog on Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:33 pm

I say no, the dice is the WHOLE point of CC.

Another site, another game...
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Postby insomniacdude on Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:14 pm

Fruitcake wrote:Let us hope that those who wish/hope/try to stop it becoming another option, which as a consumer I always believe is good, after all, they have their opinions, can be patient, just as I also hope, that as consumers, we get the option. More options=more choice=better service all round.


But you already have the option.

BaldAdonis wrote:...there's already a place for those games. You don't need dice, you aren't using the site's capabilities, you can already play the game by posting your moves: if you want to do it, you can.
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Postby Fruitcake on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:20 am

insomniacdude wrote

But you already have the option.

BaldAdonis wrote:
...there's already a place for those games. You don't need dice, you aren't using the site's capabilities, you can already play the game by posting your moves: if you want to do it, you can.


This is not the option we are posing.

I really do not wish to get bogged down with a couple of posters who have an entrenched position on this. Most seem to want to the option. All those who have pm'd me offering advice on rules etc. have all said they would want it as a full option because they feel it is an intrinsic part of the game. It has been pointed out to me that certain game boards and rules on those boards, played on here have little resemblance to the core game. I agree with them. I also agree with them that this option does keep to the spirit of the core game, which is strategy, not dice.

It says on the original board game " A game of strategy and skill" it says on the front page of this very site "stay up all night strategizing their next move". In neither of these cases does it say that dice are at the core of the game.

Why don't we just see who wants it.

For the record, some boards played here have an average of less than 50 games going at any one time. Classic has around 3,000. It is also interesting to note that research has shown me that many more senior ranks specialise in just one board, some on the same boards mentioned previously where the diversity from the core has gone yet further. Do we stop them because so few play on them? No. Why? Because as consumers it is all about choice. There are many who want to play nil dice games, and have points awarded or deducted for winning or losing that style of play. With respect, I cannot see your rationale for saying to these people (who are still in the majority as the votes keep ticking over) that they should go into a corner and play without giving them what they want…your argument that it detracts from the core of the game is spurious in our opinion, however, we do not say to you, we will stop you from playing whatever style or game you wish to play. You, on the other hand do. That is most odd to all of us.

Your negative comments have been noted, everyone will have an opportunity to have input should this go to the next stage.

As Twill said: it's just a suggestion
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Postby Phantom7 on Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:57 am

Fruitcake said

Why don't we just see who wants it.


Thats right. There is a long way to go in this yet.
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Postby insomniacdude on Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:19 am

Fruitcake wrote:insomniacdude wrote

But you already have the option.

BaldAdonis wrote:
...there's already a place for those games. You don't need dice, you aren't using the site's capabilities, you can already play the game by posting your moves: if you want to do it, you can.


This is not the option we are posing.


Right. It's the option BaldAdonis is posing, which you and anybody else who wished to play this way can utilize.

I really do not wish to get bogged down with a couple of posters who have an entrenched position on this. Most seem to want to the option. All those who have pm'd me offering advice on rules etc. have all said they would want it as a full option because they feel it is an intrinsic part of the game. It has been pointed out to me that certain game boards and rules on those boards, played on here have little resemblance to the core game. I agree with them. I also agree with them that this option does keep to the spirit of the core game, which is strategy, not dice.

It says on the original board game " A game of strategy and skill" it says on the front page of this very site "stay up all night strategizing their next move". In neither of these cases does it say that dice are at the core of the game.

Why don't we just see who wants it.


I see who wants it. And I still say it's a bad idea. I'm not tearing anybody down, but arguing that it shouldn't be added. Do you want this thread to be filled with nothing but yes-men, so that the idea doesn't develop at all into something truly suitable for the site?

For the record, some boards played here have an average of less than 50 games going at any one time. Classic has around 3,000. It is also interesting to note that research has shown me that many more senior ranks specialise in just one board, some on the same boards mentioned previously where the diversity from the core has gone yet further. Do we stop them because so few play on them? No. Why? Because as consumers it is all about choice. There are many who want to play nil dice games, and have points awarded or deducted for winning or losing that style of play. With respect, I cannot see your rationale for saying to these people (who are still in the majority as the votes keep ticking over) that they should go into a corner and play without giving them what they want…your argument that it detracts from the core of the game is spurious in our opinion, however, we do not say to you, we will stop you from playing whatever style or game you wish to play. You, on the other hand do. That is most odd to all of us.


Never said you couldn't play it. My argument is that it shouldn't be ranked with the rest of the site's gameplay. It should run on the same point system, because the gameplay is TOO different. It is unique, interesting, and compelling to be sure, but it does not belong in the point/ranking system. In fact, I quite blatantly agreed that anybody who wants to play this CAN play it - in the games forum, out of the point system currently in place on this site.

Options are a good thing as long as they stay relevant to the site. I simply think this isn't relevant to the site, and no argument produced so far in this thread has been able to convince me. I'm an open-minded guy though, so if it finally pops up I'll be sold. I'm just waiting to be sold.
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Postby Fruitcake on Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:31 pm

insomniacdude wrote


My argument is that it shouldn't be ranked with the rest of the site's gameplay.


And we think it should be, simple as that. As I keep saying, let's wait until this has gone further, or not. Until then, this argument is spurious. I have put it forward as an option, let the members decide.
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Postby KristianMD on Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:14 pm

Simply to put I think that there should be games with no dice.


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Chances of that happening are 1 against 7776 or 0.0128600823%

Look I know you think the dice are a vital part of the game, but unrealistic things happen waaaaay to often. I`m tired of it. I wish the lotery was so easy to win.

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