Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

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Re: Eliminate deferred troops for missing rounds

Postby chapcrap on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:47 pm

This won't happen. Still.
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Re: Eliminate deferred troops for missing rounds

Postby agentcom on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:57 am

MOVED to rejected and MERGED with a lengthy post on the matter.

Unfortunately our MERGING technology sorts all posts by timestamp. Therefore, there are actually a couple conversations going on at this point. Please refer to the title of a given post to see which is which. This is what happens when the mods in the suggestions forum don't catch parallel conversations happening at the same time. Our apologies.
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby ogro on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:08 am

I think we are talking about two different topics here.
First, there is the fact of the real need of people to be allowed to miss turn for several legal reasons.
In my opinion there is no problem here.

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

If miss a turn, come back to the game, but not with defferred troops.
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby agentcom on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:54 pm

I'm glad we've had more discussion on this point, as many users haven't seen all the reasoning behind how the rules stand now. If you'd like to do more reading on the subject, see viewtopic.php?f=471&t=136056. That's where this thread will be in a couple days, but since there's some developed discussion here, I'll let it run for a tad longer.
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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops

Postby agentcom on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:52 pm

Additionally, I have STICKIED a couple of the more common rejected suggestions for ease of both moderators and users.
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby Robert The Red on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:04 am

ogro wrote:I think we are talking about two different topics here.
First, there is the fact of the real need of people to be allowed to miss turn for several legal reasons.
In my opinion there is no problem here.

The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

If miss a turn, come back to the game, but not with defferred troops.


Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby darth emperor on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:38 pm

First of all, thanks to agentcom to give us the post where it was discussed the missing turn, after reading it all (well not all, since the start of the current) to see if there was a good reason to remove defferred troops, I found that NONE of them were valid, and that 95% of the reasons of why they are invalid, are explained in the post that I made two pages ago.

Second, I wasn't planning to post in this thread anymore, because I don't find any point to it, as the admin himself said that it wasn't going to change, because the OP only read what he wants, and because most of people who wrote here are against defferred troops.

But based on the lasts posts, and things written in the main topic, I want to add 3 little things that are not touched here, or are touched briefly. So after this post, in this 3 pages you'll have a good summary, of 31 full pages. All that has been discussed in the main topic is summarized here, so you won't find anything new there, that is not already here. So let's go to the 3 main points.

First point ->People are saying that missing turn is getting and advantage. So I'll be glad to play anyone 100 games, with thecondition that everytime you lose 2 of 3 turns. I'm sure that out of 100 you'll win only 5, and I still think that 5 is a big number. (Btw Robert the Red, I'm still waiting for your reply of a team game where you and your partner will miss turns)

Second point ->
ogro wrote:The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

This was quite mentioned in the main thread (well, practically Queen Herpes was practically the one who mentioned, but she post it too many times)
And ogro, this statement is incorrent in two ways:
1- This are not new troops, this are old, because it was supposed to be in the last round. I get your point that they are new in the board, but understand that this aren't new because you already knew of them.
Well this point is a tecnicallity, so it doesn't matter much, the important point is the next one
2- This is completly wrong, not only they are on risk, but this troops are the ones with the biggest risk. Because if your deploy gets down you'll loose this troops. Example: In classic map, you have 12 regions and Oceania bonus, that means that at the start of your turn, you would 3+2+1=6 troops. Let's say that you decide to miss a turn to "protect" this 6 troops. Now someone, breaks you Oceania, that means that instead of 12 troops that you would have had (6 in two turns) you'll only get half. You lost 6 troops, and they didn't get a chance to defend themselves with the dices, therefore the troops that weren't at risk is not yours but of your opponent, who could get his objective easily.

Third and last point ->
Robert The Red wrote:Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.

Well, I won't mention that your premise of getting rid of defferred troops is that were used for gaining advantage (but, of course by saying that I won't mention, I mentioned ;) )
Well, it's only 30 page the main thread, I won't call that "everyone moaning". But is true that everyone is moaning in this forum, but about the dice.
People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.
But let's get back on topic, as I was saying the third point is:
How do you know that? How can you be sure, that it will only have positive outcome apart from "I believe"? Maybe people will say "I missed a turn, so there's no way I can recover my position..." (as deffered troops helps you to try to recover your previous position. Because as many said, if you miss a turn is a very big punishment that can cost you the game, and if you don't have deffered troops that is even bigger). "Well, as I can't recover I'll just miss my turns till I get out of the game". So you'll be waiting for an opponent who decides to miss 3 turns, or even worst "as I already don't have any chance because of missing a turn without deffered troops, I'll suicide and make the game worst to everyone".... so here taking out the deffered troops, you are discouraing to people who miss their turn to come back at the game. And that's not positive.

Also, let's take a final example of why missing turns is a hard punishment to the one who misses the turn
Game 11351494. This game, was red's victory, who would have win in one turn. But what happen? red missed a turn by mistake. And green took advantage of that missed turn. In point of fact, if red hadn't had the deffered troops, it would have been green's victory. So yes, a game that was practically winned, was going to be lost if red didn't had deffered troops, would have been lost (also, if red took her turn she would have had 20 troops, but she only got 9 deffered troops). But now, green and red are practically fighiting each other and we don't know who will win. But it was a red sure victory, that without deffered troops would have become a green sure victory (just missing one turn). So I think that red got a very hard punishment for losing one turn.

And with this post, we take a full sumarize of 30 pages, and it's a post longer than expected, sorry about that. If you have read all thank you very much, and even if you tried also thanks (except the OP, who won't try it :lol: ). Jokes asides, I hope this will help to conclude this subject (which I'm sure it won't), or atleast that they try to get new points, and no again and again with the same ones that are already explained very well by dozens of users (also won't happen, but one can dream :P )
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:31 pm

ManBungalow wrote:Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?


General freestyle loophole:

Miss a turn, then go first and get deferred troops as well - very rude - will the loophole ever be closed?

It could just be set that the player missing is counted as the last person to have a turn and therefore locked out (they did have it but missed)?


In general, could deferred troops be limited - e.g. only the basic 3, or maybe just 2 (no bonuses etc)?
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby Robert The Red on Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:15 pm

People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.


Newbies to this club do not i believe have a host of sitters they can call on and if what you say in your quote above is true, that experienced players dont miss turns then i struggle to understand why you are so against the removal of defered troops. Any encouragement we can give newbies or for that matter experienced players to make more effort to take their turns has to to be positive. and if i was in a winning position in a game i certainly would not miss the turn at the very least i would have someone sit my turn. There is no need for defered troops on missed turns, defered troops do nothing to enhance the game. At very least i would suggest a trial with the rule change or add it as a game option under setting and lets see how popular it is.
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Re: Remove Defferred Troops

Postby agentcom on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:34 pm

darth emperor wrote:First of all, thanks to agentcom to give us the post where it was discussed the missing turn, after reading it all (well not all, since the start of the current) to see if there was a good reason to remove defferred troops, I found that NONE of them were valid, and that 95% of the reasons of why they are invalid, are explained in the post that I made two pages ago.

Second, I wasn't planning to post in this thread anymore, because I don't find any point to it, as the admin himself said that it wasn't going to change, because the OP only read what he wants, and because most of people who wrote here are against defferred troops.

But based on the lasts posts, and things written in the main topic, I want to add 3 little things that are not touched here, or are touched briefly. So after this post, in this 3 pages you'll have a good summary, of 31 full pages. All that has been discussed in the main topic is summarized here, so you won't find anything new there, that is not already here. So let's go to the 3 main points.

First point ->People are saying that missing turn is getting and advantage. So I'll be glad to play anyone 100 games, with thecondition that everytime you lose 2 of 3 turns. I'm sure that out of 100 you'll win only 5, and I still think that 5 is a big number. (Btw Robert the Red, I'm still waiting for your reply of a team game where you and your partner will miss turns)

Second point ->
ogro wrote:The second point is that those who miss a turn, come back with a bunch of new troops that were not in risk, as were the troops of the others. That is not fair.

This was quite mentioned in the main thread (well, practically Queen Herpes was practically the one who mentioned, but she post it too many times)
And ogro, this statement is incorrent in two ways:
1- This are not new troops, this are old, because it was supposed to be in the last round. I get your point that they are new in the board, but understand that this aren't new because you already knew of them.
Well this point is a tecnicallity, so it doesn't matter much, the important point is the next one
2- This is completly wrong, not only they are on risk, but this troops are the ones with the biggest risk. Because if your deploy gets down you'll loose this troops. Example: In classic map, you have 12 regions and Oceania bonus, that means that at the start of your turn, you would 3+2+1=6 troops. Let's say that you decide to miss a turn to "protect" this 6 troops. Now someone, breaks you Oceania, that means that instead of 12 troops that you would have had (6 in two turns) you'll only get half. You lost 6 troops, and they didn't get a chance to defend themselves with the dices, therefore the troops that weren't at risk is not yours but of your opponent, who could get his objective easily.

Third and last point ->
Robert The Red wrote:Agreed, it is true we are all likely to miss a turn a some point for whatever reason, but if we knew the troops would not be defered we would make a lot more effort to take our turn. it can only have a positive effect on the game, and i dont believe it would remove the casual nature of the game, plus it would stop everone moaning about it on this forum. wether anyone gains an advantage or not by missing a turn is a mute point. what we need with the rule change is that players will be encouraged to take their turns and help keep the continuity of the play.

Well, I won't mention that your premise of getting rid of defferred troops is that were used for gaining advantage (but, of course by saying that I won't mention, I mentioned ;) )
Well, it's only 30 page the main thread, I won't call that "everyone moaning". But is true that everyone is moaning in this forum, but about the dice.
People ussually (people who has a little of experience in this page) has babysitters, people change mobile numbers with people of the same country in case of emergency, there are also people who has 2-3 permanent babysitters, in different time zones of the world, so they can check if there's only few hours they can take turns, the attedance in average is 98%. Practically are the new users, news users are the ones to miss turns, the most experienced ones ussually don't miss turn, because they already put effort.
But let's get back on topic, as I was saying the third point is:
How do you know that? How can you be sure, that it will only have positive outcome apart from "I believe"? Maybe people will say "I missed a turn, so there's no way I can recover my position..." (as deffered troops helps you to try to recover your previous position. Because as many said, if you miss a turn is a very big punishment that can cost you the game, and if you don't have deffered troops that is even bigger). "Well, as I can't recover I'll just miss my turns till I get out of the game". So you'll be waiting for an opponent who decides to miss 3 turns, or even worst "as I already don't have any chance because of missing a turn without deffered troops, I'll suicide and make the game worst to everyone".... so here taking out the deffered troops, you are discouraing to people who miss their turn to come back at the game. And that's not positive.

Also, let's take a final example of why missing turns is a hard punishment to the one who misses the turn
Game 11351494. This game, was red's victory, who would have win in one turn. But what happen? red missed a turn by mistake. And green took advantage of that missed turn. In point of fact, if red hadn't had the deffered troops, it would have been green's victory. So yes, a game that was practically winned, was going to be lost if red didn't had deffered troops, would have been lost (also, if red took her turn she would have had 20 troops, but she only got 9 deffered troops). But now, green and red are practically fighiting each other and we don't know who will win. But it was a red sure victory, that without deffered troops would have become a green sure victory (just missing one turn). So I think that red got a very hard punishment for losing one turn.

And with this post, we take a full sumarize of 30 pages, and it's a post longer than expected, sorry about that. If you have read all thank you very much, and even if you tried also thanks (except the OP, who won't try it :lol: ). Jokes asides, I hope this will help to conclude this subject (which I'm sure it won't), or atleast that they try to get new points, and no again and again with the same ones that are already explained very well by dozens of users (also won't happen, but one can dream :P )


Darth, I believe this is a good summary of the 30 pages of the debate so far. I have now added 3 more by MERGING this topic with the one I linked to before.
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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

Postby scotthansen1 on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:04 pm

I say get rid of it , you already get 24 hours to take your turn and should not be afforded the luxury of keeping your troops . I've had to many contest in the early rounds lost because of a large stack attacking you and taking your bonus away and then playing catch-up the whole game. I played one game where and opponet missed 10 turns ( 10) days, ridiculous
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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

Postby agentcom on Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:33 pm

Another thread MERGED and the introduction has been edited.
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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

Postby agentcom on Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:03 pm

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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

Postby ZeekLTK on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:55 pm

I think the main gripe with deferred armies is that it allows the player who missed a turn to be extra aggressive on the turn after they've missed - they can attack with more troops than they otherwise would risk, because they know that they have deferred troops to put down as defenders once their attack is over.

So people think maybe if their opponent hadn't missed a turn, they wouldn't have been willing to risk attacking because then they would leave themselves in a vulnerable position. But instead, they get to attack you and then still have a strong defense of the troops that are deferred.

Like let's say you are busying fighting another opponent and you have a border with someone who misses a turn. Let's say you have 8v8 on that border and are getting 4 per turn. Normally, if your opponent drops his 4 there and attacks 12v8, you can then respond to that by hitting whatever he has left on the following turn. However, if he misses a turn and comes back and attacks the 12v8, he then gets to drop EXTRA troops after the battle that he normally wouldn't be able to do.

So let's say in a normal case, attacking 12v8 drops us to 3v2. On a normal turn, him only have 3 armies left is a problem (for him) because I can hit him back with 2+4 = 6 on my turn. However, if he's missed a turn, he drops his extra 4 there after the attack and all of a sudden it's 7v2. Even if I drop on that territory to respond, I'm only able to make it 6v7 - he still has the advantage. That's what makes it "unfair" when it comes to deferred troops, because without those deferred troops (had he attacked me the previous turn he missed), then I would have had the advantage, but now I don't just because he missed a turn.
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Re: Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

Postby spiesr on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm

ZeekLTK wrote:
show
The counter to that is since he wasn't able to attack you on the turn that he missed you could have used your turn that round to either preemptively increase your defenses on that border or make potentially valuable gains elsewhere. So, unless you get dice screwed or fail to anticipate or opponent's return from his absence you should be just a prepared for your opponents attack, or even more so, than you would had he not missed that turn.
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