Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:48 pm

And my argument is that missing a turn is punishment enough. There already is a deterrent. One less turn to attack, retake bonuses, capture spoils, and reinforce. This is a form of cyber-bullying. It transitions cc from a casual game, which I love, to a hardcore game, which I hate.

I may not have played arms race with my family, but I have played many more evolved forms of risk. Creating different boards and rules to play by was pretty much my entire childhood. Never mind the even more evolved games, such as Third Reich, Axis and Allies, Soldier Emperor etc. Playing on CC is a devolution, not an evolution.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby MNDuke on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:44 am

Missing your turn is technically not a punishment. It i a n action and the consequence/punishment would be losing deferments if the game creator so chose that option. Once again the topic is the option of turning deferred troops on/off. By allowing this option, deferred troops would still exist. As mentioned, just because you like having deferred troops available, doesn't mean that others shouldn't be allowed to have the option to turn them on/off. On the original board game, there is no such thing as Fog of war, so should that option be eliminated as well? Humor me and lets say you don't like fog. Would it be right then to say that all games should be sunny just because you don't like fog of war? Should we take that option away from people because of your personal preference? That's essentially what we are talking about here, except replace fog with deferred troops.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:33 pm

The difference is that this option is taking away a fundamental right: the right to have deployed troops proportionally distributed to all players in the game.

It's the CC equivalent of clean water.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby MNDuke on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:52 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:The difference is that this option is taking away a fundamental right: the right to have deployed troops proportionally distributed to all players in the game.

It's the CC equivalent of clean water.


If you miss your turn you are waiving that right. You are saying I don't care and my drop at this time isn't important. I'll just come back and I'll have my troops waiting for me later. You should not be rewarded for such behavior or at the very least, the option to turn off deferred troops should be permitted for those who feel that way. Not every one thinks deferred troops are a right. We are arguing the option for all, not the personal opinion of one, which you fail to see.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:35 am

Ok. I hereby drop down from double disapproval of this suggestion to single disapproval.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby MNDuke on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:46 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok. I hereby drop down from double disapproval of this suggestion to single disapproval.


What does that mean?
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:13 am

MNDuke wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Ok. I hereby drop down from double disapproval of this suggestion to single disapproval.


What does that mean?


It means I support the option you are referring to, but I still disagree with the spelling.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:21 am

My thoughts behind this thread is that it would stop the unbalance of when people miss a turn, get 3 extra troops next turn, then overpower you and win.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby jefjef on Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:48 am

crazymilkshake5 wrote:My thoughts behind this thread is that it would stop the unbalance of when people miss a turn, get 3 extra troops next turn, then overpower you and win.


Deferred troops in team games are often game changers - especially when round 1 turns are missed.. The offender appears and drops a pile on his pard giving him a nice pile to work with. It does at times reward a team to miss a turn in some games on some maps with some drops.

Deferred needs to go - specifically for team games. It can completely skew/change the game.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby jgordon1111 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:32 am

jefjef wrote:
crazymilkshake5 wrote:My thoughts behind this thread is that it would stop the unbalance of when people miss a turn, get 3 extra troops next turn, then overpower you and win.


Deferred troops in team games are often game changers - especially when round 1 turns are missed.. The offender appears and drops a pile on his pard giving him a nice pile to work with. It does at times reward a team to miss a turn in some games on some maps with some drops.

Deferred needs to go - specifically for team games. It can completely skew/change the game.


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Re: Deffered Troops.

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:14 pm

Almost got the spelling right...

I think that this is the best option for them: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=166816
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Re: Differed Troops.

Postby MNDuke on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:32 am

jefjef wrote:
crazymilkshake5 wrote:My thoughts behind this thread is that it would stop the unbalance of when people miss a turn, get 3 extra troops next turn, then overpower you and win.


Deferred troops in team games are often game changers - especially when round 1 turns are missed.. The offender appears and drops a pile on his pard giving him a nice pile to work with. It does at times reward a team to miss a turn in some games on some maps with some drops.

Deferred needs to go - specifically for team games. It can completely skew/change the game.


I don't think deferred troops need to go necessarily. That is a bit extreme or rash, but the option to make them disappear is a damn good solution. I have been saying this for a long time, and still am scratching my head as to why this hasn't happened already.

Likes Chapscraps I would also be in favor of this https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 4&t=166816 as an alternative.
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Remove Defferred Troops

Postby Robert The Red on Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:19 pm

I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby chapcrap on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:06 pm

Already been discussed a lot. This will not happen.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby squishyg on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

You're right, some do use this as a strategy. But conquer club is a casual gaming site that welcomes laid back players who might not log on multiple times per day.

If you feel someone is purposely missing turns to gain an advantage, rate them accordingly and/or foe and move on.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:11 am

How about putting some options in game settings with regard to missed turns, so we can decide for ourselves how we want the game played, even if it just for private games.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby HardAttack on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:02 am

Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby agentcom on Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:03 pm

That sounds unnecessarily harsh (especially your last post). I'm against this suggestion as I have been the others like it. Go look at those if you want the reasons that I and others have said no.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:34 pm

HardAttack wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


A bit too harsh that, there will times when you cant help missing a go, for example i had to unexpextantly go away for a week without much notice so was desparately try to finish games so i would not miss turns. the unexpected can happen to all of us.

but i still sugest it would be a good idea to have an option in game settings on wether you want to allow defered troops even if it is just for private games.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:16 pm

HardAttack wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


That won't be happening. As many many people have said, this is a CASUAL gaming website. If we went under that rule, I would technically be banned twice off the website, because I lost all internet access for 11 days last year, deadbeated out of about 20-30 games, and 3 years ago because of the same thing, although for only 4 days.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:52 am

maybe what should happen then is premiums get the benifit of the doubt. but freemiums do this a lot because they only have 4 games they can play in. maybe a rule added to freemiums stating they must come in every 24 hours to play or there account will be suspended until they purchase premium.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Seulessliathan on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:16 am

HardAttack wrote:i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


let´s have a look at some numbers:

Username:
HardAttack
Games:
6459 completed
Attendance:
99% of turns taken

let´s say you play 10 turns in average per game, then you have taken 64590 turns so far. Attendance 99% means you have missed 1% of your turns, that makes in total 645,9 missed turns. We can round that down because more likely your turn attendance is near to 95,5 , then you still missed 323 turns. (I guess 99% means you are between 98,5-99,5, because with more than 99,5 it would say 100%)

If you have enough money to buy 300+ times premium, maybe you want to send me cookies? :D
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby darth emperor on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:33 am

I still can't understand how people say that you can gain advantage by missing turn. Before yes, but now??? It works better to take your turn deploy and end your turn without moving at all, than missing a turn.

If you say something like "he missed two turns so I left him alone, thinking that he'll miss the third turn, but he came back and took the advantage, that's so ufair". Allow me to tell you, that this is your fault for not taking the proper measures. When someone misses a turn, it's like saying "I'm not at home and I left my door open, take all what you can. If you wait, I'll come back to my house with the police and they'll arrest you"

Take the classic game, if someone helds the Europe bonus and misses a turn, it won't matter if he is holding the bonus or not, the important is that when he comes back, the computer will see if he CURRENTLY has bonus or not, if he has no bonus it will say 3 troops x 1 missed turns = 3 more troops. Instead if he didn't lost his turn he would have recieved 8 troops (assuming he still had the bonus). If he misses a turn and you let him hold the bonus, it will say 8 troops x 1 missed turn = 8 troops. That's totally your fault.

And also if you miss your turn, you don't get the chance for spoil (and more in Flat Rate games where is important to get spoil EVERY round), and in games like Feudal Map where there are auto bonus, missing a turn, will not give you back that auto bonus.

Therefore, missing a turn only gives you disadvantage. There's no way you'll gain something missing a turn, that you could have done by simply deploying your troops in that turn.

But let's explore a little, how can you get some advantage

There are only 4 ways that you could gain advantage by missing a turn:

->In games where there are negative autobonuses, like dust bowl, or Age of Realms 2

Reply: I get it, the idea is not to loose the quantity of troops, but you'll lose it anyways after you begin a turn, and in most cases you are going to lose 1 troop for one negative region, and if you have only 1 troop there you won't loose anything.
So yes you can get some advantage, but is so minimun that it can't be exploited decently.



->In games where there are negative bonuses, like Steamworks, or USAapocalipsis.

Reply: The idea here is that, your opponent will break your negative bonus, so when you take your turn you get more troops. But if this happens, is the samething as the Europe bonus I said early, your opponent was silly enough to break it, and therefore is your opponents fault for doing. Another reason that he breaks you negative bonus might because he can have a bigger advantage breaking your negative bonus, so he can get a higher bonus, or that he wiping you out of the game, so that means he already won. Also this could work, if the negative bonus was very high, but ussually you don't lose more than 3 troop, so there's no much difference.

One way to exploit this, would be in team games, where your teammate breaks the negative bonus. Again the reward is very small to even think about it. And also these is so small, that the is not worth it to do something.


->In nuclear games, where you have 5 spoils, and one of that spoils, will make you autosuicide

Reply: If you reach to that case, you're already dead, doesn't matter if they kill you, you miss turns, or you autonuke yourself. There are few ways that you it can be useful missing turns in this case.

A : That is an assassin game, so if you miss turns, you can get a chance that:

-Someone kills your target by mistake.
-That if you autonuke the game will end, but if you miss 3 turns, the one who had you as a target, will have your target instead, and that doesn't help you at all except that messing a little the game, which can be a little of fun.
-That you have some kind of alliance (secret or not), or you want that one particular wins because he has more points and you'll lose less points, that you get an advantage in tournament games where they ussually eliminate the player who has been killed...


B: That is a team game, and you have many troops in a bottleneck region (like Bankog in Classic), that helps one (or more) teammates (like holding the Aussie bonus, or is his last region). If you nuke, it will come to one troop and the opponents will be able to enter there, so better to make those troops of your teammate than to nuke them.

The problem with this, is that when you are our of the game, and your teammate not only inherits your troops, but also spoils, so he'll have the same problem, unless he has more spoils to choose (like if he had already 5 spoils, so 5+5=10 and he can choose). If he gets enough lucky to cash, without nuking that region and afterwards moving that troops to a safer region, we can say that they took advantage of missing turns.

But, in both cases A and B. The suggestion that the OP gives, doesn't help at all, because this people won't get reinforcements as they won't play their following turn. But nuclear teamgames can be exploited a little more:

C-> In teamgames, where you have 5 regions, and you'll nuke your partner regions where he has his last regions, he'll get a bonus or/and has a big stack. So I'll miss my turn and let my team to move.

Reply: While this is true, this shows your inability to play well the game, as you could have done that before.

-If is his last region, you could have used his turn to move and get more regions. Even if that happened after your teammate played his turn, you could have predicted that with 5 spoils and no choice, this could happen so you should be careful. If you didn't its your fault, and shows that you are not a good player. Learn about that, and don't make the mistake again.
But let's say that you did the mistake, so you miss your turn. By missing your turn, you couldn't help your teammate. Neither by deploying, neither by reinforcment. So your opponents can kill him. If they don't do its their fault. Even if they can't kill him, they could make him unable to move (by predicting that your missed turn is a scheme, which can be easily done if they see your currents games).

-If your partner has a big stack, then is the same case that last region, if your fault not have moved that troops before, or your teammate, to move there after you had 5 spoils, because he didn't saw your spoils even tough he can see them. Or you could have had more comunicattion. This only tells me, that you (or your teammate) doesn't know how to play decently. And yes, mistakes can happen, so if its a mistake you have two options, or be brave and take your mistake, or be a bad sportamanship
player and miss your turn, is not against the rules... you can do it.


-If your partner is getting a bonus, how many turns will you miss so he can get his bonus?? If you don't want to be kicked, the best thing to do is to nuke that region that your teammate has left previously with one region, and the reassault that region. So it makes it kind of stupid to miss turns.
The only way you could use it, would be if you know that the opponent will break the bonus and reach to that region:

D-> Well that's a little hard, but if you do that. That means you atleast know a little bit what you are doing, and this can be quite interesting. It's probably bad sportmanship (or maybe not, this could be a debate but that would be for another post). But here the fault would be from the player who didn't miss the turn (like the Europe case). If you see that your opponent has 5 spoils and missed turn (even if he didn't) you'll diversify your troops atleast in 2 regions, it would be kind of silly not to do it.

So yes, in the cases of C & D you can get advantage by missing turn, but again what the OP proposes won't get rid of the problem, as this is more a problem of nuclear spoils, that to get reinforcements on their following turn.

-> It's an escalating turn, I've got 5 spoils, but the value is too low. If I miss turn, in my next turn the 5 spoils will have enough value, so I'll cash it.

Reply: What is surprising here, is that with 5 spoils, and value getting higher and higher they didn't kill you. Maybe they weren't capable (ex. fog), maybe they couldn't (ex. you had too many troops already), maybe is trench, maybe the aren't decent players...

Whichever is the reason, the first one would be your fault, for not predicting that this would happen, you should have stop when you had 4 spoils or 3, play your turn deploying without assaulting. In escalating people normally wait to have 5 spoils to change, so you could have predict easily how many armies you would get if you trade spoils. If you wait till you have 5 spoils, and then miss a turn, that tells that you are not a good player who can predict such a simple outcome. Futhermore if someone does, this he is doing for the value of the sets, I don't think he'll care much if he gets or not deffered armies, because his intention is to end the game at that turn, by changing set->killing->changign set->kill. He can't use the defered troops till the next round... There's a way that he could use that troops in that round and is simple as not missing a turn. Because you can drop troops and don't assault so you can't get a spoil.

In summary, what I'm saying is that while there are some ways to take advantages of missing a turn, none of them come from the fact that you get deferred armies, but exploiting, in one way or another, the settings maps. Of course this situations are very unlikely, and the advantage can be easily evaded by an average opponent (or that the player who decides to miss the turn, didn't play well and decides to arrenge his noob-mistakes.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby stuboy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:14 pm

I agree that as a casual gaming site it's not always possible for people to log on all the time.

However, for speed games I think anyone who misses 3 goes, not in a row, but 3 rounds altogether should automatically be kicked out of the game.

When you're playing speed games with 8 players at 4 minute rounds, for players to miss multiple times is extremely frustrating. However, just because it's not 3 times in a row, they don't get kicked out.

By kicking people out of speed games after any 3 missed rounds, not consecutive, would ensure that players only join a speed game if they are able to focus on it. If you want a purely casual experience, enter a 24 hour game.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:37 am

darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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