Eliminate Deferred Troops [REJECTED]

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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:11 am

How about putting some options in game settings with regard to missed turns, so we can decide for ourselves how we want the game played, even if it just for private games.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby HardAttack on Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:02 am

Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby agentcom on Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:03 pm

That sounds unnecessarily harsh (especially your last post). I'm against this suggestion as I have been the others like it. Go look at those if you want the reasons that I and others have said no.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:34 pm

HardAttack wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


A bit too harsh that, there will times when you cant help missing a go, for example i had to unexpextantly go away for a week without much notice so was desparately try to finish games so i would not miss turns. the unexpected can happen to all of us.

but i still sugest it would be a good idea to have an option in game settings on wether you want to allow defered troops even if it is just for private games.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:16 pm

HardAttack wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red


i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


That won't be happening. As many many people have said, this is a CASUAL gaming website. If we went under that rule, I would technically be banned twice off the website, because I lost all internet access for 11 days last year, deadbeated out of about 20-30 games, and 3 years ago because of the same thing, although for only 4 days.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:52 am

maybe what should happen then is premiums get the benifit of the doubt. but freemiums do this a lot because they only have 4 games they can play in. maybe a rule added to freemiums stating they must come in every 24 hours to play or there account will be suspended until they purchase premium.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Seulessliathan on Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:16 am

HardAttack wrote:i think ppl who misses turns should be banned from the site giving him the one option to let him/her back in the site that is another premiumship fee to be paid.


let´s have a look at some numbers:

Username:
HardAttack
Games:
6459 completed
Attendance:
99% of turns taken

let´s say you play 10 turns in average per game, then you have taken 64590 turns so far. Attendance 99% means you have missed 1% of your turns, that makes in total 645,9 missed turns. We can round that down because more likely your turn attendance is near to 95,5 , then you still missed 323 turns. (I guess 99% means you are between 98,5-99,5, because with more than 99,5 it would say 100%)

If you have enough money to buy 300+ times premium, maybe you want to send me cookies? :D
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby darth emperor on Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:33 am

I still can't understand how people say that you can gain advantage by missing turn. Before yes, but now??? It works better to take your turn deploy and end your turn without moving at all, than missing a turn.

If you say something like "he missed two turns so I left him alone, thinking that he'll miss the third turn, but he came back and took the advantage, that's so ufair". Allow me to tell you, that this is your fault for not taking the proper measures. When someone misses a turn, it's like saying "I'm not at home and I left my door open, take all what you can. If you wait, I'll come back to my house with the police and they'll arrest you"

Take the classic game, if someone helds the Europe bonus and misses a turn, it won't matter if he is holding the bonus or not, the important is that when he comes back, the computer will see if he CURRENTLY has bonus or not, if he has no bonus it will say 3 troops x 1 missed turns = 3 more troops. Instead if he didn't lost his turn he would have recieved 8 troops (assuming he still had the bonus). If he misses a turn and you let him hold the bonus, it will say 8 troops x 1 missed turn = 8 troops. That's totally your fault.

And also if you miss your turn, you don't get the chance for spoil (and more in Flat Rate games where is important to get spoil EVERY round), and in games like Feudal Map where there are auto bonus, missing a turn, will not give you back that auto bonus.

Therefore, missing a turn only gives you disadvantage. There's no way you'll gain something missing a turn, that you could have done by simply deploying your troops in that turn.

But let's explore a little, how can you get some advantage

There are only 4 ways that you could gain advantage by missing a turn:

->In games where there are negative autobonuses, like dust bowl, or Age of Realms 2

Reply: I get it, the idea is not to loose the quantity of troops, but you'll lose it anyways after you begin a turn, and in most cases you are going to lose 1 troop for one negative region, and if you have only 1 troop there you won't loose anything.
So yes you can get some advantage, but is so minimun that it can't be exploited decently.



->In games where there are negative bonuses, like Steamworks, or USAapocalipsis.

Reply: The idea here is that, your opponent will break your negative bonus, so when you take your turn you get more troops. But if this happens, is the samething as the Europe bonus I said early, your opponent was silly enough to break it, and therefore is your opponents fault for doing. Another reason that he breaks you negative bonus might because he can have a bigger advantage breaking your negative bonus, so he can get a higher bonus, or that he wiping you out of the game, so that means he already won. Also this could work, if the negative bonus was very high, but ussually you don't lose more than 3 troop, so there's no much difference.

One way to exploit this, would be in team games, where your teammate breaks the negative bonus. Again the reward is very small to even think about it. And also these is so small, that the is not worth it to do something.


->In nuclear games, where you have 5 spoils, and one of that spoils, will make you autosuicide

Reply: If you reach to that case, you're already dead, doesn't matter if they kill you, you miss turns, or you autonuke yourself. There are few ways that you it can be useful missing turns in this case.

A : That is an assassin game, so if you miss turns, you can get a chance that:

-Someone kills your target by mistake.
-That if you autonuke the game will end, but if you miss 3 turns, the one who had you as a target, will have your target instead, and that doesn't help you at all except that messing a little the game, which can be a little of fun.
-That you have some kind of alliance (secret or not), or you want that one particular wins because he has more points and you'll lose less points, that you get an advantage in tournament games where they ussually eliminate the player who has been killed...


B: That is a team game, and you have many troops in a bottleneck region (like Bankog in Classic), that helps one (or more) teammates (like holding the Aussie bonus, or is his last region). If you nuke, it will come to one troop and the opponents will be able to enter there, so better to make those troops of your teammate than to nuke them.

The problem with this, is that when you are our of the game, and your teammate not only inherits your troops, but also spoils, so he'll have the same problem, unless he has more spoils to choose (like if he had already 5 spoils, so 5+5=10 and he can choose). If he gets enough lucky to cash, without nuking that region and afterwards moving that troops to a safer region, we can say that they took advantage of missing turns.

But, in both cases A and B. The suggestion that the OP gives, doesn't help at all, because this people won't get reinforcements as they won't play their following turn. But nuclear teamgames can be exploited a little more:

C-> In teamgames, where you have 5 regions, and you'll nuke your partner regions where he has his last regions, he'll get a bonus or/and has a big stack. So I'll miss my turn and let my team to move.

Reply: While this is true, this shows your inability to play well the game, as you could have done that before.

-If is his last region, you could have used his turn to move and get more regions. Even if that happened after your teammate played his turn, you could have predicted that with 5 spoils and no choice, this could happen so you should be careful. If you didn't its your fault, and shows that you are not a good player. Learn about that, and don't make the mistake again.
But let's say that you did the mistake, so you miss your turn. By missing your turn, you couldn't help your teammate. Neither by deploying, neither by reinforcment. So your opponents can kill him. If they don't do its their fault. Even if they can't kill him, they could make him unable to move (by predicting that your missed turn is a scheme, which can be easily done if they see your currents games).

-If your partner has a big stack, then is the same case that last region, if your fault not have moved that troops before, or your teammate, to move there after you had 5 spoils, because he didn't saw your spoils even tough he can see them. Or you could have had more comunicattion. This only tells me, that you (or your teammate) doesn't know how to play decently. And yes, mistakes can happen, so if its a mistake you have two options, or be brave and take your mistake, or be a bad sportamanship
player and miss your turn, is not against the rules... you can do it.


-If your partner is getting a bonus, how many turns will you miss so he can get his bonus?? If you don't want to be kicked, the best thing to do is to nuke that region that your teammate has left previously with one region, and the reassault that region. So it makes it kind of stupid to miss turns.
The only way you could use it, would be if you know that the opponent will break the bonus and reach to that region:

D-> Well that's a little hard, but if you do that. That means you atleast know a little bit what you are doing, and this can be quite interesting. It's probably bad sportmanship (or maybe not, this could be a debate but that would be for another post). But here the fault would be from the player who didn't miss the turn (like the Europe case). If you see that your opponent has 5 spoils and missed turn (even if he didn't) you'll diversify your troops atleast in 2 regions, it would be kind of silly not to do it.

So yes, in the cases of C & D you can get advantage by missing turn, but again what the OP proposes won't get rid of the problem, as this is more a problem of nuclear spoils, that to get reinforcements on their following turn.

-> It's an escalating turn, I've got 5 spoils, but the value is too low. If I miss turn, in my next turn the 5 spoils will have enough value, so I'll cash it.

Reply: What is surprising here, is that with 5 spoils, and value getting higher and higher they didn't kill you. Maybe they weren't capable (ex. fog), maybe they couldn't (ex. you had too many troops already), maybe is trench, maybe the aren't decent players...

Whichever is the reason, the first one would be your fault, for not predicting that this would happen, you should have stop when you had 4 spoils or 3, play your turn deploying without assaulting. In escalating people normally wait to have 5 spoils to change, so you could have predict easily how many armies you would get if you trade spoils. If you wait till you have 5 spoils, and then miss a turn, that tells that you are not a good player who can predict such a simple outcome. Futhermore if someone does, this he is doing for the value of the sets, I don't think he'll care much if he gets or not deffered armies, because his intention is to end the game at that turn, by changing set->killing->changign set->kill. He can't use the defered troops till the next round... There's a way that he could use that troops in that round and is simple as not missing a turn. Because you can drop troops and don't assault so you can't get a spoil.

In summary, what I'm saying is that while there are some ways to take advantages of missing a turn, none of them come from the fact that you get deferred armies, but exploiting, in one way or another, the settings maps. Of course this situations are very unlikely, and the advantage can be easily evaded by an average opponent (or that the player who decides to miss the turn, didn't play well and decides to arrenge his noob-mistakes.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby stuboy on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:14 pm

I agree that as a casual gaming site it's not always possible for people to log on all the time.

However, for speed games I think anyone who misses 3 goes, not in a row, but 3 rounds altogether should automatically be kicked out of the game.

When you're playing speed games with 8 players at 4 minute rounds, for players to miss multiple times is extremely frustrating. However, just because it's not 3 times in a row, they don't get kicked out.

By kicking people out of speed games after any 3 missed rounds, not consecutive, would ensure that players only join a speed game if they are able to focus on it. If you want a purely casual experience, enter a 24 hour game.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:37 am

darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:51 am

darth emperor wrote:I still can't understand how people say that you can gain advantage by missing turn.


This is all I read of your thesis paper, but I agree 100% and was going to say the same exact thing before I came across your post.

It's beyond me how missing a turn is an advantage. They get teh same amount of troops but aren't able to attack with them and run the risk of losing territs/bonuses.

I think people who complain about people who miss turns for tactical reasons just suck at this game.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby ManBungalow on Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:07 am

Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby chapcrap on Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:07 pm

ManBungalow wrote:Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby TheForgivenOne on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:11 pm

chapcrap wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.


Correct.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:10 am

I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.
But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby darth emperor on Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:51 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.


Correct.

And even if still is there, this shouldn't mean that you have to delete the deferred troops, you should arrenge the problem of that map.

Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that


Robert The Red wrote:But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.

No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.

And it seems good to make as many options as possible, but this is not always truth and less in this case
-In many games, people don't miss turn, so making this option is useless for these games.
-More options, means more to code and more chances that there are bugs, and take more time in solve an error. Therefore when they make an option they should do of something that can be more useful.

So either you leave the deffered armies as its, or take them our, or another option, but don't make an option when creating a game for this. (In my opinion, better to leave it as it is now.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby eddie2 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:46 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:Is there still a loophole where you start a manual freestyle 1 vs 1 game on City Mogul and miss the deployment round in order to go first in the second round ?

That's considered abuse if done frequently. I remember a case where the person was warned/noted/something or other stating that it was against the rules.


Correct.


yep what is also correct is that in nuclear spoils players who purposely don't end turn should also be warned noted
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:21 pm

Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that.


I disagree and like many others have seen it used as an advantage.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:30 pm

Robert The Red wrote:But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.



No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.


First of all not everyone on here is how you put it
(who knows how to play)
. and i i am not saying they are motivated to miss there turn to get defered troops but that will be motivated to take there turn if the troops are not defered.

as for the computer coding to add it as a game option in the settings, that i am not qualified to give an opinion, but i sure some reading this will. though having seen and used chatglove and bob, i am sure the coding for a missed turn rule option would be no more complicated to do.

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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby darth emperor on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:37 pm

Robert The Red wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I would admit that the advantages of missing a turn are small but they are there more often than not in team games, for example quads where the front line are 4 players against 2 the other 2 players playing a supporting roll, the team with 4 on the front line have to guess where to place troops if the other 2 have missed a turn they can then deploy a large stack on any given border if they had played there turn you would be able to counter fairly, it is difficult to discribe the situation without being in a live game.

Yes, I understand that situation, but again they have to wait to the next turn to use them, so the opponent team has a full turn to counter-attack that, its easy, deploy there, make reinforces there, and even if you don't make any reinforcment there, by just deploying 1 full round you have counter-assault that, its as simple as team comunication, any decent team can arrenge that.


I disagree and like many others have seen it used as an advantage.


Really, I would want to see that... anytime (when I get free slots) let's make a 4v4 and use this strategy of missing turn. I assure you, that you won't get any advantage and even you'll get disadvantage

Robert The Red wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:But for me the main reason for changing the missed turn rule so that troops are not carried forward to the next go is the the motivation not to miss your go, it would encourage more regular play, and reduce the missed turn stats, and i do not believe it would be detrimental to the casual nature of the conquer club community, at the very least having the missed turn rule as part of game settings so people would be free to choose whether they wanted to play a a game with the enhanced missed rule changes. i see no reason why this could not be tried for a given period to see if it proved popular.



No, not at all... people (who knows how to play) don't miss the turn in order to get deffered troops, that's not the motivation. I'll assume you didn't read my previous post, because then you'll see that the motivations are different, and taking out the defered troops won't make any difference.


First of all not everyone on here is how you put it
(who knows how to play)
. and i i am not saying they are motivated to miss there turn to get defered troops but that will be motivated to take there turn if the troops are not defered.


When I say who knows to play, I don't mean he has to be a master, but he has to be average, even if someone misses his turn, an average opponent will be able to get an advantage from there. And I'm telling you, that in most cases where you can get an advantage by missing turn they won't care if they get deffered turns (as explained with examples in my first post)


Robert The Red wrote:as for the computer coding to add it as a game option in the settings, that i am not qualified to give an opinion, but i sure some reading this will. though having seen and used chatglove and bob, i am sure the coding for a missed turn rule option would be no more complicated to do.

BOB and chatglove are user-coded, what you are asking for an option is something that the users can't do, but only the admin. So you can't compare them.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby scotthansen1 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:48 am

Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red

I totally agree Im tired of waiting to play just so they get double the troops and break open or even out a close game. This seems to be the new stategy now , im in a game right now where the player has missed 8 times, ( 8 days ) thats just stupid and now he shows up with a ton of troops and its game over
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:00 pm

scotthansen1 wrote:
Robert The Red wrote:I think it is wrong that someone who misses a turn should get the reinforcements on their following turn, I believe that some use this tacticaly and i think that it would motivate people not to miss their turns.

Robert The Red

I totally agree Im tired of waiting to play just so they get double the troops and break open or even out a close game. This seems to be the new stategy now , im in a game right now where the player has missed 8 times, ( 8 days ) thats just stupid and now he shows up with a ton of troops and its game over


If he's missed that many turns and you haven't taken advantage of his having missed that many turns, the fault is yours, not theirs. When someone misses a turn, it's only an advantage to them if you ALLOW it to be an advantage to them. Don't allow it. Make them pay for missing.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby agentcom on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:24 pm

Woodruff wrote:darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.


Completely agree. I didn't read his entire post, but I can tell that he's on the right track. I've made the same points many times, though not in as much detail.
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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby Robert The Red on Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:44 pm

agentcom wrote:
Woodruff wrote:darth emperor has won this thread with his precisely correct statements.


Completely agree. I didn't read his entire post, but I can tell that he's on the right track. I've made the same points many times, though not in as much detail.



Darth Vader is not right. particulary re the motivation to play. I am not saying People are more motivated to miss there turn for double the spoils on the next turn, even though in ocaisional circumstances it can have an advantage and like others, i have seen that.

what I am saying to be clear is : if people knew they were not going to get their spoils defered, they would make a bit more effort to take their turn. It would do nothing to alter the casual nature of the game. It could only have a positive effect. It would not take much coding and would be a simple thing to try.

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Re: Missed turn rule.

Postby agentcom on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:17 pm

And I think people here are saying that there already is a good enough punishment for the missed turn. The balance has been properly struck. If you kicked players out of any game once they missed a single turn, you would likewise increase the incentive for taking turns. However, most players would probably not like this rule, especially those fremiums just starting out that the site hopes will someday buy premium. So, if you want to make this a question about how much disincentive should be provided for missed turns, then simply reinterpret our answers as "we're pretty much at the desired level."
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