[Rules/MED] Cheaters should be stripped of medals [Rejected]

[nicestash]

I think there should be an instant ban for anybody using the expression cheater(s). The correct word for a person who cheats is cheat , the plural is cheats !
Thank you.

cheat·er (noun)
[chee-ter]
1.a person or thing that cheats.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheater?s=t

[comic boy]

I think there should be an instant ban for anybody using the expression cheater(s). The correct word for a person who cheats is cheat , the plural is cheats !
Thank you.

cheat·er (noun)
[chee-ter]
1.a person or thing that cheats.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheater?s=t

Its fine for those under 10 years old and for Americans who know no better , I am neither so my point stands

[agentcom]

You also have no record of where it stands. You refuse to edit the OP and so no one can actually see or understand what is currently up for suggestion. Even if you want to keep the OP original, you should have what the actual suggestion is up front including what the evolved form is. I would suggest quoting the 'original' OP and putting it in a spoiler, and stating the suggestion in its evolved form so that everyone can see where it stands. Or as an alternate suggestion, you could at intermittent periods update the OP at the end of the thread since you called it part of a history.

Thanks,

J

He has a point. The OP is at best a guiding principle for some suggestion. There have now been 9 pages of discussion. There is nothing wrong with discussion. In fact, in this thread it's overall been an interesting one. But now that people have contributed their thoughts to your suggestion and a mod has even gone so far as to sticky this, I don't think anyone is asking too much to know what your suggestion actually looks like.

A minor thing, but if a player has been cheating to gain points, it seems fair that they be stripped of the medals they have. If they're good enough to earn them under fair circumstances, they'll win them back under fair terms.

I think the suggestion would be improved by adding which medals and under what circumstances would be subject to stripping.

Point resets or adjustments have been discussed. Do you support those being part of your suggestion? If so, you should probably edit the title of the post. It's perfectly fine if you want this to be only about medal stripping, too. Narrowly tailored suggestions do tend to focus argument. (You may have said as much yourself earlier, when the subject came up.)

[Symmetry]

@jghost7: I won't edit the OP as that would make much of the following contributions seem kinda redundant. People would be arguing for, or against, or modifying, or discussing a suggestion that no longer existed in the pages that followed.

Also, I would end up putting my own bias on what is or isn't relevant in the modified OP anyway. As I consider this a discussion, I'm keeping in place the points that I've made earlier that I later say were flawed or poorly worded.

I don't really consider this a refusal to edit the OP, just that I think the OP is the start of the discussion and I don't want to mess around with the starting point.

[SirSebstar]

how about you start a new thread with reference to this one?
or at least propse your definitive ruling (more or less0 right now, and you can add it as an addendum to your OP post. (with stating that you took the quote from page 9)

[Symmetry]

how about you start a new thread with reference to this one?
or at least propse your definitive ruling (more or less0 right now, and you can add it as an addendum to your OP post. (with stating that you took the quote from page 9)

I don't have a ruling- I'm not the boss of the thread. It's a suggestion, and it's up for discussion. I've modified my stance, and others have modified theirs. I'm not sure I'm the best person to say where we stand on this.

There seems to be general agreement that stripping of medals should be a punishment, for Premium or Freemium Cheaters of the points system.

I think we're now on to what should be excepted?

(See- this is why I didn't want to modify the OP- someone will object to my summary if I'm in charge).

[jghost7]

@jghost7: I won't edit the OP as that would make much of the following contributions seem kinda redundant. People would be arguing for, or against, or modifying, or discussing a suggestion that no longer existed in the pages that followed. ...

It would not make everyone's contributions redundant. It would, in fact, organize the individual contributions into a convenient bundle of ideas that make up the actual suggestion. This way, other players following this particular thread can see it evolve and can see what parts of the discussion have made its way into the actual suggestion. Then more efficient fine tuning can occur. If the OP is updated regularly then there is no reason to believe that anyone would not be able to follow the life of the suggestion.

...Also, I would end up putting my own bias on what is or isn't relevant in the modified OP anyway. As I consider this a discussion, I'm keeping in place the points that I've made earlier that I later say were flawed or poorly worded. ...

Not updating the OP with the actual current suggestion is akin to keeping the suggestion as is and not accepting input on how to fine tune the idea. No one knows where it stands or the details involved, only that a few people had some opinions on it. A poorly worded one is better than none. Trust me, we the players, will help on the fine tuning of the wording.

...I don't really consider this a refusal to edit the OP, just that I think the OP is the start of the discussion and I don't want to mess around with the starting point.

Actually, it kind of does sound like a refusal to edit the OP.

@jghost7: I won't edit the OP...

It has been stated before that you can also opt to keep the original text in the OP in the spoiler without compromising your suggestion.

I don't have a ruling- I'm not the boss of the thread. It's a suggestion, and it's up for discussion. I've modified my stance, and others have modified theirs. I'm not sure I'm the best person to say where we stand on this.

It has to start somewhere. As of now there is only the OP. As you opened this suggestion, you kinda are in charge of the typing.

There seems to be general agreement that stripping of medals should be a punishment, for Premium or Freemium Cheaters of the points system.

Again, I disagree with this statement. I know you would just like to ignore that and move on but I really don't think you can accurately say this. As it stands now I don't agree. I wouldn't take it for granted that everyone agrees so they didn't post. Let's start getting details in on this suggestion. When we can see how it actually looks, then we can decide better on whether or not it is a passable idea.


Thanks again,


J

[Symmetry]

Not really JG, feel free to read the thread, and your contributions are welcome when on topic.

[jghost7]

..feel free to read the thread...

Ditto.


Thanks,

J

[agentcom]

how about you start a new thread with reference to this one?
or at least propse your definitive ruling (more or less0 right now, and you can add it as an addendum to your OP post. (with stating that you took the quote from page 9)

I don't have a ruling- I'm not the boss of the thread. It's a suggestion, and it's up for discussion. I've modified my stance, and others have modified theirs. I'm not sure I'm the best person to say where we stand on this.

There seems to be general agreement that stripping of medals should be a punishment, for Premium or Freemium Cheaters of the points system.

I think we're now on to what should be excepted?

(See- this is why I didn't want to modify the OP- someone will object to my summary if I'm in charge).

In that case, this sounds more like General Discussion than a suggestion. Your suggestion as it is described in the OP is not much of a suggestion. If you do not feel like actually proposing a suggestion following all this discussion, then it's probably time to either archive this or move it over to General Discussion.

[patrickaa317]

If collaborative discussions/decisions are not going to be updated in the OP, I think this should either be unstickied, moved to submitted or rejected suggestions as it stands. No point in further discussions if nothing is going to be changed in the suggestion.

[patrickaa317]

I see agentcom and I were on the same page there.

[Symmetry]

how about you start a new thread with reference to this one?
or at least propse your definitive ruling (more or less0 right now, and you can add it as an addendum to your OP post. (with stating that you took the quote from page 9)

I don't have a ruling- I'm not the boss of the thread. It's a suggestion, and it's up for discussion. I've modified my stance, and others have modified theirs. I'm not sure I'm the best person to say where we stand on this.

There seems to be general agreement that stripping of medals should be a punishment, for Premium or Freemium Cheaters of the points system.

I think we're now on to what should be excepted?

(See- this is why I didn't want to modify the OP- someone will object to my summary if I'm in charge).

In that case, this sounds more like General Discussion than a suggestion. Your suggestion as it is described in the OP is not much of a suggestion. If you do not feel like actually proposing a suggestion following all this discussion, then it's probably time to either archive this or move it over to General Discussion.

As a Suggestions Mod, I guess it's up to you if you feel that the suggestion has no merit. I think the main point of the OP seems to have pretty widespread support, and that there is a decent amount of nuance in the following discussion.

At the moment, the main point of criticism seems to be that I don't want to retcon the discussion. This seems to me to be an argument over the style of the thread, rather than the merits of the proposal.

[chapcrap]

Suggestions are updated in the OP as discussion changes them. If this was only intended to be about a discussion and the OP isn't changed, then move this to General Discussion or rejected.

Good grief.

[Symmetry]

Fine, I've done so, but the guidelines say it's only encouraged, and I think I've cut some people off. Hopefully I've left their lines of argument open. I don't want to see a lot of good discussion thrown away because of style issues.

[Symmetry]

Unsurprisingly, those complaining the most about formatting have yet to add anything now that I've acquiesced to their demands and altered the OP.

A more cynical man than myself might think that they never intended to contribute in the first place, but I hold out hope.

[SirSebstar]

i like the new suggestion better. less ambigious
ofcourse there are still the practicalities like, well how to implement removal of medals. do you remove the games, a handmade count added to your medal count or something?
labor intensive. A point reset would suit more, however, that will not be implemented since that kills off a closed system(more or less) like cc.
overall, i fail to see how this will prevent people from cheating, how this helps in any way shape or form, except as a public form of humiliation and a shitload of work for admin.
And lets face it, its usually not worth the time and effort (to strip them) since most busted accounts never get used again.
i am not opposed the the idea per se, just this particular suggestion. if admin sees the time to implement it, go for it., just do everything else first

[Symmetry]

i like the new suggestion better. less ambigious
ofcourse there are still the practicalities like, well how to implement removal of medals. do you remove the games, a handmade count added to your medal count or something?
labor intensive. A point reset would suit more, however, that will not be implemented since that kills off a closed system(more or less) like cc.
overall, i fail to see how this will prevent people from cheating, how this helps in any way shape or form, except as a public form of humiliation and a shitload of work for admin.
And lets face it, its usually not worth the time and effort (to strip them) since most busted accounts never get used again.
i am not opposed the the idea per se, just this particular suggestion. if admin sees the time to implement it, go for it., just do everything else first

Personally, I'd say just strip the medals. I never intended for it to be anything more than that. Simply let them earn them back fair and square. Points resets and removing games seem, as you point out, complicated.

If there are medals that should be exempted, I'm happy to talk about them. Possibly tournament medals. As is, I don't think it would be tough to reset a counter on most medals.

Yeah, this is a less harsh punishment than some might like, but that's sort of why I suggested it. It may not be the harshest solution, but it is pretty fair and allows people who have cheated to redeem themselves. Plus it's kind of in line with the idea of awarding "medals" in the first place.

[jghost7]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

[Symmetry]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

Well, as I put in the OP that you asked me to change, I said that the medals were up for debate, and encouraged contributions as to which kinds of cheaters should be punished.

I think I've contributed, and suggested that tournament medals be kept, although you claim, a bit unfairly, that I'm asking for all medals to be stripped.

Is it really so much to ask that you contribute to the discussion? The OP is updated after all.

[jghost7]

Players found guilty of cheating should be stripped of their medals

The generalSymmetry's opinion so far is that medal stripping should be a punishment, and the discussion currently concerns what category of cheating should be dealt with, and whether certain medals should be excepted.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

I do not think that this is a good idea. You would strip all medals for what? Why? Which ones then? Only for multis? or Only multis found guilty of illegal point collecting? Where does it end?

Thanks,

J

Well, as I put in the OP that you asked me to change, I said that the medals were up for debate, and encouraged contributions as to which kinds of cheaters should be punished. ...

I asked that you update the suggestion as it evolves with the discussion. You have made a start for which I commend you. I still don't believe you have included some things but that is neither here nor there. Unfortunately, I just don't happen to agree that your suggestion will improve the site, and so will have to be on the opposing side of this debate.

I think I've contributed, and suggested that tournament medals be kept, although you claim, a bit unfairly, that I'm asking for all medals to be stripped. ...

Personally, I'd say just strip the medals.

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped...

It does seem to lean that way though. Even if it is not all medals, you suggest a significant portion be stripped. For what? What does this achieve? How does this make the site better? As far as I can see, it doesn't.
On a side note, it can seem unfair as the number of medals affected would be potentially different from player to player.

Is it really so much to ask that you contribute to the discussion? The OP is updated after all.

No. Ask away. Then go back and read some of my earlier posts. I may add more later. Just because you wish to ignore what you don't want to hear, doesn't mean it wasn't said.

Thanks,

J

[Symmetry]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

[agentcom]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

Symmetry, you need to realize that to most (dare I say?) people in this forum, "contributing" does not mean simply agreeing with an idea. There is plenty of room for disagreement. In this forum, it's nice when people even come by to post there "+1" or "do not do this" posts. At least they've taken the time to lend support or show distaste for a suggestion. Most people in this thread (which I've been following and contributing to since before I was a mod) have done more than this and actually contributed.

It's great that you've stuck around as a steward for your suggestion. There are a lot of OP's that don't do this. But, generally speaking, if an OP wants the site to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its users vis a vis the OP, then I don't think it's too much to ask the OP to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its commentators.

You are right, above, when you say "the guidelines say it's only encouraged" to amend the OP. But it is encouraged to facilitate the submission and implementation of a suggestion. If you think that the OP stands on its own, then it may also fail on its own. I do not see the OP (even the recently edited OP) as a strong candidate for Submission. It either lacks detail in what medals would be subject to rescission, or it lacks guidelines for such rescission, or it is overbroad in the medals that are subject to rescission. I am not sure which because although I think the amended suggestion is better, I still think it's vague.

Here is the OP right now:

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

My main question is: What medals are "regarding standard gameplay"?

-----------------

Now, for the positive part. Thank you for clarifying that this suggestion is only involving multis. And also thank you for being an active steward of your suggestion. The latter is especially appreciated (at least by me).

[Symmetry]

JG, you're just trolling now. I edited the OP, as was your supposed condition for posting contributions. What do you want to get you to contribute?

Symmetry, you need to realize that to most (dare I say?) people in this forum, "contributing" does not mean simply agreeing with an idea. There is plenty of room for disagreement. In this forum, it's nice when people even come by to post there "+1" or "do not do this" posts. At least they've taken the time to lend support or show distaste for a suggestion. Most people in this thread (which I've been following and contributing to since before I was a mod) have done more than this and actually contributed.

It's great that you've stuck around as a steward for your suggestion. There are a lot of OP's that don't do this. But, generally speaking, if an OP wants the site to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its users vis a vis the OP, then I don't think it's too much to ask the OP to be more attentive and responsive to the desires of its commentators.

You are right, above, when you say "the guidelines say it's only encouraged" to amend the OP. But it is encouraged to facilitate the submission and implementation of a suggestion. If you think that the OP stands on its own, then it may also fail on its own. I do not see the OP (even the recently edited OP) as a strong candidate for Submission. It either lacks detail in what medals would be subject to rescission, or it lacks guidelines for such rescission, or it is overbroad in the medals that are subject to rescission. I am not sure which because although I think the amended suggestion is better, I still think it's vague.

Here is the OP right now:

My thoughts, as a whole, are that all medals regarding standard gameplay should be stripped, and that it should be reserved for cheaters who use multis to manipulate the system.

My main question is: What medals are "regarding standard gameplay"?

-----------------

Now, for the positive part. Thank you for clarifying that this suggestion is only involving multis. And also thank you for being an active steward of your suggestion. The latter is especially appreciated (at least by me).

I would suggest those medals listed under game achievements on the medal page as being the most relevant.

Medals Page

Though I could possibly see an argument for some of them to be excluded. Tourny medals I would generally say would depend on circumstance. I'm more ambivalent about them, although if cheating occurred within the tournament, or was used to gain entry to a tournament, I'd say they should be stripped.

Some of the other medals- say for creating a map, are unrelated to cheating and should be kept.

[Symmetry]

Ok, I've left this suggestion alone for a fair while, and it's fairly clear that it reached a consensus prior to the demands for a change in OP by a few posters, who of course, didn't respond once the OP was changed as per their requests.

What's next?

I hope this doesn't get dismissed because of a technical argument on the last few pages after a general agreement on the preceding ones.