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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Woodruff on Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:05 am

Wellspring wrote:
The scoreboard will mean more since more people will gain points from playing their own rank rather than gaining points from those with a quarter of their score.


Arguably the scoring and ranking system would mean less not more with this system. People would only play against people of their own rank or higher, therefore never risk losing a large amount of points. There would be very little movement between ranks.


Yes, and yet possibly no. If someone is really at a certain rank only due to their high frequency of playing games against...lesser opponents, that will rapidly show as their rank drops from playing the higher players more consistently.

That being said, I believe the suggestion is really just for it to be an option, rather than a requirement...which makes it a win-win scenario.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby The Neon Peon on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:26 pm

Wellspring wrote:
The scoreboard will mean more since more people will gain points from playing their own rank rather than gaining points from those with a quarter of their score.


Arguably the scoring and ranking system would mean less not more with this system. People would only play against people of their own rank or higher, therefore never risk losing a large amount of points. There would be very little movement between ranks.


If I beat another major, doesn't that show something? There is a reason why people who play games against those of their own rank in general are more respected on the site than those who foed their own rank and only play with people 3 or more ranks below them.

I don't think you are going to find many people to back your belief that playing lower ranks and getting a high score is harder than playing those your own rank.

Wellspring wrote:Why not just play private games if you want to play against people of a certain rank?

Because
1. They fill more slowly
2. Only a small minority read the forums, so the amount of different people you can play is very limited
3. Some games types will never fill because of the small people that see the games
4. Speed games are harder to fill and usually have the same people in them all the time
5. It is extra work, why not save us the effort? Just like the game finder... we could hypothetically join all our games through the join a games page
...
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Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby cjbpulp on Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:59 pm

Quandry: I want to learn to play the harder maps (eg., City Mogul), but every time I start a game, some high-rated shark shows up and whips me, which doesn't teach me much.

So, howsabouts an option to "start a game" with a specific rating range? So me, with my 1100-1200, might specify 1100-1300, thereby getting a close game, or at least a game with other learners, while specifically excluding sharks.

Discuss?
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby jefjef on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Make private games and post in call outs. CC isn't interested in allowing us to put rank restrictions on games even though many support it.
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby Woodruff on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:12 pm

cjbpulp wrote:Quandry: I want to learn to play the harder maps (eg., City Mogul), but every time I start a game, some high-rated shark shows up and whips me, which doesn't teach me much.
So, howsabouts an option to "start a game" with a specific rating range? So me, with my 1100-1200, might specify 1100-1300, thereby getting a close game, or at least a game with other learners, while specifically excluding sharks.
Discuss?


<sigh> What, and solve people's problems? Nay!
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:33 pm

cjbpulp wrote:
So, howsabouts an option to "start a game" with a specific rating range? So me, with my 1100-1200, might specify 1100-1300, thereby getting a close game, or at least a game with other learners, while specifically excluding sharks.

Discuss?


Long way around: Foelist everyone who isn't the range you want; then they cannot join a game you've started.

Option B: Ask one of those sharks to dubs WITH you, to teach you.
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby Bruceswar on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 pm

Your best way to do this is start a game private and invite someone close to your rank or post the password in callouts looking for a player within 200 points of you either way.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Mr_Adams on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:57 pm

I like it in this form...
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Re: Point ranger in "start a game"

Postby Mr_Adams on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:04 am

here's why

Mr_Adams wrote:Image

k, paint shop will make my point. so, we have players (dots: Blue, red, orange, lime and brown) and points (green dots)

Blue red lime and orange all start out with 6 points (below the 10 point barrier) and brown is the high rank with 15 points. He stands alone in my diagram as the minority "officer" if you will. Orange wins a couple of games, and moves up to Browns bracket, and gets his butt handed to him. now he loses the points he took from blue red and lime, and moves back down.

Before, blue red lime and orange shared 24 points between themselves, while brown had 15 points to himself. in the end, blue red orange and lime share 21 points between themselves, and brown has 18 to himself.

Blue, red, orange, lime represent the lower bracket. orange wins a game, taking blue red and limes' points. Then goes and plays against brown. loses a few games, and moves back down. but he leaves his points in the next bracket up, therefore, he reduces the total number of points and the points to player ratio in the first group, while increase the total points and points to player ratio in the next bracket up. Now, until you can explain how they move DOWN in a bracket based system, I tell you that they will NOT move down in a bracket based system, causeing an upward flow in points, and a middle no mans land of striped ranks.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:26 pm

bump... anyone have anything against this suggestion?
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Wellspring on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:48 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I don't think you are going to find many people to back your belief that playing lower ranks and getting a high score is harder than playing those your own rank.


If gaining points by playing against low ranks is so much easier, then why do you want to change it?

Take an 8 player terminator game for instance. It would certainly be much easier to gain / keep your rank if it was against everyone from your own ranking or higher who know how to play. But fill it with 7 cooks / privates and chances are they'll all go for you first just because you're the highest, and you're out 40 pts instead of 20. That sounds harder to me.


Don't get me wrong, I think it's annoying when low levels join my games and and all I get out of it is 8 or 9 pts, but I don't think the that justifies changing it.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 pm

besides that, they aren't going to make a major change to the site to satisfy the top 10% or so. I like the idea, I don't think we ever will/should see it.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:29 pm

Wellspring wrote:
The Neon Peon wrote:I don't think you are going to find many people to back your belief that playing lower ranks and getting a high score is harder than playing those your own rank.


If gaining points by playing against low ranks is so much easier, then why do you want to change it?

Take an 8 player terminator game for instance. It would certainly be much easier to gain / keep your rank if it was against everyone from your own ranking or higher who know how to play. But fill it with 7 cooks / privates and chances are they'll all go for you first just because you're the highest, and you're out 40 pts instead of 20. That sounds harder to me.


Don't get me wrong, I think it's annoying when low levels join my games and and all I get out of it is 8 or 9 pts, but I don't think the that justifies changing it.

Quite the opposite...

The reason it is that way for you is because you play mostly 1v1s, where luck determines the game to a much greater extent than in most other game types. Take a look through your team games. Find how many times a team of sergeant's down has beaten you.

In most game types, having 7 players who don't know what they are doing in a game is a great advantage to you. Especially in freestyle speed games of all sorts. It is much easier to gain points by playing low ranks, except in 1v1s, where the drop kills you in half of the games, the dice kill you in half of the games that the drop did not kill you in, and your skill only shows in a small portion of them.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Wellspring on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:49 pm

I agree with you on the team games. Playing low ranked opponents is often easier b/c they are new and don't know what they're doing yet. But on occasion, they do win, and it hurts pretty bad points wise, therefore offsetting all the points you've gathered from the multiple wins.

On the other hand though, playing multiplayer games, such as when you're trying to get your assassin / terminator medals, having a rank restriction would make these games much easier imho. Using one of my games as an example: Game 5455215. Those are the types of games that would never happen if you were able to set it to only allow players of the same rank or higher to join.

You're bound to get a bad drop / screwed over by the dice in a fair amount of your games, and if 20pts is all that's ever on the line, that kind of defeats the way that the point system currently works. It's those times where you're finally starting to get on a roll and become high rank, then you have a bad game or two and lose 50pts. That's what keeps things competitive & interesting.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:23 pm

You have just stated that when playing low ranks, luck will cause you to have a net loss of points, correct?
If that is the case, then score is being determined by luck rather than skill.

When a cook wins a game with a bunch of colonels/brigs/generals in it, how many times is it because he outplayed his opponents, and how many times is it based on luck? I think the answer is fairly obvious, that most of the time that happens, it is luck that determines the score.

In a scenario, I play ten games, I win 8 of them:
- If I beat 8 cooks, what does that say about my skill? A: nothing, so why should my score change?
- If I beat 8 colonel, what does that say about my skill? A: something, it is almost impossible to win 8 out of 10 games against someone better than you based on luck, doesn't that say more about my score than beating 10 cooks?

Take a look at people like obliterationX, he was a low rank... Then he foed all the high ranks/people who were good at the game. He became Brig pretty quickly... same thing with KLOBBER... same thing with sjnap... same thing with a whole bunch of other high ranked players.

Why? Because, that's the easiest way to get points. If it wasn't, then why are so many people on the site only managing to get to a very high rank after doing it, and then dropping out whenever they stop? (sjnap and KLOBBER are great examples of people who stopped noob farming and lost several thousand points)
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby Wellspring on Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:03 pm

You have just stated that when playing low ranks, luck will cause you to have a net loss of points, correct?
If that is the case, then score is being determined by luck rather than skill.

When a cook wins a game with a bunch of colonels/brigs/generals in it, how many times is it because he outplayed his opponents, and how many times is it based on luck? I think the answer is fairly obvious, that most of the time that happens, it is luck that determines the score.


Agreed. But that is also what keeps people's scores from getting out of hand, which is what I like most about the current point system. If you were able to set it so that only people of the same rank joined your games, the point system would be more of a flat rate of always 20pts per game. There's not much risk in that. The higher you get the more you have to lose, which makes it more challenging in itself.

lol, I've been wondering why obliterationX foed me. This is the first I've heard of the foeing all the good players thing so that you can farm noobs in freestyle, but it makes sense.

I think it all depends on the game-type which one is easier, restricted ranking or open. The restricted ranking system would make sequential games easier to gain/keep pts imo. Freestyle on the other hand it would be more difficult obviously. But even with the set ranking system, high ranked players could choose not to use it in their freestyle games and farm low levels, and then use it in their sequential games to only allow high ranked players to join. So it would seem you'd be getting the best of both worlds?
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:22 pm

I suggested something similar -- rather than an open ended restriction (which might be more difficult both from a programming perspective and would be more likely to result in heavy game limitations), to have optional "slots" -- you can have a game limited to 2 ranks above and below your starting rank.

It was rejected for a lot of reasons, most pertinent being that people could artificially lower their rank just to farm. I am not sure how much that really would happen. Also, people intent on breaking the system will -- and will be dealt with through other means, eventually.

The most recent partially (or fully?) accepted solution was to have a divided scoreboard. I fundamentally dislike that idea, because unlike your and my suggestion, it would set too much of a "set" artificial barrier. This one will flux with someone's rank.. and it will be optional. I see it as a compromise between the "private/play only those I know" and "public/take whomever comes" games.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby jammyjames on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:53 pm

i dont see why people are against this feature, it does no harm at all... any farming will be sorted easily.. and the people who only target low ranks will get shat on..
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby anonymus on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:52 pm

if people are afraid of this becoming a noob-farming feature why not put in the code that a player cant choose to set the highest rank in the limit lower than 2 ranks under your own.. if your a major you can set the limit between Lt. and up if you are a capt. between Sgt. 1st and up and so on..
Eliminates the noob-farming aspects..

well it doesn't really matter to me since I do read forums and can find games, but it wouldn't hurt me either..
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby jefjef on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Personally since officers are the premier "farmers" there should be restrictions to block ? - cooks & cadets from joining a game that includes an officer.

Make em earn their stripes 1st.
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby jammyjames on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:22 pm

jefjef wrote:Personally since officers are the premier "farmers" there should be restrictions to block ? - cooks & cadets from joining a game that includes an officer.

Make em earn their stripes 1st.


i beleive that to be a good idea. however only on the maps that are deemed hard maps... all of this argument in these forums because one webmaster cant have his moderation team kick themselves in the f*cking arses and do something about the fuedal argument...
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Re: Re-Think the rank restriction rejection.

Postby The Neon Peon on Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:55 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:[*]This will NOT make farming easier. Simply make a restriction that your rank must be within the limits. In that case, a major trying to farm lets every captain, lieutenant, sergeant etc. on the scoreboard join. Not exactly farming... especially hard to farm premium members either way.

Congratulations to everyone reading this in the first post.
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:07 pm

Bruceswar wrote:Your best way to do this is start a game private and invite someone close to your rank or post the password in callouts looking for a player within 200 points of you either way.


Or, his suggestion could be considered for implementation. He did post it in the suggestion report forum.

Sounds like cjbpulp wants to avoid getting hammered (essentially make his experience on the site much better), which is what I am trying to help with my suggestion about limiting new players to specific maps.

I like this suggestion from cjbpulp very much because it allows new players to limit who can play against them. Similarly, it allows higher ranks to limit their points being spirited away by preventing low ranks from joining.

Great suggestion CJBPULP, please keep them coming.
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby AAFitz on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:43 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Your best way to do this is start a game private and invite someone close to your rank or post the password in callouts looking for a player within 200 points of you either way.


Or, his suggestion could be considered for implementation. He did post it in the suggestion report forum.

Sounds like cjbpulp wants to avoid getting hammered (essentially make his experience on the site much better), which is what I am trying to help with my suggestion about limiting new players to specific maps.

I like this suggestion from cjbpulp very much because it allows new players to limit who can play against them. Similarly, it allows higher ranks to limit their points being spirited away by preventing low ranks from joining.

Great suggestion CJBPULP, please keep them coming.


His suggestion HAS been considered. It was considered in the first 50 threads suggesting the same thing, and denied for the same reason and explanation as they always have and will be. CC will not discriminate against rank. There are many options available to play against any given rank, and to play against ones own rank, or always a lower rank, or always a higher rank.

Between the invites, foe list, the wall, the pms, live chat, and the callouts forum, it is simply easy to play against whatever ranks you choose for any given game. What you CANNOT do, is discriminate against players in open games, simply BECAUSE of their rank unilaterally.
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Re: Suggestion: "Start a Game" with a specific rating range

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:26 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Your best way to do this is start a game private and invite someone close to your rank or post the password in callouts looking for a player within 200 points of you either way.


Or, his suggestion could be considered for implementation. He did post it in the suggestion report forum.

Sounds like cjbpulp wants to avoid getting hammered (essentially make his experience on the site much better), which is what I am trying to help with my suggestion about limiting new players to specific maps.

I like this suggestion from cjbpulp very much because it allows new players to limit who can play against them. Similarly, it allows higher ranks to limit their points being spirited away by preventing low ranks from joining.

Great suggestion CJBPULP, please keep them coming.



CJBPULP, As mentioned, just want to give you kudos for posting on the suggestion and bugs forum. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. It seems like you and a lot of other players have concerns about playing players of certain ranks. Perhaps you can come up with a suggestion (or comment on other suggestions) that speak to your basic concerns. From my perspective, you are interested in making your playing experience on this site better. If you enjoy it, you'll probably stick around, and I'm all for that. CJBPULP, do you have another idea, aside from the solution you offered here, that can help make you experience ont he site better?
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