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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Thezzaruz on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:35 pm

AndrewB wrote:I am not sure why are u baiting me??? Stay on the topic and cut your insults.


Baiting??? I never baited you, and my post was very much on topic tbf.


AndrewB wrote:My suggestion is to make the rank barrier MANDATORY. As it is in every other game type. I just didn't want to create another post about it. There are soo many already.


A mandatory barrier is quite a different idea to the OP so you really should make a separate thread (maybe shouldn't waste the time though as I can't ever see that being implemented tbh). Also you really can't expect us to know that you are making a separate suggestion unless you actually say that you are, my point about this not having any effect on farming is still very valid in relation to the OP.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:38 pm

Calling someone "not bright" is an insult at least to say.

And would you have any other comments to the several other reasons I have listed (pros or cons the idea)
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Thezzaruz on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:52 pm

AndrewB wrote:Calling someone not bright is an insult at least.


Probably, still think it was a fitting observation of your argument.


AndrewB wrote:And would you have any other comments to the several other reasons I have listed (pros or cons the idea)


So far I have seen you make 3 points. One about how this would stop farming and that I have already shown to be not true. One about how you would like to not have to play "loonies" (isn't that an insult btw?) and although I can feel your pain I don't think that this is a valid argument for rank segregation nor do I think that a barrier based upon rank would cut all "loonies" out of your games. And lastly you made some argument about increased competition but you failed to make it understandable, what I could understand looked to be a flawed argument though.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:41 pm

AndrewB wrote:

Now give me a ONE good reason why there should NOT be a barrier.


The main reason I saw was that they felt it would discriminate against noobs and thus reduce the chance they will pay for a premium membership. Everyone needs a chance to learn.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby AndrewB on Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:26 pm

I see this as education is stages.

First you finish high school, then college, then university, then graduated studies.

Nobody complains about stages in the formal education...
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Vermont on Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:12 am

I came to this section of the forum to propose this exact idea. It is annoying (and takes additional time) to setup private games and recruit people just so you can play a game with people somewhat near your rank.

I don't think it's a coincidence that you can never or at best rarely find a speed game (and perhaps regular non-team - I don't play many) game with players above a certain rank.

Perhaps we should update the help page to read "up to rank so-and-so the game finder is a useful tool for public games. After that you have to go setup games yourself since there is no simple mechanism for doing so."

I don't mean to sound cranky; I love the game. I just wish there was an easier way to keep playing games with people somewhat near my own rank as I could when I first started.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Thezzaruz on Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:21 am

AndrewB wrote:Nobody complains about stages in the formal education...


That's because CC and formal education is two very different things...
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby slowreactor on Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:01 am

Without rank barriers, a couple of things would happen:

1) It takes you forever to get your medals because the only thing you dare play are officers private games, and this ends up making you play the same people over and over again.
2) You get called a farmer because noobs and cooks consistently join your open games.
3) You lose 200 points in one day because suicidal cooks keep ending up in your speed games.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby AndrewB on Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:37 pm

Thezzaruz wrote:
AndrewB wrote:Nobody complains about stages in the formal education...


That's because CC and formal education is two very different things...


You are just refuse to see something else as an example, lol

It might be tough to re-invent the wheel for you every time...
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby HardAttack on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:22 pm

I totally agree with you Andrew, i made similar suggestions a few times and saw some other ppl made such suggestions time to time.
Everytime the result is same. Simple, no.
As high rankers, you are low in number and the highest portion of customer base is less than 1600 points mate.
Say 2*2=4, your idea is as true and clear as this. But will not work.

Anyway, the above phrase to stay there, the reason i m writing, please, yes i beg you please DO NOT SAY PRIVATE GAMES to be option to rank bareer public games. Simple, they are not same thing. And even, they have got no slight difference. One of it is north pole, the other one is south pole. This much different two items. If you are giving me that i have got private game option to be an answer for this suggestion and demand, then sadly you do not know what private game is for.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:24 pm

I've personaly suggested this before, and now completely disagree. we have 4 majorly successful thread dedicated to this idea in callouts. sure, they all need to start rotating passwords because of the potential drop in ranks, but this is unfair and will cause extreme segregation and a much larger points gap between the top and the bottom.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby HardAttack on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:29 pm

Mr_Adams wrote:I've personaly suggested this before, and now completely disagree. we have 4 majorly successful thread dedicated to this idea in callouts. sure, they all need to start rotating passwords because of the potential drop in ranks, but this is unfair and will cause extreme segregation and a much larger points gap between the top and the bottom.


The total point is almost a constant. Every new member adds +1000 point into the pool. If one goes to a very high rank, then he will get it hard to find opponents to play with. Simple, it will have no effect on point gap. Yours one is a common belief which is wrong mate.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:57 pm

HardAttack wrote:
Mr_Adams wrote:I've personaly suggested this before, and now completely disagree. we have 4 majorly successful thread dedicated to this idea in callouts. sure, they all need to start rotating passwords because of the potential drop in ranks, but this is unfair and will cause extreme segregation and a much larger points gap between the top and the bottom.


The total point is almost a constant. Every new member adds +1000 point into the pool. If one goes to a very high rank, then he will get it hard to find opponents to play with. Simple, it will have no effect on point gap. Yours one is a common belief which is wrong mate.


think more into this though. As players get more and more used to this system, the players who stratle the borders will act as a drain for a the group. say the best of the cooks for example. all cooks are playing all cooks, and one manages to take enough of the other cooks' points to become a cadet, but then gets several losses, and pushed back down to a cook. now there are the same number of cooks with x fewer points, and same number of cadets with x more points. this will eventualy cause an upward drag of points. it may be small (conqueror of 6500 points or so) but will happen.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:32 pm

This is a good idea. Quite frankly all the great unwashed should be kept in their place, in fact if I had my way we would stop educating them at age 4 and start them working in my factories, after all most of them will come to little more than vile smelling hooligans running about the place and are fit for little else but decent cannon fodder while we enjoy roasted stuffed pheasant with a fine bottle of the Vintage stuff in the Officers mess.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Mr_Adams on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:47 pm

Fruitcake wrote: we enjoy roasted stuffed pheasant with a fine bottle of the Vintage stuff in the Officers mess.


That actualy sounds amazing right now...
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby AndrewB on Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:58 pm

Mr_Adams wrote:think more into this though. As players get more and more used to this system, the players who stratle the borders will act as a drain for a the group. say the best of the cooks for example. all cooks are playing all cooks, and one manages to take enough of the other cooks' points to become a cadet, but then gets several losses, and pushed back down to a cook. now there are the same number of cooks with x fewer points, and same number of cadets with x more points. this will eventualy cause an upward drag of points. it may be small (conqueror of 6500 points or so) but will happen.


You are looking into one of the borders and see the point drainage.

But there is another border too, for the players who are going down in rank. That will happen and they will bring points back into the level.

Essentially as HardAttack has said - total point amount will remain the same as in the current system.

If you are referring to the pure fact that the points migrate from cook cadets, then essentially the same thing is happening now too. If the cook will play better then cadet, then the points will migrate back to cook, and cook becomes the cadet ;)
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Lindax on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:15 pm

Mmmm.... The problem as I see it right now is that you either play for fun OR play for points. If you play for points, your options are very limited. If you play for fun, forget your points.

I mainly play for fun, but I also value my points. So, I play some carefully selected tournaments and some carefully selected games. Whenever I feel like having a few hours of fun, I turn to speed games. I'm no good at 1 v 1 freestyle, so I end up playing games with the majority of players lower in rank than I am. I win a few games, I lose a few games and at the end of my "fun session" I lost points, because when I win I get x points and when I lose I lose xxx points. I still do it because I like the "fun" part of it.

I would like to be able to do both. Play for fun AND play for points. Maybe a "rank barrier" would help achieve that....

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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Vermont on Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:28 am

The reason this idea gets suggested so often is that when you first come here you can easily use 'Start a game' and 'Game finder' to find games with people within 300 (or pick another arbitrary number of your choosing) points of yourself easily. There are tons of games and you can always find a reasonable speed game.

However, after you climb a few ranks you realize that (almost) no one creates public games anymore. All of a sudden if you want to play games you need to happen to ask someone or search the forum, find a specific thread, get sent a password and maybe then you can join a game.

What compelling reason is there to make people jump through these hoops? They are in effect going through these manual steps to play games with people somewhat near their rank.

Basically - we DO have a rank barrier currently, but it is artificial, clunky and non-obvious. Why not make it something more straightforward and consistent with the rest of the game setup?
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:46 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
AndrewB wrote:

Now give me a ONE good reason why there should NOT be a barrier.


The main reason I saw was that they felt it would discriminate against noobs and thus reduce the chance they will pay for a premium membership. Everyone needs a chance to learn.



An optional barrier would enable the chance, plus allow those who've gained rank to continue to set whichever game settings they prefer without being labelled "farmer" based on who joins the bulk of their games.

A barrier does exist with the system currently in place, it's just hiding for political expedience, but forms a trap to those who want to leave their games open for anyone.
:o What do I mean!!!???


If someone of higher rank continues to create games that give new recruits that "chance to learn" he or she can be considered a farmer because that means nr's are joining their games alot.

So the system in place forces someone who gets a little rank to make his or her own barriers: under threat of "noted" "warned" "banned" for farming, the higher ranks must stop playing the games he or she might prefer, in order to create games that new recruits will not also prefer. Nor must the higher rank invite new recruits to join those non-preferred setting to give them that "chance to learn," because a higher rank actively inviting new recruits to games constitutes real proof of farming. This means, CC is set up to REQUIRE higher ranks to discriminate against lower ranks or face consequences of "farming;" this requirement fosters more antagonism when lower ranks or new recruits join their games and tends to isolate officers to "password only" games.

Since a barrier exists anyway, CC should program an option so that higher ranks can continue to enjoy their games of preference, to set up any games they happen to wish to play with a click button to indicate the minimum rank required to join the game. That way, they can play what they prefer 95% or whatever percent CC admin deems acceptable with "min rank enabled" but open 5% of their games to all comers - giving the new recruits a chance to play higher ranks to really gain experience.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:25 am

slowreactor wrote:Without rank barriers, a couple of things would happen:
1) It takes you forever to get your medals because the only thing you dare play are officers private games, and this ends up making you play the same people over and over again.


I've never had this problem, even when I was an officer.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby slowreactor on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:36 am

Woodruff wrote:
slowreactor wrote:Without rank barriers, a couple of things would happen:
1) It takes you forever to get your medals because the only thing you dare play are officers private games, and this ends up making you play the same people over and over again.


I've never had this problem, even when I was an officer.


Considering that if I were to play an open game, it is very possible (and likely) for the point average of all the other players who join to be around 1000, which results in only about 50-70 points for me per win (I play 6-8 player games). That, combined with the fact that a suicidal player can easily give a cook a win (50-70 points gone right there) makes it so that I almost have to win half my games just to keep my rank, even though mine's closer to 1/4.

With private officers games, I can have only a 23% win rate and still maintain my rank. However, only a certain amount of actual officers frequent the callouts forum and the officers private games threads, which makes me end up playing the same people over and over again (Half of the private officers games I finish, I don't even have any ratings that I need to leave, and that's surprising, considering I only have about 350 finished games).
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Mr_Adams on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:52 am

HardAttack wrote:
Mr_Adams wrote:I've personaly suggested this before, and now completely disagree. we have 4 majorly successful thread dedicated to this idea in callouts. sure, they all need to start rotating passwords because of the potential drop in ranks, but this is unfair and will cause extreme segregation and a much larger points gap between the top and the bottom.


The total point is almost a constant. Every new member adds +1000 point into the pool. If one goes to a very high rank, then he will get it hard to find opponents to play with. Simple, it will have no effect on point gap. Yours one is a common belief which is wrong mate.


This will only happen when people join games with players of lower rank, or somebody drops in rank while in a game with higher ranks, then joins low rank games and loses them only after winning in the previous games with higher ranks, thereby bypassing the one way points barrier. In the end, there WILL be an upward flow of points. Not saying there isn't already, but as Lindax says, every once in a while you play a bunch of 1v1 for fun. lose points. that's the only way points go down to the bottom of the score board, is when hogh ranks lose to low ranks. otherwise, points are just recycled through the same group of low ranks, and when a low rank accumulated enough to move up a rank, they then lose points, sending them back down a rank, only now with fewer points. the problem your not seeing is that when somebody moves down in rank with a points barrier system, they are LEAVEING POINBTS BEHIND in the next higher up group, not taking points down into the next lower group.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:23 pm

slowreactor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
slowreactor wrote:Without rank barriers, a couple of things would happen:
1) It takes you forever to get your medals because the only thing you dare play are officers private games, and this ends up making you play the same people over and over again.


I've never had this problem, even when I was an officer.


Considering that if I were to play an open game, it is very possible (and likely) for the point average of all the other players who join to be around 1000, which results in only about 50-70 points for me per win (I play 6-8 player games).


I believe I see the difference in our perspectives right here. I don't care about the points in the slightest (if I did, I sure wouldn't be playing 60+ games pretty much at all times).

So having said that, it seems to me that it is your concern over the points which is limiting your ability to get the medals quickly, rather than the lack of a rank barrier.
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby HardAttack on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:27 pm

Vermont wrote:The reason this idea gets suggested so often is that when you first come here you can easily use 'Start a game' and 'Game finder' to find games with people within 300 (or pick another arbitrary number of your choosing) points of yourself easily. There are tons of games and you can always find a reasonable speed game.

However, after you climb a few ranks you realize that (almost) no one creates public games anymore. All of a sudden if you want to play games you need to happen to ask someone or search the forum, find a specific thread, get sent a password and maybe then you can join a game.

What compelling reason is there to make people jump through these hoops? They are in effect going through these manual steps to play games with people somewhat near their rank.

Basically - we DO have a rank barrier currently, but it is artificial, clunky and non-obvious. Why not make it something more straightforward and consistent with the rest of the game setup?


Very well said. =D>
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Re: Make a rank barrier for game entry

Postby Mr_Adams on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:32 pm

I still see a widening points gap. we're going to create a deficit bigger than Obama's...
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