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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:38 am

Woodruff wrote:
sully800 wrote:On a darker side, setting rank limits could enable farmers to specifically target new recruits with much less effort (and much less chance that a high ranking player sneaks in anyway).

How, without it being painfully obvious (and thus easy for the ban-hammer to hit when reported)?


Because sully has missed the obvious "any limit should be a +/- range from the game creators rank" part of this. Would be pretty stupid if you could set a limit that would enable yourself to not be allowed in your game. :roll:




Woodruff wrote:.

What, why, when??? Eeh, Hi and welcome back. :o
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby 72o on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:21 am

If you think that 5 is not an accurate rating, you shouldn't assume that people with an average lower than 4.5 are people you shouldn't play.
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby KristenAmazon on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:23 am

Post below lol.
Last edited by KristenAmazon on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby KristenAmazon on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:25 am

I feel like my 4.3 rating is somewhat influenced by the 1/1/1 that a "Darthvadar" left for me simply because I could not play realtime risk. What's funny is that he was online when I attacked him. He had time to deploy and everything, my stack then beat his stack after he deployed it (so that he couldn't deploy or reinforce anything else) while I had 8 men left. He called me a "cheap ass bitch" and left me all 1s :-( I had asked if he was interested in playing realtime at a time where I would be available for a few minutes but I made it clear I understood that 24 hour play was 24 hour play. Idunno. I like to think I'm a relatively pleasant player. :D
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby jefjef on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:34 am

Do not put too much emphasis on ratings.

You have those out there giving 3 almost exclusively.

Those who believe that ratings are to be given in comparison to other players instead of as individual performance as it is intended to be.

You have those that revenge rate. Due to losing or just not liking you or your avi or cuz they take offense to you questioning why they made a stupid ass move & lost the game for both of you.

You have those that rate poorly cuz you attack them AFTER they attacked you.

CC wouldn't let us to put rank limits in to join games. Imagine this will not be allowed either.
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby Thezzaruz on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:27 am

72o wrote:If you think that 5 is not an accurate rating, you shouldn't assume that people with an average lower than 4.5 are people you shouldn't play.


Never said I do. ;)


jefjef wrote: CC wouldn't let us to put rank limits in to join games. Imagine this will not be allowed either.


IMO a rank limit would be better in every way, the ratings are just so misused that it hardly gives us any info at all.
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Re: Setting to not allow low ratings to join

Postby obliterationX on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:29 am

Absolutely no way.

The ratings system is already open to severe abuse, and making exclusive games based on your rating would only increase said abuse.
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby KraphtOne on Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:12 am

Thezzaruz wrote:Because sully has missed the obvious "any limit should be a +/- range from the game creators rank" part of this. Would be pretty stupid if you could set a limit that would enable yourself to not be allowed in your game. :roll:


Ok that sentence is more brilliant than it seems...

In setting a rank limit for a game it would apply to everyone in the game...

So there would be no way to noob farm because if i have a rating of 4000 i would have to set the game to minimum rank X to maximum rank 4000 or else i couldnt play :0)

Great Idea and absolutely no reason not to be able to do this...

Cooks could open up games and not have to worry about majors joining them...

Send It In ...
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby jammyjames on Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:43 am

no need for the maximum score krapht. just a setting saying ranks. i.e have to be ranked sarg...major. col etc etc
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby sully800 on Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:24 am

KraphtOne wrote:
Thezzaruz wrote:Because sully has missed the obvious "any limit should be a +/- range from the game creators rank" part of this. Would be pretty stupid if you could set a limit that would enable yourself to not be allowed in your game. :roll:


Ok that sentence is more brilliant than it seems...

In setting a rank limit for a game it would apply to everyone in the game...

So there would be no way to noob farm because if i have a rating of 4000 i would have to set the game to minimum rank X to maximum rank 4000 or else i couldnt play :0)

Great Idea and absolutely no reason not to be able to do this...

Cooks could open up games and not have to worry about majors joining them...

Send It In ...


I agree that it's a very good idea to say the minimum allowed rank is your own rank. That effectively prevents farming, and is a good solution.

But the other half of the problem still exists: New recruits would find themselves only with low ranking players and therefore would have a worse initial experience and be less likely to remain on the site. At least, that has been the prevailing opinion for the last 3 years and it's why this suggestion has never been implemented.

I understand the concept that you should be able to beat people at your own level before moving up and playing the next level - on many levels it makes sense. But it also segregates the score board and could prevent low ranks from joining a lot of games and that is something CC has been wary of from the get go.
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby Vermont on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:42 am

We have the inverse problem that many people will not create games to avoid the risk of lower ranks joining, either to avoid farming or to avoid the risk of losing additional points.

It's interesting that the rationale used against a solution like this is that new players wouldn't be able to join games against upper ranks, but how often are public games created by top players currently?* Many only create games that can only be joined once someone has found a specific forum and learned that particular secret password, etc.. Rather than making a system like this built into the game we have a clunky, non-obvious interface for playing people of a similar rank, that only a subset of the players know. This then causes there to be even fewer people available to play games against.

If you introduce a system such as I suggested in the following thread you would be able to find MORE games that are available to a wider subset of players, rather than private games that you need to know the secret method for joining that have a smaller pool of players:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=93624&hilit=vermont

Beginners would still create games for beginners and there would still be a similar number of games for them to play against higher level players. (Which would be as it is today - not many, since many upper ranks often use this artificial method of not having to play row ranked players since no proper method exists.)

* I am aware that certain combination of games high players will create for low players to join, team games for example, as their chance of losing is reduced. But try consistently using team finder to locate a non-team speed game against someone of even a moderate rank. You can't because nothing official exists to let people do so, rendering game finder far less useful than it should be.
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Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby mattattam on Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:20 pm

It would be cool if there was an option to create a public game and limit the people who could join to a certain rank. So if you created a game you and are a Captain you don't have to play a game with privates and below or something like that. I know this would be a little harsh on cooks and in particular new recruits. But I think it would be a nice option.

Thoughts or variations?
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Re: Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby Lindax on Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:45 pm

mattattam wrote:It would be cool if there was an option to create a public game and limit the people who could join to a certain rank. So if you created a game you and are a Captain you don't have to play a game with privates and below or something like that. I know this would be a little harsh on cooks and in particular new recruits. But I think it would be a nice option.

Thoughts or variations?


Yep, check out "Callouts" ;)

Lx
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Re: Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby haggispittjr on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:27 pm

just so you know this has been sudgested 1000 times.
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Re: Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby mattattam on Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:53 am

haggispittjr wrote:just so you know this has been sudgested 1000 times.


Well I guess I'm 1001!!! : )
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Re: Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby mattattam on Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:54 am

Yep, check out "Callouts" ;)

Lx[/quote]

Hey thanks I didn't see this before!
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Re: Rank Controlled Public Games

Postby b00060 on Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:39 am

Should not be an idea anymore, but an actual option when creating games!
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby b00060 on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:13 pm

Exactly. I think a lot of people do not create games because they know that a lower rank will join them. I am not sure that we should be protecting the playing experience of cooks. Shouldn't they be playing against other cooks and lower rank and once they get better their rank will get better and thus so with the amount of game that they have to be available for play? Perhaps you should only be able to limit the play to people of your rank or higher at the time.
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby sully800 on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:27 pm

I don't think the concern is specifically with cooks, but rather new recruits (and yes, we should be protecting the new recruits since they are the future members of this site).

A lot of the concerns revolve around this: Most people (save the society of cooks) generally don't like the play with new recruits because of the fear that they deadbeat more often and therefore make the game less enjoyable. The logic then goes that if all new recruits are put together in a game then a potential new player might get stuck with all deadbeats in the first game or two and be less likely to join the site.

On the other hand, if a new recruit gets stuck with extremely high ranking players in their first few games they will probably get clobbered. If that makes them feel like they aren't good at the game then maybe, once again, they abandon. So there are problems on both ends of the spectrum, that is clear. I think the general wish is that new recruits (and really, everyone) will play with all ranks and therefore get players of all types in their games, thus creating a well rounded CC experience. I don't know how effectively it plays out, but this suggestion hasn't offered anything new from the original suggestion that was rejected in 2006 so I don't think anything has changed.

Response from 2006:

lackattack wrote:I don't like this idea. What if it became popular? New recruits would have trouble finding games. They would be stuck in games with other new recruits and their first CC experience would be full of deadbeating.

You only get one chance to make a first impression
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby jammyjames on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:55 pm

Question:

what if i have some real life mates and i want to play a game with them, but they are ranked say luitennant or something. i take it i would just not select the minimum rank option or would this effect my entire game?
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby sully800 on Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:32 pm

jammyjames wrote:Question:

what if i have some real life mates and i want to play a game with them, but they are ranked say luitennant or something. i take it i would just not select the minimum rank option or would this effect my entire game?


If this was ever implemented, I'm assuming the rank limits would be an option and not default. Otherwise tournaments and friends and clans would be severely impacted in a negative way.
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby Vermont on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:04 pm

sully800 wrote:A lot of the concerns revolve around this: Most people (save the society of cooks) generally don't like the play with new recruits because of the fear that they deadbeat more often and therefore make the game less enjoyable. The logic then goes that if all new recruits are put together in a game then a potential new player might get stuck with all deadbeats in the first game or two and be less likely to join the site.


I believe two more significant reasons are that a lost game against a cook due to a bad start results in a significant point loss, and that they are trying to avoid accusations of farming. (Deadbeating may be of more of a concern in non-speed games, but that is not what I primarily play.)

To get back to the main point of this thread, let me try to state my concerns another way, and hopefully get to what I feel is the crux of these changes being rejected, and why I feel strongly that it should be given a second look.

I've been told that the primary reason ideas like this have been rejected is that there is a fear that newer players would not be able to play with high ranking members because the high ranking members would only create games for themselves.

My response to this would be - how does this differ from what is occurring now? High ranking players go and create private games requiring a secret high level password so they can play other players of their same rank. Only this is worse than having an optional rank setting on games, because you can't use gamefinder effectively to find these games, it's non-obvious, requires a trip to the forums to find out how to do this, and isn't used consistently by everyone.

If you setup the rank limitations how I suggest in this post (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=93624) then rank limits are optional on both the low and high end. Here are the benefits I posted before (in my humble opinion):

Vermont wrote: * Players of various levels could actually start games for each other. Currently, they need to somehow learn there is a specific forum thread, learn a secret password, and hope someone has started a game. They can start one themselves but then it is only open to other players who are aware of this artificial, clunky, non-obvious process. What compelling reason is there to make people jump through these hoops? They are in effect going through these manual steps to play games with people somewhat near their rank.
* This would reduce farming accusations for the higher ranked players that want to add a public game.
* New players would be able to play other games against only other new players, if they prefer.
* Players would meet more new players. As it is, many players only play against other players that are aware of the special process for playing people your own level.
* Both settings are optional so you still keep all existing games the way they are.
* Game finder actually becomes useful again for these types of games. I can't tell you how often speed games are searched on and there is nothing from players other than the lowest ranks, since all the others are being done privately (since an option like this does not exist.)


Perhaps there is a good reason for not implementing a solution like this, but I have yet to hear one. The primary reason presented is to avoid an issue that is occurring already. Please let me know know what I am missing here, as I may just be misunderstanding something.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!
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Re: Rank/Score Limits for Joining Games *Rejected*

Postby sully800 on Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:28 pm

Merging
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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby KraphtOne on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:29 pm

sully800 wrote:I agree that it's a very good idea to say the minimum allowed rank is your own rank. That effectively prevents farming, and is a good solution.

But the other half of the problem still exists: New recruits would find themselves only with low ranking players and therefore would have a worse initial experience and be less likely to remain on the site. At least, that has been the prevailing opinion for the last 3 years and it's why this suggestion has never been implemented.

I understand the concept that you should be able to beat people at your own level before moving up and playing the next level - on many levels it makes sense. But it also segregates the score board and could prevent low ranks from joining a lot of games and that is something CC has been wary of from the get go.


It Wouldn't Affect New Recruits As Much As You Think, Most People Don't Care Who Joins Games And Actually Would Prefer Playing New Recruits, But With This You Would Have An Option At Game Start Menu Kinda Like On The Plug-In For Game Finder Where You Can Set Game To Only Allow Certain Scores... For Example If My Score Is 2500 And I Want To Set Up A Feudal Game I Can Set It Up As (Min Rank-1500, Max Rank-Unlimited)... It Would Also Prevent Farming Because Cooks/New Recruits/Privates Could Start Games With Lower Limits To Prevent Farmers From Joining... If I'm A Privite I could Set A Game Up As (Min Rank-Unlimited, Max rank- 1600)

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Re: Minimum Rank...

Postby OliverFA on Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:16 pm

There is a small modification tat would avoid this becoming a segregation option. Limit the rank thresholds the player can place in that way

Lower limit: From 0 to Player Score/2
Upper limit: From Player Score*2

That way a 2000 score player could prevent 900 score players from joining his game, but not 1000 score players.
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Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (1)
Clan Achievement (3) Training Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (5)

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