Rank Restricted Games

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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby Vermont on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:28 am

I have suggested elsewhere that there should be two new features in Start a Game:
- Minimum Rank
- Maximum Rank

These would of course be optional, but would allow new players to play only other new players if they want, or higher ranked players to play each other without having to somehow learn to check the forum, learn a password, and hope that one of the the few other players that use this method is around. (Yes, it's that clunky currently.)

It would let more public games to be created and searched on and simplify the process.
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby squishyg on Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:31 pm

I think the concern with this suggestion is that new players would be frustrated by the lack of games they would be allowed to play if such a filter was put in place. If new players don't join, new premium accounts don't get purchased.
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby Vermont on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:26 pm

At this point how often do high ranking players create public (non-team) games anyway? Many have to go through the clunky process I've mentioned already to find a game. This may not be a problem with slow games, but it definitely is for speed games. Try doing a search for speed games at different times of day for a few days and you'll see what I mean.

With a feature like this, you would still have games new players can't join, but at least now the high level players wouldn't have to jump through hoops (assuming they've even discovered in the forum that there's a secret (as in not part of the provided UI) way to play with other people your own rank.
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby neanderpaul14 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:50 pm

Sun Su wrote:It would be nice to filter the players by their level...... this is so irrational, you've got suicid players, players that help others to win, they miss their turns, they win by pure irrational luck and you lose 100 pts........ I was 6pts away from the swords.... played a few newbies, had bad dice and played a few more newbies... I'm now Sergeant 1st Class..... it's like you kill 5 of'em, you lose twice and you're in for a good -150 pts !

I've got this feeling it's like the casino : the house always win.

We need to filter those suckers !



You might wanna check out this thread in callouts section:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=33055

It's for sergeants and up to create private games amongst each other, and as you climb in the ranks there are other similar threads for various ranks.

Simply go to thread and request the password, then play some private games.
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby Rustovitch on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:07 pm

I am basically a newbie myself, but as I just lost a game due to a complete idiot of a sucidal cook who constantly attacked me over and above the main threat to him I can understand this.
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby Artimis on Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:33 am

Sun Su wrote:It would be nice to filter the players by their level...... this is so irrational, you've got suicid players, players that help others to win, they miss their turns, they win by pure irrational luck and you lose 100 pts........ I was 6pts away from the swords.... played a few newbies, had bad dice and played a few more newbies... I'm now Sergeant 1st Class..... it's like you kill 5 of'em, you lose twice and you're in for a good -150 pts !

I've got this feeling it's like the casino : the house always win.

We need to filter those suckers !


Four things you need to consider before posting:

  • SEARCH! First off, search. Search! Search, search, search, SEARCH! This has been suggested so many times already, it's also been rejected because it would not improve the gaming experience of the majority, in fact it would improve the gaming experience of the minority at the expense of the majority. So this will never happen, ever! You would be aware of this if you had just searched the forum even once.

  • Use the form, noob! Rather than just impatiently deleting the text that appeared in your post typing box, how about you read it and shape your suggestions or bug reports accordingly so that it's easier for the Sug & Bugs mod to process? I'm certain Sully800 would apprciate you making the effort also.

  • Private games. Thirdly, as has already been mentioned, you can make private games and invite only those players that you deem skilled or otherwise qualified enough to join your games. No more irrational suiciders, problem solved.

  • Even you were new once And finally, everyone's got to start somewhere, if you start to segregate users according to rank then you end up with a points aristocracy that imposes a glass ceiling on all new comers regardless of skill. This doesn't benefit the community in any way, shape or form


There you go, all the answers you could want and more, don't say I didn't give you anything.....
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Re: God Damn Newbies !!...

Postby redhawk92 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:17 am

this has been suggested before :D
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Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:53 am

Concise description:
  • Add two additional options to the 'Start a Game' screen; one for minimum rank and one for maximum rank.

Specifics:
  • Here is a screenshot:
    Image
  • Values would be set to every so many hundred points. Maybe every 300 or 500, or bigger ranges as scores increase. This particular aspect is debatable for optimal settings.
  • A player would not have the option to set a min rank higher than their own or a max rank lower than their own. (Those options would not be part of the drop down list).
  • This is a reasonably easy code change.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • Players of various levels could actually start games for each other. Currently, they need to somehow learn there is a specific forum thread, learn a secret password, and hope someone has started a game. They can start one themselves but then it is only open to other players who are aware of this artificial, clunky, non-obvious process. What compelling reason is there to make people jump through these hoops? They are in effect going through these manual steps to play games with people somewhat near their rank.
  • This would reduce farming accusations for the higher ranked players that want to add a public game.
  • New players would be able to play other games against only other new players, if they prefer.
  • Players would meet more new players. As it is, many players only play against other players that are aware of the special process for playing people your own level.
  • Both settings are optional so you still keep all existing games the way they are.
  • Game finder actually becomes useful again for these types of games. I can't tell you how often speed games are searched on and there is nothing from players other than the lowest ranks, since all the others are being done privately (since an option like this does not exist.)

Note:
  • I am aware that similar ideas have been proposed, but I don't believe one specifically like this has been. I believe it eliminates many of the negatives people responded with. I am against a "hard" rank barrier that prevents people from playing lower/higher ranked players always. I am against keeping rank exclusion secret and based on a password. I am against only players in certain ranges being able to play each other at all times.
  • The bottom line is that people can still create games exactly the same way they do now, if they want to. It also lets people who are using this non-obvious process to play similar players to do so now easily, consistently, and far more openly.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Thezzaruz on Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:39 am

Vermont wrote:I am aware that similar ideas have been proposed, but I don't believe one specifically like this has been.


Oh it has... :mrgreen:


Vermont wrote:I believe it eliminates many of the negatives people responded with.


Possible but it still means that rank segregation would be officially condoned and that is the primary reason for it being rejected.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:17 am

But rank segregation is already going on. Just do the occasional search on speed games and that is obvious. Does it matter if it is condoned or not, if it is occurring 90% of the time anyway?

This solution would actually reduce the problem as people could control the range they want and lead to more games being opened up and being searched on.

And this wouldn't be strict segregation anyway. Players would be able to control the min/max ranges of the games they open. This is far different than the other rank segregation ideas that have been presented. I know that is the knee-jerk response, but I believe this to be a reasonable solution to an obscure, inconsistent, game creation/searching process.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby owenshooter on Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:16 am

you can get rank specific games in callouts... this has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways, and it just isn't going to happen. i suggest going to callouts and finding the types of games you want...-0
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:53 am

owenshooter wrote:you can get rank specific games in callouts... this has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways, and it just isn't going to happen. i suggest going to callouts and finding the types of games you want...-0

If people are using the forum for this purpose, then they are doing exactly what you don't want - segregating by rank.

I'll ask again, why are these inconsistent, clunky, methods preferable to actually adding it as a simple game option? You're splitting players into an additional two groups - those who know about and are willing to go through extra steps to play fewer games against a smaller pool of players, and those who don't know (or don't want to use) those methods and play fewer games against a smaller pool of players. You're segregating things into even more groups this way, and I thought that is what you are trying to avoid?

Segregation IS occurring already - do a few speed searches throughout the day to verify this. Adding these options actually adds MORE games back into game finder, and if the selectable ranges are set appropriately large enough, LESS segregation would occur. Let me repeat - LESS segregation would occur. This is in addition to the other benefits I listed.

If the goal is to reduce segregation, please think about how to end this secret password, search the forum, process that is currently segregating players.

Thanks for responding. I think this is a discussion worth having.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby ahunda on Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:59 pm

Just know, that there are many players at the site, who support this suggestion. That is, why it is coming up again and again and again. I remember even a few cases, where lower ranks asked for it, because they wanted the option to create a game without fear of high ranks jumping them for easy points.

But the many people, who have argued the case before you (me included), simply got tired of the ever same "has been rejected before - go to Callouts" responses.

If I were to make a list of favourite suggestions, this would still make my top 3-5 though.

O:)
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby HardAttack on Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:06 pm

owenshooter wrote:you can get rank specific games in callouts... this has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways, and it just isn't going to happen. i suggest going to callouts and finding the types of games you want...-0


Owen, sometimes i am believing on that you are automatically generated message from some computer or something like that. :lol:
Whenever some similar subject as above issued, your SAME message takes place as the 3rd or 4th post reply message. :lol:

Anyway, vermont, exprience is speaking, forget this, this is not going to ever take place. Leave this hope aside. You never will see a submarine to fly in sky :)
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:15 am

I guess I am surprised that something isn't being done to deal with the artificial segregation that is currently occurring. It's not much fun to only be able to play the same small subset of people over and over again, and to have to jump through hoops to do it.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby HardAttack on Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:30 am

Like many, i am in your side on this subject, however what i am saying is that this will never happen.
Do not get exhausted yourself on defending this idea. That is the point. :D
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:24 am

Never give up! Never surrender! :D

But seriously, is "avoiding rank segregation" the reason this idea is being ignored? Because rank segregation is already here; maybe some people just don't want to acknowledge that or play only team games so they have no exposure to it.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby obliterationX on Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:37 am

Great screenshots, unfortunately this will never happen.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Artimis on Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:08 pm

Vermont wrote:
owenshooter wrote:you can get rank specific games in callouts... this has been suggested multiple times in multiple ways, and it just isn't going to happen. i suggest going to callouts and finding the types of games you want...-0

If people are using the forum for this purpose, then they are doing exactly what you don't want - segregating by rank.

I'll ask again, why are these inconsistent, clunky, methods preferable to actually adding it as a simple game option? You're splitting players into an additional two groups - those who know about and are willing to go through extra steps to play fewer games against a smaller pool of players, and those who don't know (or don't want to use) those methods and play fewer games against a smaller pool of players. You're segregating things into even more groups this way, and I thought that is what you are trying to avoid?

Segregation IS occurring already - do a few speed searches throughout the day to verify this. Adding these options actually adds MORE games back into game finder, and if the selectable ranges are set appropriately large enough, LESS segregation would occur. Let me repeat - LESS segregation would occur. This is in addition to the other benefits I listed.

If the goal is to reduce segregation, please think about how to end this secret password, search the forum, process that is currently segregating players.

Thanks for responding. I think this is a discussion worth having.


OP is using flawed logic

By making it easy to set rank limits MORE rank segregation will result. The inherent laziness of human nature insures that the create private games option(premiums only) is used by few people. This helps to ward off rank segregation for the most part.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:24 pm

Artimis wrote:
OP is using flawed logic

By making it easy to set rank limits MORE rank segregation will result. The inherent laziness of human nature insures that the create private games option(premiums only) is used by few people. This helps to ward off rank segregation for the most part.


Actually, I'm not. Do a search on non-team speed games at different times for a few days. Tell me how many you see that have any sort of upper rank. It doesn't happen but rarely - players are already self-segregating. Sure occassionaly a high ranking player starts a speed game, but it is definitely the exception rather than the norm. (Yes, I am aware there are fewer high ranking players, but the gap is exponentially higher than that.)

Rather than attempt to attack my logic, perhaps you should check out the facts for yourself first?

The point (which I'll state again) is that segregation is ALREADY occurring, but it's done in a clunky, non-obvious way, using private games and semi-secret passwords. If you use min and max rank options that are sufficiently big, this would allow players to create more public games (I sure would!), that more people would be allowed to play in, without requiring players to jump through extra hoops.

Edit: fixed typo.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Supermarioluigi on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:12 pm

This has been suggested many times, and always rejected.

So, it's not taking place.
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Vermont on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:47 pm

Supermarioluigi wrote:This has been suggested many times, and always rejected.

So, it's not taking place.


If it's been rejected to prevent segregation then the fact that segregation is now actively, consistently, occurring should at least revive the discussion. Or was there another rationale for rejecting it?
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Re: Minimum & Maximum Rank Options

Postby Supermarioluigi on Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:53 pm

Vermont wrote:
Supermarioluigi wrote:This has been suggested many times, and always rejected.

So, it's not taking place.


If it's been rejected to prevent segregation then the fact that segregation is now actively, consistently, occurring should at least revive the discussion. Or was there another rationale for rejecting it?


Lack himself basically said no.
And when lack says no, you listen.
Once it's been rejected once, even more so several times, it's rarely looked at again.


"Segregation" has been occuring since this site started, and this "idea" has been brought up ever few months or so and rejected each time.


As much as I would love some sort of max/min rank option, it most likely won't.
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Specify a minimum rating to join a game

Postby BrutalBob on Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:34 am

Concise description:
    When creating a game you can specify a minimum rating (not rank) of players that can join.

Specifics:
    When joining an existing game I can avoid games with those whom others have rated poorly, which is the intention of the rating system.

    When you create a game you cant stop these twits from joining it.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    This will provide some incentive to behave in a civil manner if they cannot join games because people dont want to play with them
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Re: Specify a minimum rating to join a game

Postby alstergren on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:47 pm

BrutalBob wrote:Concise description:
    When creating a game you can specify a minimum rating (not rank) of players that can join.

Specifics:
    When joining an existing game I can avoid games with those whom others have rated poorly, which is the intention of the rating system.

    When you create a game you cant stop these twits from joining it.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
    This will provide some incentive to behave in a civil manner if they cannot join games because people dont want to play with them


Dunno. IMO - if you create a public game, well, you get what you get. You can always play private games or foe people.

If this suggestion would be eventually implemented - it would be beneficial with a default setting (general default if not changed, 0.0) that applies to all games (instead of having to specify for each game set up, the game setting up process is cumbersome as it is already).
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Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (20)
General Achievement (12) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (1) Challenge Achievement (4) Tournament Contribution (32)

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