Playback/Replay/Rewind/Review/History Game Feature

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Re: saving state of map every round for future reference

Postby mcshanester29 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:17 pm

tarcellius wrote:The BOB script, which I have used for a long time now, is a poor replacement for true replay support. In my opinion, the goals of this project should be:

1) Allow a player to see the board at the start of any past turn (not just between rounds) with whatever board visibility the player had at that time. Imagine giving the player as much information as if he had checked the game before every single player's turn and taken a picture of the board. This more closely mimics a real board game played in person, while still supporting fog. Outside of freestyle games, there should be no advantage on a turn-based game site for the player who checks his games all the time to get extra BOB snapshots. Other turn-based game sites support exactly this feature and there is no reason conquer club should not.

2) Make the feature universally available, not an add-on. Don't give an advantage to players who happen to know about a particular greasemonkey script. Don't force players to run greasemonkey scripts (which should be avoided whenever possible, from a browser performance perspective) just to use a basic replay feature. Don't rely on players remembering to click a snapshot button just to have some replay support.

3) Remove the need for courtesy rules like "at the start of the game, allow 12 hours for the opposing team to grab a snapshot before moving". This rule is used in many tournaments because the BOB script is the default replay support. This situation just leads to friction between players. Sometimes the rule is honored, sometimes not, and sometimes it is assumed even when the tournament didn't suggest it. If true support was available the courtesy rule would be totally unnecessary. The playing field would be level without it.

Anyway, I went looking for this thread again today and was disappointed to see that it has been hijacked by discussion of the BOB script. The BOB script is NOT a good solution.

I agree with this and would like to see it implemented
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Re: saving state of map every round for future reference

Postby Robespierre__ on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:33 pm

I would like to add my $.02 to this thread. AT MINUMUM there should be a starting position snap feature so we all can join games and not fret over our opponent's joining after us and making moves that we can't see. It is too sensible, no?
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Re: saving state of map every round for future reference

Postby ckyrias on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:55 am

tarcellius wrote:The BOB script, which I have used for a long time now, is a poor replacement for true replay support. In my opinion, the goals of this project should be:

1) Allow a player to see the board at the start of any past turn (not just between rounds) with whatever board visibility the player had at that time. Imagine giving the player as much information as if he had checked the game before every single player's turn and taken a picture of the board. This more closely mimics a real board game played in person, while still supporting fog. Outside of freestyle games, there should be no advantage on a turn-based game site for the player who checks his games all the time to get extra BOB snapshots. Other turn-based game sites support exactly this feature and there is no reason conquer club should not.

2) Make the feature universally available, not an add-on. Don't give an advantage to players who happen to know about a particular greasemonkey script. Don't force players to run greasemonkey scripts (which should be avoided whenever possible, from a browser performance perspective) just to use a basic replay feature. Don't rely on players remembering to click a snapshot button just to have some replay support.

3) Remove the need for courtesy rules like "at the start of the game, allow 12 hours for the opposing team to grab a snapshot before moving". This rule is used in many tournaments because the BOB script is the default replay support. This situation just leads to friction between players. Sometimes the rule is honored, sometimes not, and sometimes it is assumed even when the tournament didn't suggest it. If true support was available the courtesy rule would be totally unnecessary. The playing field would be level without it.

Anyway, I went looking for this thread again today and was disappointed to see that it has been hijacked by discussion of the BOB script. The BOB script is NOT a good solution.


agree 110%

BOB is not the solution. is a cover to the true problem at hand. there are people who wait 12 hours and people who don't. even if someone waits for 12 hours there is not guarantee whatsoever that the opponent will check the board before start. for people (like me) who have on average 100 games active it means i have to search for every game i join ith fog and monitor when my opponent joins to get the snap!! the joy of this game is the game itself not browsing between 100 games to see if you have a snap! on foggy games both players or teams should be able to see at least the start of the board. even better if what Tarc suggested can be implemented. it should be if you ask me. i love foggy games but they are quite unbalanced the way its played...
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Re: saving state of map every round for future reference

Postby chapcrap on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:34 pm

ckyrias wrote:For people (like me) who have on average 100 games active it means i have to search for every game i join ith fog and monitor when my opponent joins to get the snap!! the joy of this game is the game itself not browsing between 100 games to see if you have a snap!

This.

I'm sorry if I've not let you see a map before, but I just don't have the time to monitor it when I'm playing in 150 games plus doing all my other stuff. If it could snap automatically when the games starts, that would be great.
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Re: saving state of map every round for future reference

Postby greenoaks on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:14 pm

perhaps a techie could let us know what increase this would add to a games file size
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Re: Game History

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:54 pm

Support.
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The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby Goldmaster123 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 pm

Concise description:
  • A "play" button available in archived games which would allow the viewer to see the game play out from the start, probably in faster-than-normal speed.

Specifics/Details:
  • I don't know how much information CC stores about games, but I know that the game log would not have all required info to make this work. Maybe, there could be no need for troops, and instead, there would simply be an indication of who owns what territory at any given time. I.e., the letter "y" would be shown instead of a yellow 10 which was on Kamchatka. This would also avoid any need to record the outcome of battles. I just thought this would be a neat thing to see because, when I view an archived, finished game, there is very little I can see from the final image and cipher from the difficult-to-read game log. If, however, it is possible to record details such as the number on any province at any time, then that would be great too. Alternatively, if this would take up too much memory, then it could just be a feature that shows the map as it appears at the end of every player's turn, freestyle or sequential. One would then see a sort of slideshow of map progression.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • I love this site because it lets me play a game which has both elements of chaos and order in it. I revel the strategy and game theory involved - how one has to account for the possibility of bad dice, diplomacy, etc. Either way, being able to review games would benefit the community because it would allow players to learn from archived games. One could study an opponent and find his general strategy. Maybe one could see how being risky worked or not in a certain map. Either way, I find that it will revitalize the site's massive population of archived, forgotten maps, bring a new element into the site's options, and create a use for the finished games other than re-visiting them to look at how many points you earned that one time when you beat everyone in an 8-man FFA.
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby chapcrap on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:45 am

I would not be opposed to this. Been suggested before in various ways. Here are most... I won't say all, because I'm not sure I found them all.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165642
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154867
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=144479
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=137893
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=110190
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=37347
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=153100

Some hindrances have been discussed here as well: viewtopic.php?f=535&t=138522
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby Goldmaster123 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:01 pm

I reviewed the ones you mentioned. The only complaints I found were as follows.

This would interfere with strategy during the game. As the name suggests, this device would only be available post-game. As such, there would be no interference, only review.

It would take up too much memory. This is true. However, as I mentioned, there are various degrees to which this "slideshow" can work. I recommend just saving the game state at the end of each player's turn. This is applicable to both freestyle and sequential, lifts a burden from potential info that the site has to store, and avoids the possibility that if a player leaves his turn going, you wouldn't be stuck watching nothing for 50 minutes.

I believe that my approach (pressing a "play button" or having "slides" that show each game state at a given time) is more effective than the others. My point is that it avoids the aforementioned faults and creates, essentially, a more readable game log. I also find that this would be a great addition for administrators for checking for abuse/cheating complaints in games (I may have mentioned this, but it is important).
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby Goldmaster123 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:04 pm

chapcrap wrote:I would not be opposed to this. Been suggested before in various ways. Here are most... I won't say all, because I'm not sure I found them all.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165642
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154867
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=144479
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=137893
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=110190
viewtopic.php?f=471&t=37347
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=153100

Some hindrances have been discussed here as well: viewtopic.php?f=535&t=138522


In addition to what I wrote above, I think the multiple requests demonstrate how much the community wants this. According to a multi-hunter: "I would love this. This would make my job easier" (It's in one of the quoted forum topics).

My question is: Is this being looked into?
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby maxfaraday on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:25 pm

Actually I've been thinking for a while writing an app for that...
Just too lazy to get started.
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby chapcrap on Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:40 pm

I wasn't trying to detract from the suggestion at all with my first post. As I said, I would be in favor. I think the biggest issue would be the memory that it would take. I remember in one of the threads, someone combated this by saying that perhaps someone's replays could be saved for only a week or two afterwards and then erased. I think that could be a good solution.

If players were allowed to erase their replays as well, that would save memory. And the default setting could be that everyone's replays were automatically erased unless they choose to save them.

I'm not sure how difficult the coding would be. I'm sure it's been addressed in one of the other threads.
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Re: The Post-facto Game Reviewer

Postby Goldmaster123 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:50 pm

chapcrap wrote:I wasn't trying to detract from the suggestion at all with my first post. As I said, I would be in favor. I think the biggest issue would be the memory that it would take. I remember in one of the threads, someone combated this by saying that perhaps someone's replays could be saved for only a week or two afterwards and then erased. I think that could be a good solution.

If players were allowed to erase their replays as well, that would save memory. And the default setting could be that everyone's replays were automatically erased unless they choose to save them.

I'm not sure how difficult the coding would be. I'm sure it's been addressed in one of the other threads.


And I wasn't trying to attack you. The point behind my post is, in my opinion, I sum up what the community desires well, why it desires it, and how to get there. I program in Java, so I couldn't really do this. However, I've been giving it some thought. Really, all that has to be saved is the initial state of the game. This can be transcribed not into a gif but rather a 2-d string array. The first element, a 1-d string array, could be an array of the terits that red owns, in strings. The second element in the 2-d array would be a 1-d array of, say, the strings of the names of the terits that yellow owns or whoever is after red. If the game is automatic, this is easy. Its initial state is 3 on each one. If the game is manual, then there's still no problem - the log saves the deployment. The initial stat would be 1, then deployment could be factored in by reading a log. Then, every turn, as some other poster mentioned, there could simply be an "in-depth" log that really only includes one more thing. Battle records:

Bob (Edmonton, 2 troops lost) failed to conquer Alice (Quebec, 1 troop lost).

Notice this would have to record when someone fails to conquer and, just to be succinct, only displays the results of an entire battle between terits. In cases of bombardment, It would just say:

Bob(Edmonton, 1 troop lost) successfully bombarded Alice (Ontario).

Also take note that the way I have it, unlike the poster who had this idea, there is no need to display how many troops are left since the initial game state is saved. With the initial "array" and a log that is only barely more in depth, this would require little on memory's part. However, there would have to be an algorithm which calculates the result at the end of each player's turn based on the state at the beginning of the turn, and then the log. This may be the only difficult part, imo.
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Record and Replay Game History

Postby martingale on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:22 pm

This has probably been suggested before, but is it possible (after games are finished) to have a game replay option? A player's deployments and territories conquered/lost is already recorded in the game log, so that info is available.

For instance after you play a chess game you can go back and review the moves, step by step.

The one complication I see is that the game log also needs to do a hidden recording of troops lost/gained per area per turn for this to work. So if this data is unrecorded, then the replay isn't possible for old games.

It would be fantastic if this is implemented in the future though for new games. If data storage is an issue, then replays can be "available" for a certain number of days, e.g. 10 days, before the data is deleted. That should give us plenty of time to analyze our moves.
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Re: Record and Replay Game History

Postby agentcom on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:30 am

I think that data storage may be the issue, as you pointed out. Based on what I've seen mods say in C&A, there isn't any way to look at this now, so that means (probably) that the data isn't stored. Just off the top of my head, I would guess that this could double the amount of information stored each game (maybe more, maybe less). That's quite a bit of extra information for CC to store.

This has been, in one form or another, suggested before. I would guess that you could search suggestions for "replay" or something like that and find it.
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