Deleting Games

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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby AAFitz on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Im in that tourney, and I got that pm, and I joined the right game...but im not at all surprised people joined more than one

Im not saying its your fault...but something like that has to be fail-safe...

I wont even give out passwords, because I know people will join the wrong game...i give them the one and only autojoin link, and that way theyd have to do a lot of work to end up on the wrong team or the wrong game...

they did disregard the notice...but its easy to make that mistake... thats the trouble with auto-links...
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:49 pm

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Devil's advocates mode: Did all the games have the same password?


Considering it was using auto-join, essentially yes.

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:Reality mode: People are stupid. Its why so many people spend time organising them.


Spend time organizing the stupid people?

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:Different angle mode: Is there any way that CC could create an interface to allow Tournament Manager to create games based on a input table? So rather than going through... map, options, tournament name etc etc the TM could create a dataset (Access table; spreadsheet; csv file) that would be submitted via the interface and create the games.


I like that you're thinking outside of the box, but I'm not sure what you're getting at, to be honest. Do you speak non-geek? <smile>
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:53 pm

jpcloet wrote:Here's and interesting thought, your tournament was so desirable he had to join all the games as he was so excited...


Always with the glass-half-full! <laughing>

jpcloet wrote:I know you want to save pm's but if you had sent smaller more direct pm's, it could have been avoided.


Sure, but you're talking about 64 PMs for every round. I'd give up the tournament before I'd be willing to do that, to be honest.

jpcloet wrote:I almost did the same thing as the email was a bit confusing. (I had to read the pm several times to make sure I was doing the right thing)


It was confusing? Hmm...I'm certainly willing to restructure the PM I send out to make it less confusing, so I'd be happy to hear so input on that. But I'd need the input because...well...it's pretty non-confusing to me (granted, being the PM-writer, I'm probably biased). But in this particular case, the statement to JOIN ONLY YOUR ONE GAME was underlined and everything...sort of hard to miss.

jpcloet wrote:Also if you changed the format, like this, you'll get more stable responses.
Please join the game beside your name only
jpcloet Game 1
codierose Game 2
etc.


But is that much different from what I did send out? The only real difference is that you list only one name per game whereas I listed two.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:57 pm

AAFitz wrote:Im in that tourney, and I got that pm, and I joined the right game...but im not at all surprised people joined more than one
Im not saying its your fault...but something like that has to be fail-safe...
I wont even give out passwords, because I know people will join the wrong game...i give them the one and only autojoin link, and that way theyd have to do a lot of work to end up on the wrong team or the wrong game...
they did disregard the notice...but its easy to make that mistake... thats the trouble with auto-links...


I'm interested in thoughts on how I can restructure my PM to still send it out to multiple people (it's simply not worth it to me to send out 64 individual PMs for every round) and yet get the clarity that's needed to avoid this confusion.

jpcloet offered one thought that I'm going to try if I don't hear any other suggestions, but I'm not sure it would be much more successful than what I have given that the essential problem will still exist (someone not paying attention clicking on everything).

If you (or anyone else) has some thoughts on that, please feel free to send them my way. I'm all ears.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby GenuineEarlGrey on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:24 pm

Woodruff wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:Different angle mode: Is there any way that CC could create an interface to allow Tournament Manager to create games based on a input table? So rather than going through... map, options, tournament name etc etc the TM could create a dataset (Access table; spreadsheet; csv file) that would be submitted via the interface and create the games.

I like that you're thinking outside of the box, but I'm not sure what you're getting at, to be honest. Do you speak non-geek? <smile>

At the moment you have to enter every game by hand.

Instead, how would you like it if you could do this:
  • create a file, say a spreadsheet.
  • Each column would have one of the options you see in the "Start A Game" window.
  • The first row would be the names of the rows (Number of players, Game type....)
  • The remaining rows would each be a different game.
  • You could send that file to the CC server.
  • The server would create all the games in your file.


Example. Say we were going to play best of three games on different settings. The file might look like this:
No GameType Map Order Spoils Reinforce Fog Round Password
2 Standard Scotland Sequential None Adjacent No 24hour Hamish
2 Standard Ireland Sequential Esc Chained Yes Speed Patrick
2 Standard Australia Freestyle Flat Unlimited Yes Speed Bruce

You could then "send" the file to the CC server either by email or another screen and it would generate the games for you.

What do you think?

E.G.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:35 pm

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:Different angle mode: Is there any way that CC could create an interface to allow Tournament Manager to create games based on a input table? So rather than going through... map, options, tournament name etc etc the TM could create a dataset (Access table; spreadsheet; csv file) that would be submitted via the interface and create the games.

I like that you're thinking outside of the box, but I'm not sure what you're getting at, to be honest. Do you speak non-geek? <smile>

At the moment you have to enter every game by hand.

Instead, how would you like it if you could do this:
  • create a file, say a spreadsheet.
  • Each column would have one of the options you see in the "Start A Game" window.
  • The first row would be the names of the rows (Number of players, Game type....)
  • The remaining rows would each be a different game.
  • You could send that file to the CC server.
  • The server would create all the games in your file.


Example. Say we were going to play best of three games on different settings. The file might look like this:
No GameType Map Order Spoils Reinforce Fog Round Password
2 Standard Scotland Sequential None Adjacent No 24hour Hamish
2 Standard Ireland Sequential Esc Chained Yes Speed Patrick
2 Standard Australia Freestyle Flat Unlimited Yes Speed Bruce
You could then "send" the file to the CC server either by email or another screen and it would generate the games for you.
What do you think?
E.G.


Well, that would be nice for what it would do, certainly...but it would still leave the problem of players potentially joining the wrong games, as I don't believe this would alleviate the PM side of things.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Kotaro on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:38 pm

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:

Instead, how would you like it if you could do this:
  • create a file, say a spreadsheet.
  • Each column would have one of the options you see in the "Start A Game" window.
  • The first row would be the names of the rows (Number of players, Game type....)
  • The remaining rows would each be a different game.
  • You could send that file to the CC server.
  • The server would create all the games in your file.


Example. Say we were going to play best of three games on different settings. The file might look like this:
No GameType Map Order Spoils Reinforce Fog Round Password
2 Standard Scotland Sequential None Adjacent No 24hour Hamish
2 Standard Ireland Sequential Esc Chained Yes Speed Patrick
2 Standard Australia Freestyle Flat Unlimited Yes Speed Bruce

You could then "send" the file to the CC server either by email or another screen and it would generate the games for you.

What do you think?


What's the point of making a tournament then?
I have fun making tournaments. Entering the games, matching people up, selecting settings, and even dealing with the mistakes. It's all about fun. If you're not enjoying what you're doing, stop doing it.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:02 pm

Kotaro wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Instead, how would you like it if you could do this:
  • create a file, say a spreadsheet.
  • Each column would have one of the options you see in the "Start A Game" window.
  • The first row would be the names of the rows (Number of players, Game type....)
  • The remaining rows would each be a different game.
  • You could send that file to the CC server.
  • The server would create all the games in your file.

Example. Say we were going to play best of three games on different settings. The file might look like this:
No GameType Map Order Spoils Reinforce Fog Round Password
2 Standard Scotland Sequential None Adjacent No 24hour Hamish
2 Standard Ireland Sequential Esc Chained Yes Speed Patrick
2 Standard Australia Freestyle Flat Unlimited Yes Speed Bruce
You could then "send" the file to the CC server either by email or another screen and it would generate the games for you.
What do you think?


What's the point of making a tournament then?
I have fun making tournaments. Entering the games, matching people up, selecting settings, and even dealing with the mistakes. It's all about fun. If you're not enjoying what you're doing, stop doing it.


I can't speak for anyone else, but for me personally, the fun of running a tournament is NOT in the logistical end of things. It's in watching the competitions themselves. For me, anything that can make the logistical parts of running a tournament easier is a good thing.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby GenuineEarlGrey on Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:36 pm

Kotaro wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Instead, how would you like it if you could do this:
  • create a file, say a spreadsheet. [etc etc]

You could then "send" the file to the CC server either by email or another screen and it would generate the games for you.

What do you think?

What's the point of making a tournament then?
I have fun making tournaments. Entering the games, matching people up, selecting settings, and even dealing with the mistakes. It's all about fun. If you're not enjoying what you're doing, stop doing it.


The point I'm making is simple - its only another way to enter the games.

The idea is to take away some of the monotony for you, espeially when you want to make the tournaments bigger. For example, there's an on-going tournament involving a round robin with twenty players each playing wach other twice - thats 380 games (760=20*19*(0.5)*2). The TM asked players to wait until all the games were entered - problem was, by the time he entered the last one, the early ones had expired!

Woodruff wrote:I can't speak for anyone else, but for me personally, the fun of running a tournament is NOT in the logistical end of things. It's in watching the competitions themselves. For me, anything that can make the logistical parts of running a tournament easier is a good thing.

Exactly! Its "only" a method of data entry.

Its even a good way to work out all the games you need before you enter them in the traditional manner.

I'll happily work together with anyone* that wants an example.

E.G.

* All offers subject to the requester being a good collaborator
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Optimus Prime on Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:39 am

Games are only deleted under extreme circumstances because it requires database alterations which are not the most desirable things to deal with. The ability to have others besides lackattack delete games will eventually result in a database that is very incomplete, not to mention much more prone to errors and corruption.

It is best to avoid deletion of database information if at all possible when working with the complex setup that this site is likely to have running behind the scenes. It creates gaps and holes all over the place, not just in one part of the database, but in several.

While it is unfortunate that the games were ruined, it is a learning experience that can be avoided in the future.

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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:02 am

I never ever send players games that they aren't supposed to be in because I expect that if I do that someone will do what happens here. I don't really like it when other organizers send me all the games in the round with instructions to find mine as I find it to be lazy. Some tournaments take a while to get the PMs out because of this (for instance, to start the Battle of Escalating supremacy I sent out 100 PMs the first day and over 700 overall for Round 1). My feeling is and has been that as the TO I am taking on the responsibility to make sure the tournament is well run and organized. Sometimes I will make mistakes and have to go correct them of course but personally I'm unsympathetic to the claim that 64 PMs in Round 1 is too many.

Also, if you think its tough now, when I started doing tournaments every player HAD to be individually PMed as there wasn't a method to send to more than one player at a time. It was a good lesson in cut and paste.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Megadeth666 on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:36 am

jpcloet wrote:Here's and interesting thought, your tournament was so desirable he had to join all the games as he was so excited....

I know you want to save pm's but if you had sent smaller more direct pm's, it could have been avoided. I almost did the same thing as the email was a bit confusing. (I had to read the pm several times to make sure I was doing the right thing) Using Excel I'm sure you can find a way to template a message.

Also if you changed the format, like this, you'll get more stable responses.

Please join the game beside your name only

jpcloet Game 1

codierose Game 2etc.


I WAS GONNA REPLY WITH A SIMILAR POST AS ABOVE....
I HAVE SCREWED A COUPLE GAMES UP MYSELF ,AND WISHED I COULD DELETE THEM.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED TOURS, I WOULD SEND OUT INDIVIDUAL PM'S...BUT IT TOOK FOR EVER
THAN AFTER SOME THAT I PARTICIPATED IN JUST 1 MASS PM WOULD BE SENT OUT, TELLING YOU TO JOIN JUST THAT GAME....SO I STARTED DOING THAT, AND IT SAVED ALOT OF TIME
GOTTA TRUST THE PEOPLE YOU LET JOIN AND EMPHISIZE TO ONLY JOIN THE GAMES NEXT TO YOUR NAME

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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby GenuineEarlGrey on Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:22 pm

Woodruff wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:[Talk about the spreadsheet approach, see above for details]

Well, that would be nice for what it would do, certainly...but it would still leave the problem of players potentially joining the wrong games, as I don't believe this would alleviate the PM side of things.

It would help. Your spreadsheet would help you keep track of (or generate if the system database were to) password protected games. You'd then have to send out the passwords.

Would that make it any easier?

E.G.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:06 pm

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
GenuineEarlGrey wrote:[Talk about the spreadsheet approach, see above for details]

Well, that would be nice for what it would do, certainly...but it would still leave the problem of players potentially joining the wrong games, as I don't believe this would alleviate the PM side of things.

It would help. Your spreadsheet would help you keep track of (or generate if the system database were to) password protected games. You'd then have to send out the passwords.
Would that make it any easier?
E.G.


The passwords I used for my previous tournaments were randomly generated already. But that being said, passwords don't matter if the thing is "auto-joined", which is REALLY what caused the problem. By my trying to make it easier on the players, I basically created the ease by which these players screwed things up.
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby GenuineEarlGrey on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:50 pm

Woodruff wrote:passwords don't matter if the thing is "auto-joined"

auto-joined is that geek-speak <sniggers> for just joining a public game?

Woodruff wrote:By my trying to make it easier on the players, I basically created the ease by which these players screwed things up.

Yup! That's people for you. Had a similar experience in a tournament involving real people. Left the Assistant T.M. to it so I could start my match - things disintegrated from there.

People, can't live with them, can't live without them. (well, you can, but it gets quiet).
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Re: Deleting Tournament Games

Postby Woodruff on Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:32 am

GenuineEarlGrey wrote:
Woodruff wrote:passwords don't matter if the thing is "auto-joined"


auto-joined is that geek-speak <sniggers> for just joining a public game?


Heh...no. There is a capability (usually used only by tournament organizers in my experience, but can be used by anyone) to send someone a link to join a game where all they have to do is click the link. No need for them to even know what the password is (although the password is still required to create the game).
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