BBS explains why the Holocaust is funny

[Neoteny]

That's fair enough, I think. I don't recall the anti-Catholic threads in question, but the only thing I can think of that would make the situation different would be if they were intended to be serious discussions of Catholicism.

I do see a difference between a Hitler joke thread and a thread discussing priestly indiscretions. If the latter were serious, it would be uncomfortable, but likely necessary discussion. But a thread using the priests to make fun of Catholics or some such would be roughly equivalent.

I guess a few responses. First, the threads in question were not serious discussions of Catholicism (JB would disagree). I've participated in serious discussion of Catholicism (and am willing to participate in said discussions). Second, they were not threads making fun of Catholics, although maybe they were intended that way. There was not, for example, a thread with fake movie names making fun of priests (which ultimately I would have been fine with). They also, I might note, were threads both here (around the time I was a moderator) and in McGill.

In any event, all that above is not ultimately the point. The point is that if I asked JB to stop, like he asked me to stop, I expected him to stop, like I stopped. Since that's not what happened, JB is a douchebag. We should treat our internet friends with at least a modicum of respect, or at least follow the Golden Rule (treat people like you want to be treated). I treated JB like he wanted to be treated, he did not reciprocate. If he wanted to have a serious discussion about the Catholic Church and its various abuses, he could have created a thread or participated in one of the various threads on the subject of religion (that doesn't have to do with creationism) that abound in this forum. Instead he posted in various of pimpdave's "let's see how much I get away with" Catholic threads and the private McGill usergroup (which is not really intended for serious discussions, generally).

I'm not asking you to take a side, I'm just trying to illustrate the problem I have with JB so that people don't misunderstand. It's like this... Your best friend said "Stop punching me in the arm all the time" and you stopped, because he's your friend. And ten minutes later your friend starts punching you in the leg. You say "Stop," and he says, "No" and continues to punch you in the leg. When you tell your other friends he's a douchebag, he says "Punching Neoteny in the leg is not the same as when he punched me in the arm because punching in the arm is more hurtful and because punching in the leg has more validity than punches to the arm."

I'm not really looking to take a side. I'm just parsing. Just to get a grasp on what's going on.

[stahrgazer]

TG, most of your points are valid, but not this: "Dropping the bomb on them was an act of kicking them while they were down to beat them into submission."

The Japanese were not stopping, not surrendering; were not acting like they were submitting at all, they were sending kamikaze (suicide bombers) in to do what damage they could before they died. The bomb was dropped to MAKE THEM STOP so we could focus elsewhere; and it worked.

[Juan_Bottom]

You've already dragged out the "TGD doesn't care about Holocaust victims" a few other times in this thread. My response question, which you have yet to answer, is what, apart from the one movie title I posted in the thread in question, leads you to believe I do not care about Holocaust victims? I would enjoy hearing how you've reached this conclusion.

I did enjoy that thread and I have not denied it. I did stop to avoid hurting your feelings, which is precisely what you asked me and everyone else to do.

I did answer this, in pretty much every single post that I've made. I've drummed it.
You answered your own question with pretty much my exact words right there.
You didn't stop the thread or protest anything in it. You don't care about the victims at all, or you wouldn't have insulted their living memory by participating. You only stopped to protect my feelings, and that's incredulous. And you even did it in a patronizing why and repeatedly question my integrity. You don't care. Look at you now.... "We made jokes about the Holocaust, so what? You insulted Catholics." You don't care. At least I'm man enough to say that I don't care about a Catholic's feelings when discussing their participation in protecting child predators. You're so condescending saying "Oh I took the high road and I pretended to care." You even said in the totenkopf thread that you don't care. You don't do anything just on the grounds of humanity.

You simply don't understand what the golden rule is. It's true, I think, that it's the best expression of the Christian Bible. The great & infamous American hero John Brown said that it was the Golden Rule that inspired him to invade the South and free the slaves. For if he, John Brown, were in chains, he would wish for someone to help him.
You see, the Golden Rule is something to live by at all times, not when someone comes up to you and asks you why you're being a jerk. It should never get that far. But even now you're defiant and saying you enjoy Holocaust jokes. You don't care. John brown cared, Jesus cared, but you don't. Not really... You're not sitting on the moral high ground here just by evoking the Golden Rule.

I do care... I'd never thought of the totenkopf being offensive, but after hearing out GeneralRisk I instantly sympathized with him and I understood him. But what about you? How much did you sympathize?
You said that any avi should be allowed and he should be banned for starting the C&A thread. You don't care.

Holocaust victims and grandchildren of potential Holocaust victims are not synonyms.

I'm not sure that you understand. The living memory of the Holocaust is the people who are still alive who lived through it. It's their family's who have been born into that inherited understanding, and it's the monuments and memorials that exist all over Europe. It's also a part of the lives of Europeans who have experienced the other pogroms in Russia and Bosnia. They understand it, and they aren't all dead or irrelevant to your freedom to laugh at the Holocaust. There's a cloud that hangs over that part of the world, and it's a cloud of a powerfully shared experience, even for those that weren't alive when it happened.

[Juan_Bottom]

Dude, I don't think tg has any valid points about the topic at hand. TG, You can go start a WWII history thread if you want to, but I'll tell you right now that I know that I have more knowledge on this subject of Japanese-Asia relations than you do. Don't think that because I spoke simply that you are therefore in the commanding position. I only did that because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually had no idea what the movie Dr Strangelove was about. And although you don't have any idea what the movie is about, arguing about real historical facts isn't going to make you appear more knowledgeable about Peter Sellers' or Stanley Kubrik's satire. Why did you pick that movie over the Mouse that Roared?

didn't cause an outrage. Why? Because nobody gives a shit. Get over it.

Ok, you obviously can't think today.
1) That first offensive thread was locked, and I didn't have anything to do with it. Obviously someone cared.
2) A half a dozen people or more have voiced support for the banning of Nazi symbols and offensive jokes, including lack.
3) I give a shit
4) neoteny gives a shit
5) I've gotten messages about this thread from people who care, but don't want to be attacked by you unsympathetic jerks.
6) You're so butthurt you're desperately trying to claim that through good reasoning you've discovered that I must believe that Dr Strangelove offends all Japanese people. So obviously you're outraged about something.

And yet many Japanese lived in fear for years after the attack, afraid they'd be bombed again. How do you think Godzilla came about?

Ok, so Godzilla offends the Japanese because it's about bombs? Just like Dr Strangelove?

[thegreekdog]

I did answer this, in pretty much every single post that I've made. I've drummed it.
You answered your own question with pretty much my exact words right there.
You didn't stop the thread or protest anything in it. You don't care about the victims at all, or you wouldn't have insulted their living memory by participating. You only stopped to protect my feelings, and that's incredulous. And you even did it in a patronizing why and repeatedly question my integrity. You don't care. Look at you now.... "We made jokes about the Holocaust, so what? You insulted Catholics." You don't care. At least I'm man enough to say that I don't care about a Catholic's feelings when discussing their participation in protecting child predators. You're so condescending saying "Oh I took the high road and I pretended to care." You even said in the totenkopf thread that you don't care. You don't do anything just on the grounds of humanity.

Wait - are you the victim or are Holocaust victims the victims? I care about Holocaust victims. I care about people who lost family members to the Holocaust. You seem to care about your reputation and your position regarding this issue and that's pretty much it. That shows what kind of person you are. And goddamn right I will condescend to someone like you. I did take the high road. And I will continue to take the high road. And I will continue to condescend to you. I treated you with respect in the past. You treated me like shit. So, yeah, I'm taking the high road. And you can continue to take the low road.

You simply don't understand what the golden rule is. It's true, I think, that it's the best expression of the Christian Bible. The great & infamous American hero John Brown said that it was the Golden Rule that inspired him to invade the South and free the slaves. For if he, John Brown, were in chains, he would wish for someone to help him.
You see, the Golden Rule is something to live by at all times, not when someone comes up to you and asks you why you're being a jerk. It should never get that far. But even now you're defiant and saying you enjoy Holocaust jokes. You don't care. John brown cared, Jesus cared, but you don't. Not really... You're not sitting on the moral high ground here just by evoking the Golden Rule.

John Brown said, "I think I did right, and that others will do right who interfere with you at any time and at all times. I hold that the Golden Rule, "Do unto oth­ers as ye would that others should do unto you," applies to all who would help others to gain their liberty." This is not a difficult statement to comprehend. It has nothing to do with caring about the underlying issue. I was doing exactly what John Brown intimated. And what are you doing? What is something you believe in JB? Seriously. Give me something that, deep down in your heart, you believe in. Because I'm going to vomit all over it in this forum and when you ask me politely to stop, i'm not going to.

And nice job with the false equivalence. You've brought up slavery, John Brown, and Jesus. I think you would have brought up the Japanese and the atomic bomb if TG hadn't brought it up first. What else you got? Title IX? Jim Crow laws? A thread with movie titles is not equivalent to these things. Stop trying to make it equivalent so you can attempt to give weight to your absurd hypocrisy.

I do care... I'd never thought of the totenkopf being offensive, but after hearing out GeneralRisk I instantly sympathized with him and I understood him.

Wait, what's that? You didn't think the totenkopf was offensive until someone told you that he found it offensive? And that caused you to change your mind? Was GeneralRisk then making disparaging remarks about your religion? Did you ask him to stop and then he didn't?

Let me guess, this isn't the same thing as our situation because not only did you stop doing whatever it was you were doing, but you sympathized with him and understood him?

I'm not sure that you understand.

That's not true at all. You are definitively sure that I don't understand. While knowing merely 1% about me, you've made the determination that I have no understanding of the Holocaust and could not possibly understand anything to do with the Holocaust. You're such a hypocrit dude. Seriously.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Okay, Juan. Let me start simply.

What do you think of A Modest Proposal? Swifte uses satire to bring attention to the suffering of the then-starving Irish. From what I've gathered from your posts, this essay is unacceptable. Swifte was using the suffering of millions to propose the consumption of children for food in a cheeky manner. Does it really matter that he does this to bring reform to English-Irish relations?

Let me then ask this: am I allowed to mock, satirize, jab, etc, with nuclear war and its consequences? If we were to maintain your position, the answer is no. As I mentioned, nuclear war was devastating to the Japanese; therefore, in keeping with "we can't make fun of Nazis because it hurts the feelings of extant Jews" rule, such a joke would be unacceptable in your eyes. Yet Dr. Stangelove, which you just said satirized (a form of humor) nuclear war, is okay in your book.

You assert that making fun of Nazis in a pun thread denigrates the victims of the Holocaust. I must assume that, being the humanist or whatever you claim to be, this extends to all scenarios; if I were to start a pun thread about, idk, the gov't at the time which enforced the Trail of Tears, you'd be likewise offended about the suffering of Amerinds.

I can only conclude that from this stance that you find any situation where one makes light of violence and oppression of any peoples offensive. Okay, cool. So in this stance which you've continued to drag about for a while now, you would find something like the mockery of nuclear warfare reprehensible. I expect you now to condemn any movie, book, comic strip, etc. that uses humor for these type of situations. Just keep that in mind. These are the consequences of your posts.

I probably shouldn't address the rest of this, and it's my fault for bringing it up, but whatever-

TG, You can go start a WWII history thread if you want to, but I'll tell you right now that I know that I have more knowledge on this subject of Japanese-Asia relations than you do.

K. And this allows you to condone the killing of Japanese civilians?

Ok, you obviously can't think today.
1) That first offensive thread was locked, and I didn't have anything to do with it. Obviously someone cared.
2) A half a dozen people or more have voiced support for the banning of Nazi symbols and offensive jokes, including lack.
3) I give a shit
4) neoteny gives a shit
5) I've gotten messages about this thread from people who care, but don't want to be attacked by you unsympathetic jerks.
6) You're so butthurt you're desperately trying to claim that through good reasoning you've discovered that I must believe that Dr Strangelove offends all Japanese people. So obviously you're outraged about something.

1-5) Hence why I'm pointing out double standards.
6) Merely the means to demonstrate thus. I don't actually believe that the Japanese are or should be offended by Dr. Strangelove or any movie, story, whatever that mocks nuclear war.

Ok, so Godzilla offends the Japanese because it's about bombs? Just like Dr Strangelove?

Godzilla originated from common fears of the Japanese people about nuclear war, recurrences, and any effects that nuclear warfare might have. Some argue that Godzilla was a metaphor for the U.S. I used Godzilla to demonstrate the Japanese fear of nuclear attack.

-TG

edit: A perfect example of your double standard here, Juan. So, it's not okay to mock Nazis, but it's okay to speculate about which country could kill another more efficiently?

Let's try to make this go viral. You win the thread when you actually start a war.

Classy.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

TG, most of your points are valid, but not this: "Dropping the bomb on them was an act of kicking them while they were down to beat them into submission."

The Japanese were not stopping, not surrendering; were not acting like they were submitting at all, they were sending kamikaze (suicide bombers) in to do what damage they could before they died. The bomb was dropped to MAKE THEM STOP so we could focus elsewhere; and it worked.

False, but you can believe that if you want. Japan was on the verge of collapse due to the strain of the war. The only thing that kept them going was a handful of advisers and the Japanese sense of duty. Their situation was unsustainable. It wouldn't have lasted long.

-TG

[aage]

If you don't know if a joke is appropriate, just ask yourself if the person made a choice. If someone wakes up with bad hair, that's funny. If they wake up missing a kidney, that's not funny.

You laugh, you lose.
Seriously though Juan, to get back on topic; how many years do you think is long enough to stop saying "Dude, too soon"? It's been over sixty years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26VP5SY-dZw&t=1m5s
Before you ask:

Have you been reading my posts in this thread at all?

Mostly, nope.

See: Dr. Strangelove.

According to Juan this movie shouldn't be funny.

The parts concerning the actual bombing aren't. The way the President handles the conversation with the Russian PM is honestly the only funny thing that doesn't contain Peter Sellers.

In my opinion A Modest Proposal was hilarious, but you have to note that Swifte wasn't writing it out of spite for the Irish. Holocaust jokes sometimes are.

[Metsfanmax]

If you don't know if a joke is appropriate, just ask yourself if the person made a choice. If someone wakes up with bad hair, that's funny. If they wake up missing a kidney, that's not funny.

You laugh, you lose.

I think aage just won the thread.

Sorry, Juan.

[saxitoxin]

TG, most of your points are valid, but not this: "Dropping the bomb on them was an act of kicking them while they were down to beat them into submission."

The Japanese were not stopping, not surrendering; were not acting like they were submitting at all, they were sending kamikaze (suicide bombers) in to do what damage they could before they died. The bomb was dropped to MAKE THEM STOP so we could focus elsewhere; and it worked.

The atom bombing of Japan was a war crime. Truman should have been hanged.

"The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons. In being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." - U.S. Fleet Admiral William Leahy

[saxitoxin]

I think aage just won the thread.

Sorry, Juan.

Winning this thread is like winning a 10-car train derailment. When Juan decided to detour the train to Lunatic Junction we knew we were in trouble. Some of the passengers tried to storm the control room but Juan locked the door and then tried to jump the train over the Insanityville Bridge. We barely survived that one and aage grabbed a crow bar to try to break through the door but Juan, just then, saw BBS motoring along Lake Meh in his schooner and attempted to drive the train into the water to go after him.

Here's us ...



Here's BBS ...

[Funkyterrance]

Winning this thread is like winning a 10-car train derailment. When Juan decided to detour the train to Lunatic Junction we knew we were in trouble. Some of the passengers tried to storm the control room but Juan locked the door and then tried to jump the train over the Insanityville Bridge. We barely survived that one and aage grabbed a crow bar to try to break through the door but Juan, just then, saw BBS motoring along Lake Meh in his schooner and attempted to drive the train into the water to go after him.

Now THAT'S funny.

And yeah I was noticing how BBS seemed to have slipped between the cracks by the end of this. Nice wormage, bro.

[saxitoxin]

Winning this thread is like winning a 10-car train derailment. When Juan decided to detour the train to Lunatic Junction we knew we were in trouble. Some of the passengers tried to storm the control room but Juan locked the door and then tried to jump the train over the Insanityville Bridge. We barely survived that one and aage grabbed a crow bar to try to break through the door but Juan, just then, saw BBS motoring along Lake Meh in his schooner and attempted to drive the train into the water to go after him.

Now THAT'S funny.

And yeah I was noticing how BBS seemed to have slipped between the cracks by the end of this.

see: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=185115&start=75#p4047647

[Funkyterrance]

see: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=185115&start=75#p4047647

Yeah...
Probably true but is full disclosure so much to ask?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

In my opinion A Modest Proposal was hilarious, but you have to note that Swifte wasn't writing it out of spite for the Irish. Holocaust jokes sometimes are.

Doesn't matter- he's using the suffering of millions as a means to an end, a mere tool. Once you decide to use such suffering as a tool for your own agenda you reduce the emotional weight it carries.

-TG