Important Questions about Classic Movies

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Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:48 am

(1) Star Wars Trilogy

Background: So after seeing the prequel trilogy, we know that Vader, the Emperor, and a bunch of the other bad guys knew that Vader impregnated Padme. The surviving Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda) and the Organa family were there for the birth of Luke and Leia. We're not sure whether Vader and the Emperor knew that (a) Padme actually had the children and (b) Padme had twins. In any event, the Jedi + Organa brain trust decide to put Luke with his aunt and uncle on Tatooine to get him far away from the Emperor and Vader and put Kenobi there to keep watch. Then they decide to put Leia with the Organas, a powerful and influential political family, on Alderaan, but no Jedi to keep watch. And then Yoda goes off to a random spot to do whatever.

Questions:

(a) Why didn't Yoda go with Leia as her watcher/protector similar to Kenobi with Luke?
(b) When and how did Vader find out about Luke being his son? Episode IV in the Death Star trench? "The force is strong with this one, must be my son?" Episode V? If so, when?
(c) If Vader knew about Luke, how did he not know about Leia? He was in very close proximity to her in Episode IV on the Death Star?

I'll have more of these, mostly centered around Star Wars.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:27 am

a. The jedi were being hunted down and targeted. So Yoda hanging around Leia (who wasn't revealed to be Luke's sister in the original trilogy until later on) would have only put Leia into danger and make it suspicsious.

b. Vader knew Padme was pregnant and probably suspected she had given birth before dying, so when the most powerful force wielder next to Vader himself pops up out of nowhere, and about the right age, and considering the Empire's sphere of influence, not too hard to see why he knew.

c. Leia had not been trained in the Force like Luke was and had been kept in the dark much longer than Luke. Only a handful of people even knew her real identity, and she wasn't one of them until Luke told her. Plus, even in the outrigger novels that have come out since, Leia has never shown much in the way of using the Force.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby strike wolf on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:51 am

A. Tattooine is pretty desolate. It was easy for Obi Wan to hide out there and not attract attention. Alderaan was a more populated planet. It would have been difficult to keep Yoda out of sight if he went there.

B. There is the fact that he was a jedi actively going by the name Skywalker.

C. 'm not really sure. The only thing I can think of is that The Force within Luke was more active than it was in Leia and Darth Vader could more easily feel the connection
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby dario2099 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:21 pm

What I'd like to know is how Obi Wan was possibly able to defeat Anakin. By the end of E3, Anakin was probably stronger than both the emperor and Yoda. Maybe he wouldn't unleash his full power against Obi Wan, when Obi Wan had no problem with killing his padawan? Really makes you think twice when it comes to who's the good guys and who's the bad guys.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Star Wars is not a classic movie. The Classical Movie period ended with the invention of film.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby denominator on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:34 pm

I'm not going to delve into the first two because I don't know the movies well enough, but I have a suggested hypothesis for the third.

Vader had many opportunities to reveal that he was Luke's father before the iconic moment, but chose not to. In fact, revealing such information was an intended strategic play to lure him to the dark side. This suggests that Vader used the information with a goal in mind instead of just telling Luke. So I see it as entirely plausible that Vader also knew about Leia, but never had an opportunity to utilize that information to his advantage, so didn't bother revealing it to her.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby Anarkistsdream on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:09 pm

denominator wrote:I'm not going to delve into the first two because I don't know the movies well enough, but I have a suggested hypothesis for the third.

Vader had many opportunities to reveal that he was Luke's father before the iconic moment, but chose not to. In fact, revealing such information was an intended strategic play to lure him to the dark side. This suggests that Vader used the information with a goal in mind instead of just telling Luke. So I see it as entirely plausible that Vader also knew about Leia, but never had an opportunity to utilize that information to his advantage, so didn't bother revealing it to her.


There is no way he knew... Just look at the interaction between Vader and Leia at the beginning of Episode IV
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:54 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:a. The jedi were being hunted down and targeted. So Yoda hanging around Leia (who wasn't revealed to be Luke's sister in the original trilogy until later on) would have only put Leia into danger and make it suspicsious.


So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?

muy_thaiguy wrote:b. Vader knew Padme was pregnant and probably suspected she had given birth before dying, so when the most powerful force wielder next to Vader himself pops up out of nowhere, and about the right age, and considering the Empire's sphere of influence, not too hard to see why he knew.


I also just realized about 10 minutes ago that Luke's last name was Skywalker. Probably not a lot of Skywalker's running around the galaxy.

muy_thaiguy wrote:c. Leia had not been trained in the Force like Luke was and had been kept in the dark much longer than Luke. Only a handful of people even knew her real identity, and she wasn't one of them until Luke told her. Plus, even in the outrigger novels that have come out since, Leia has never shown much in the way of using the Force.


Makes sense. My only issue is that Vader ostensibly tortured her for hours/days and no Force powers manifested and he didn't figure anything else out.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby Anarkistsdream on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:18 pm

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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:19 pm

(d) Aren't the Rebels essentially terrorists? Their destroying the Death Star killed many, many civilians, and that counts as terrorism.

(e) Why do so many fans support terrorism--when it has fancy red logos and good-looking faces?

(f) Should the terrorists of today emulate the marketing strategy of the Star Wars Rebels? (shave beards, look handsome, allow more liberal dress for women, etc.)
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby strike wolf on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:24 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:a. The jedi were being hunted down and targeted. So Yoda hanging around Leia (who wasn't revealed to be Luke's sister in the original trilogy until later on) would have only put Leia into danger and make it suspicsious.


So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?


Dagobah wasn't exactly the safest place in the galaxy.

muy_thaiguy wrote:b. Vader knew Padme was pregnant and probably suspected she had given birth before dying, so when the most powerful force wielder next to Vader himself pops up out of nowhere, and about the right age, and considering the Empire's sphere of influence, not too hard to see why he knew.


I also just realized about 10 minutes ago that Luke's last name was Skywalker. Probably not a lot of Skywalker's running around the galaxy.

muy_thaiguy wrote:c. Leia had not been trained in the Force like Luke was and had been kept in the dark much longer than Luke. Only a handful of people even knew her real identity, and she wasn't one of them until Luke told her. Plus, even in the outrigger novels that have come out since, Leia has never shown much in the way of using the Force.


Makes sense. My only issue is that Vader ostensibly tortured her for hours/days and no Force powers manifested and he didn't figure anything else out.


I don't think Leia had the same innate force potential that Luke had due to her lack of protagonist power.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby patches70 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:02 pm

Yoda was on Dagobah for a specific reason. To learn how to interact with the people alive in the universe after he had died, like old Ben did. How to enter directly into the force, like Ben did when Vader "struck him down" in the light saber battle on the Death Star. Ben didn't get killed by Vader's light saber, he simply vanished just before the killing blow.

Ben's teacher was one of the first Jedi to learn how to do this (forget his name) and was actually talking to Yoda from beyond and Yoda went to Dagobah to learn the process. And to kind of hide out.

Dagobah is unique among planets in the Star Wars universe as the planet has become infused with the Living Force. A dark Jedi master was killed there a long time ago. That dark Jedi's energy fused with the planet and tainted it. Thus the reason for why the Cave of Evil exists (Where Luke Skywalker faced himself if you remember).

Few things survive there except for the native species. Expeditions there in the past always met in terrible failure. Yoda made his home near the Cave of Evil. The dark nature of the Dark Side and the power of the Cave of Evil was effective in masking Yoda's presence from the rest of the galaxy, which made it a perfect hiding place for the most powerful Light Side Jedi alive. And Dagobah itself due to it's nature naturally hides itself as well. Dagobah has been discovered, lost and rediscovered many times, despite attempts to log it's location for posterity. Information about the planet always seems to get lost.

The nature of the planet and it's origins of how it was infused with The Force also made it a good place to learn how to become One with the Force, as old Ben did right in front of Vader- "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine" if you remember his last words to Vader. And powerful indeed he became. Yoda himself became one with The Force in 4ABY, around the time of "Return of the Jedi". Yoda died the same year (became One with the Force actually, he simply faded away right in front of Luke) that Han Solo was finally freed from his carbonite prison. The Force was brought back into balance the same year (When Vader threw the Emperor to his death on the second Death Star).

Dagobah is very important and sacred place to the Jedi. Luke Skywalker as Jedi Master of the Order would sometimes send young Jedi's there to meditate. But those are other stories not yet told in the movies.


TGD wrote:So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?


Dagobah is very dangerous, not a good place for Leia to go.

Luke had actual family on Tatooine and Leia was adopted and raised on Alderaan by Bail Organa and raised as one of his own children. I don't think she was ever told about her real parents or family. For her own safety.

It was decided that the two siblings should grow up separate (so they both couldn't be taken at once if ever found out) and with loving, caring families, as to be what was best for them. It all worked out pretty well in the end I guess. Except Alderaan was eventually destroyed by the First Death Star, so that wasn't a very good outcome.....
Last edited by patches70 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:09 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:a. The jedi were being hunted down and targeted. So Yoda hanging around Leia (who wasn't revealed to be Luke's sister in the original trilogy until later on) would have only put Leia into danger and make it suspicsious.


So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?
Dagobah is not exctly safe. Plus, Leia ended up with family and Luke ended up with his step-relatives.

muy_thaiguy wrote:b. Vader knew Padme was pregnant and probably suspected she had given birth before dying, so when the most powerful force wielder next to Vader himself pops up out of nowhere, and about the right age, and considering the Empire's sphere of influence, not too hard to see why he knew.


I also just realized about 10 minutes ago that Luke's last name was Skywalker. Probably not a lot of Skywalker's running around the galaxy.
Very true.

muy_thaiguy wrote:c. Leia had not been trained in the Force like Luke was and had been kept in the dark much longer than Luke. Only a handful of people even knew her real identity, and she wasn't one of them until Luke told her. Plus, even in the outrigger novels that have come out since, Leia has never shown much in the way of using the Force.


Makes sense. My only issue is that Vader ostensibly tortured her for hours/days and no Force powers manifested and he didn't figure anything else out.
I don't think its a garuntee that the Force is genetically a given everytime.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Anarkistsdream wrote:Not to burst any bubbles or anything, but plot holes in Star Wars aren't exactly rare...

http://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-1 ... missed.php

http://movieplotholes.com/star-wars-a-n ... holes.html

http://geekdad.hotwired.com/forum/topic ... plot-holes


Shut up. If I wanted to google this, I would have googled it. Jerk.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby Anarkistsdream on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:59 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Anarkistsdream wrote:Not to burst any bubbles or anything, but plot holes in Star Wars aren't exactly rare...

http://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-1 ... missed.php

http://movieplotholes.com/star-wars-a-n ... holes.html

http://geekdad.hotwired.com/forum/topic ... plot-holes


Shut up. If I wanted to google this, I would have googled it. Jerk.


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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:39 pm

dario2099 wrote:What I'd like to know is how Obi Wan was possibly able to defeat Anakin. By the end of E3, Anakin was probably stronger than both the emperor and Yoda. Maybe he wouldn't unleash his full power against Obi Wan, when Obi Wan had no problem with killing his padawan? Really makes you think twice when it comes to who's the good guys and who's the bad guys.


Because Obi is far wiser, an area Annakin was severely lacking. I always saw Annakin as dominated by his emotions
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:44 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
c. Leia had not been trained in the Force like Luke was and had been kept in the dark much longer than Luke. Only a handful of people even knew her real identity, and she wasn't one of them until Luke told her. Plus, even in the outrigger novels that have come out since, Leia has never shown much in the way of using the Force.


She uses it for diplomacy. It always pisses me off too, cuz the books will always have to do a paragraph about how Leia is lazy and can't do much as a jedi
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:28 pm

Star Wars is a toilet head.
Or something.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:06 pm

Anarkistsdream wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Anarkistsdream wrote:Not to burst any bubbles or anything, but plot holes in Star Wars aren't exactly rare...

http://whatculture.com/film/star-wars-1 ... missed.php

http://movieplotholes.com/star-wars-a-n ... holes.html

http://geekdad.hotwired.com/forum/topic ... plot-holes


Shut up. If I wanted to google this, I would have googled it. Jerk.


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More importantly, I spent about an hour on the first site. It's got some good stuff.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:23 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:(d) Aren't the Rebels essentially terrorists? Their destroying the Death Star killed many, many civilians, and that counts as terrorism.

(e) Why do so many fans support terrorism--when it has fancy red logos and good-looking faces?

(f) Should the terrorists of today emulate the marketing strategy of the Star Wars Rebels? (shave beards, look handsome, allow more liberal dress for women, etc.)


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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:44 am

Although in response to your questions: everyone loves/feels sorry for an underdog, as long as they have no vested interest in the underdog losing.

See: Western society's idolisation of Nelson Mandela (terrorist with S Africa-specific goals and activity) versus its vilification of bin Laden (terrorist who wanted to get inside Westerners' public transportz).
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:59 am

mrswdk wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(d) Aren't the Rebels essentially terrorists? Their destroying the Death Star killed many, many civilians, and that counts as terrorism.

(e) Why do so many fans support terrorism--when it has fancy red logos and good-looking faces?

(f) Should the terrorists of today emulate the marketing strategy of the Star Wars Rebels? (shave beards, look handsome, allow more liberal dress for women, etc.)


If you hate freedom so much then why don't you move to France?



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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:13 am

patches70 wrote:Yoda was on Dagobah for a specific reason. To learn how to interact with the people alive in the universe after he had died, like old Ben did. How to enter directly into the force, like Ben did when Vader "struck him down" in the light saber battle on the Death Star. Ben didn't get killed by Vader's light saber, he simply vanished just before the killing blow.

Ben's teacher was one of the first Jedi to learn how to do this (forget his name) and was actually talking to Yoda from beyond and Yoda went to Dagobah to learn the process. And to kind of hide out.

Dagobah is unique among planets in the Star Wars universe as the planet has become infused with the Living Force. A dark Jedi master was killed there a long time ago. That dark Jedi's energy fused with the planet and tainted it. Thus the reason for why the Cave of Evil exists (Where Luke Skywalker faced himself if you remember).

Few things survive there except for the native species. Expeditions there in the past always met in terrible failure. Yoda made his home near the Cave of Evil. The dark nature of the Dark Side and the power of the Cave of Evil was effective in masking Yoda's presence from the rest of the galaxy, which made it a perfect hiding place for the most powerful Light Side Jedi alive. And Dagobah itself due to it's nature naturally hides itself as well. Dagobah has been discovered, lost and rediscovered many times, despite attempts to log it's location for posterity. Information about the planet always seems to get lost.

The nature of the planet and it's origins of how it was infused with The Force also made it a good place to learn how to become One with the Force, as old Ben did right in front of Vader- "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine" if you remember his last words to Vader. And powerful indeed he became. Yoda himself became one with The Force in 4ABY, around the time of "Return of the Jedi". Yoda died the same year (became One with the Force actually, he simply faded away right in front of Luke) that Han Solo was finally freed from his carbonite prison. The Force was brought back into balance the same year (When Vader threw the Emperor to his death on the second Death Star).

Dagobah is very important and sacred place to the Jedi. Luke Skywalker as Jedi Master of the Order would sometimes send young Jedi's there to meditate. But those are other stories not yet told in the movies.


TGD wrote:So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?


Dagobah is very dangerous, not a good place for Leia to go.

Luke had actual family on Tatooine and Leia was adopted and raised on Alderaan by Bail Organa and raised as one of his own children. I don't think she was ever told about her real parents or family. For her own safety.

It was decided that the two siblings should grow up separate (so they both couldn't be taken at once if ever found out) and with loving, caring families, as to be what was best for them. It all worked out pretty well in the end I guess. Except Alderaan was eventually destroyed by the First Death Star, so that wasn't a very good outcome.....


Sorry, I know you typed that whole thing, but note I said "Dagobah or another outer rim planet." I can find no logical reason why Child #1 is sent to a far away location with Jedi protection and Child #2 is sent to a royal family in the heart of the galaxy.

Sorry, more questions/issues:

(1) I seem to remember the reason behind Yoda's location (near the evil cave) although I can't remember if that was in the movies, companion novels, or later novels; that makes sense to me except that Kenobi didn't have to do the same thing. Is it because Kenobi wasn't as powerful?

(2) When Thrawn becomes a threat, isn't Luke setting up his Jedi academy on Yavin 4? I can't remember why he set it up there and not Dagobah (I thought Tatooine would have been a good spot as well). Anyway, it seems the evil cave would be a good teaching spot for young Jedi.

(3) I read this in one of AD's links so I can't take credit, but why would you put Luke with his family (Skywalkers) on the planet where his father is from (Tatooine) and let him retain his last name (Skywalker) if you're trying to hide him from the Emperor and Vader and the Empire itself. I cannot recall, but wasn't there an imperial presence on Tatooine prior to the droids landing on the planet in Episode IV?

Ultimately, what would you have done if you were the Organa family, Kenobi, and Yoda? You have two children, both potentially strong in the force (maybe as strong as Anakin), the mother is dead, the father is insane and works for your most hated enemy, and, by the way, the father and the most hated enemy are essentially psychic with a large and broadening power base in terms of ships and soldiers.
Last edited by thegreekdog on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Important Questions about Classic Movies

Postby dario2099 on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:38 am

thegreekdog wrote:
patches70 wrote:Yoda was on Dagobah for a specific reason. To learn how to interact with the people alive in the universe after he had died, like old Ben did. How to enter directly into the force, like Ben did when Vader "struck him down" in the light saber battle on the Death Star. Ben didn't get killed by Vader's light saber, he simply vanished just before the killing blow.

Ben's teacher was one of the first Jedi to learn how to do this (forget his name) and was actually talking to Yoda from beyond and Yoda went to Dagobah to learn the process. And to kind of hide out.

Dagobah is unique among planets in the Star Wars universe as the planet has become infused with the Living Force. A dark Jedi master was killed there a long time ago. That dark Jedi's energy fused with the planet and tainted it. Thus the reason for why the Cave of Evil exists (Where Luke Skywalker faced himself if you remember).

Few things survive there except for the native species. Expeditions there in the past always met in terrible failure. Yoda made his home near the Cave of Evil. The dark nature of the Dark Side and the power of the Cave of Evil was effective in masking Yoda's presence from the rest of the galaxy, which made it a perfect hiding place for the most powerful Light Side Jedi alive. And Dagobah itself due to it's nature naturally hides itself as well. Dagobah has been discovered, lost and rediscovered many times, despite attempts to log it's location for posterity. Information about the planet always seems to get lost.

The nature of the planet and it's origins of how it was infused with The Force also made it a good place to learn how to become One with the Force, as old Ben did right in front of Vader- "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine" if you remember his last words to Vader. And powerful indeed he became. Yoda himself became one with The Force in 4ABY, around the time of "Return of the Jedi". Yoda died the same year (became One with the Force actually, he simply faded away right in front of Luke) that Han Solo was finally freed from his carbonite prison. The Force was brought back into balance the same year (When Vader threw the Emperor to his death on the second Death Star).

Dagobah is very important and sacred place to the Jedi. Luke Skywalker as Jedi Master of the Order would sometimes send young Jedi's there to meditate. But those are other stories not yet told in the movies.


TGD wrote:So why not put Leia on Dagobah (or any other of the outer rim planets) like they did with Luke?


Dagobah is very dangerous, not a good place for Leia to go.

Luke had actual family on Tatooine and Leia was adopted and raised on Alderaan by Bail Organa and raised as one of his own children. I don't think she was ever told about her real parents or family. For her own safety.

It was decided that the two siblings should grow up separate (so they both couldn't be taken at once if ever found out) and with loving, caring families, as to be what was best for them. It all worked out pretty well in the end I guess. Except Alderaan was eventually destroyed by the First Death Star, so that wasn't a very good outcome.....


Sorry, I know you typed that whole thing, but note I said "Dagobah or another outer rim planet." I can find no logical reason why Child #1 is sent to a far away location with Jedi protection and Child #2 is sent to a royal family in the heart of the galaxy.


Luke and Leia are the children of the most powerful jedi ever. They're quite valuable. The Jedis and the royal family, who allied against the empire, decided that they'll each have one of them. They split the bounty. When the hildren grow up they'll be extremely useful in the war. Luke may be potentially as strong as his father, the Jedi took him and let the royal family have Leia.
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