Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

[Woodruff]

A bunch of men sitting and talking about how much and to what degree a women should be a slave to her own body. I'm so Liberal I don't even feel comfortable with this all-male panel here.

The idea that a male shouldn't have an opinion on the subject of abortion really is a stupid one, to be honest, Juan. I understand that it is a woman's body, but it also is a man's progeny. It's not like men just don't care about the fetus after conception.

[john9blue]

why are we americans even allowed to have an opinion about african genocides? it's their country, and they can do what they want with it! who are we to judge?

[PLAYER57832]

why are we americans even allowed to have an opinion about african genocides? it's their country, and they can do what they want with it! who are we to judge?

That you don't want to make a distinction between a less than 3 month fetus, without sensation, etc... and with barely a 50/50 chance of becoming human, with intentional genocide in Africa speaks volumes.

There IS room for debate, but distorting facts and saying "MY morals exceed yours" is NOT debating, it is bullying.

Other people have morals, religion and can think quite well. Who gives YOU the right to tell other people what to do, particularly when it IS their own body, their own health risk, their own potential child at risk here.

[tzor]

Roe V Wade didn't create Abortion. A Constitutional Amendment repealing it won't stop Abortion.

Well, yes and no (mind you I do not support a constitutional amendment per se). Prior to Roe V Wade, this was properly a state's issue. New York, for example legalized abortion a few years before the decision. Should the decision be overturned they would still have legal abortion.

But a constitutional amendment is another matter. Being ratified by the states into constitutional law it can do practically anything it wants to do. Remember that booze was a state's issue until prohibition was briefly put into constitutional law. So a lot depends on what the amendment actually says.

[tzor]

That you don't want to make a distinction between a less than 3 month fetus, without sensation, etc... and with barely a 50/50 chance of becoming human, with intentional genocide in Africa speaks volumes.

Are we having a Biden moment Player? Where did you get that number from?

Miscarriage rates after three weeks is only 10%, never mind 3 months. Most miscarriages occur before the women even knows they are pregnant.

The nervous system does develop around the 20th week, and research shows that the fetus can experience pain at this point, but this is well beyond 3 months.

And so we compare it to "intentional genocide." In many parts of the world, abortion is the prefered form of genocide, and also gendercide.

[john9blue]

why are we americans even allowed to have an opinion about african genocides? it's their country, and they can do what they want with it! who are we to judge?

That you don't want to make a distinction between a less than 3 month fetus, without sensation, etc... and with barely a 50/50 chance of becoming human, with intentional genocide in Africa speaks volumes.

There IS room for debate, but distorting facts and saying "MY morals exceed yours" is NOT debating, it is bullying.

Other people have morals, religion and can think quite well. Who gives YOU the right to tell other people what to do, particularly when it IS their own body, their own health risk, their own potential child at risk here.

let me get this straight... you think that nobody is allowed to push their morals upon anyone else?

you realize that's what the purpose of government is, right?

and yes, more people die from induced abortions than african genocides. i have no trouble comparing them.

[Symmetry]

Abortion isn't genocide. Sorry, but you can't equate them. Aside from the obvious stuff, saying that abortion is the same as genocide excuses actual genocide as being equivalent to abortion.

It's sad that Tzor and J9B see no difference between the systematic execution of a race of people and the morning after pill.

[john9blue]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide.

question for you sym: since you presumably don't like abortion, and find it to be evil (albeit the lesser of two evils), how many people would you be willing to kill per year if it meant abortion longer happened, and the millions of aborted babies were instead simply never conceived?

[Symmetry]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

[Night Strike]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

And that's what happens when one class of people are redefined as no longer being human. The exact same thing has happened throughout the world and history, yet for some reason it's completely ignored when it's in reference to an unborn child. There's no difference between claiming an unborn child is not a human and stating that people who have certain skin colors or religions are not actual humans.

[Symmetry]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

And that's what happens when one class of people are redefined as no longer being human. The exact same thing has happened throughout the world and history, yet for some reason it's completely ignored when it's in reference to an unborn child. There's no difference between claiming an unborn child is not a human and stating that people who have certain skin colors or religions are not actual humans.

I'll take that as no from you.

Hint: the Holocaust is genecide

Taking the morning after pill- not genecide.

[john9blue]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

i'm not going to play your idiotic game. you scour posts that you disagree with for one word that you feel isn't being used to your exact definition, and then make the entire debate about the meaning of that one word, because you know you aren't able to defend your initial argument (hence why i said mass homicide if not genocide, because you are predictable as f*ck).

https://www.google.com/search?q=define% ... =firefox-a

The deliberate killing of a large group of people

pro-lifers believe that abortion is killing and that fetuses are people. millions of induced abortions occur per year. therefore pro-lifers can reasonably believe that the abortion movement counts as genocide. now address my actual argument or shut the hell up. you are not "clever", you are irritating.

[F1fth]

The question people are really getting at is what makes a human human.

Is it simply the biological materials? (i.e. sperm and eggs)
Is it the coming together of those materials in a way which may yield life? (i.e. conception)
Is the sense of rationality and the ability to feel certain sensations such as pain? (i.e. a developed fetus)
Is it the actual experiencing of those sensations? (i.e. a born child)

Clearly, popular opinion has settled that it's somewhere between the middle two options. It's certainly no easy question to answer, and I don't appreciate those who take for granted that it isn't.

Also, to comment on the immediate discussion: John and Night Strike, I hope you realize there is a difference between mass homicide and genocide because there is a marked distinction between the two. That difference is the deliberate and systematic decision to completely exterminate an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group of people from the earth. If abortions were mandatory, then could could you argue that abortion is genocide.

[john9blue]

The question people are really getting at is what makes a human human.

Is it simply the biological materials? (i.e. sperm and eggs)
Is it the coming together of those materials in a way which may yield life? (i.e. conception)
Is the sense of rationality and the ability to feel certain sensations such as pain? (i.e. a developed fetus)
Is it the actual experiencing of those sensations? (i.e. a born child)

Clearly, popular opinion has settled that it's somewhere between the middle two options. It's certainly no easy question to answer, and I don't appreciate those who take for granted that it isn't.

Also, to comment on the immediate discussion: John and Night Strike, I hope you realize there is a difference between mass homicide and genocide because there is a marked distinction between the two. That difference is the deliberate and systematic decision to completely exterminate an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group of people from the earth. If abortions were mandatory, then could could you argue that abortion is genocide.

i'm done quibbling over a single word, because it doesn't make a difference to the argument.

what, in your opinion, makes murder wrong? why is it bad to kill another human?

[Symmetry]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

i'm not going to play your idiotic game. you scour posts that you disagree with for one word that you feel isn't being used to your exact definition, and then make the entire debate about the meaning of that one word, because you know you aren't able to defend your initial argument (hence why i said mass homicide if not genocide, because you are predictable as f*ck).

You get kind of pissy when you're wrong.

Genocide ain't a small accusation. I didn't scour your post- accusations of genocide were one of your main points. Indeed you went out of your way to defend your use of it.

You clearly don't understand what it means, but you use it anyway and get upset when I point out your nonsense.

[john9blue]

You get kind of pissy when you're wrong.

Genocide ain't a small accusation. I didn't scour your post- accusations of genocide were one of your main points. Indeed you went out of your way to defend your use of it.

You clearly don't understand what it means, but you use it anyway and get upset when I point out your nonsense.

way to edit out everything but the first paragraph. go back and read.

[Symmetry]

You get kind of pissy when you're wrong.

Genocide ain't a small accusation. I didn't scour your post- accusations of genocide were one of your main points. Indeed you went out of your way to defend your use of it.

You clearly don't understand what it means, but you use it anyway and get upset when I point out your nonsense.

way to edit out everything but the first paragraph. go back and read.

i read your defence, it was lame. You were lazy and wrong,

[rdsrds2120]

Darn words...and their meanings! I think life would be simpler if we all communicated with noises.

Grrah. Grrrruuuuuuunnnnngggggghhh!!!

Arguments about abortion are hard because people go into the argument assuming that their terms are already defined by themselves, and never seem to make sure that everyone's on the same page from the get go. john, defining terms is important when making an argument. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say to get anywhere.

-rd

[john9blue]

Darn words...and their meanings! I think life would be simpler if we all communicated with noises.

Grrah. Grrrruuuuuuunnnnngggggghhh!!!

Arguments about abortion are hard because people go into the argument assuming that their terms are already defined by themselves, and never seem to make sure that everyone's on the same page from the get go. john, defining terms is important when making an argument. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say to get anywhere.

-rd

i meant what i said, and i backed it up. symmetry is just whining because he doesn't want millions of dead fetuses to look like millions of dead jews. he's trying to distance himself from uncomfortable words because of the effect they have on the way he thinks.

[Symmetry]

Darn words...and their meanings! I think life would be simpler if we all communicated with noises.

Grrah. Grrrruuuuuuunnnnngggggghhh!!!

Arguments about abortion are hard because people go into the argument assuming that their terms are already defined by themselves, and never seem to make sure that everyone's on the same page from the get go. john, defining terms is important when making an argument. You have to say what you mean and mean what you say to get anywhere.

-rd

Meh- J9B was wrong, and he doubled down on being wrong.

He's throwing around the word "genocide" and getting upset when people call him out on it.

My criticizing his accusation of genocide was gentle. Be fair and see that he was equating folk who are in favour of the morning after pill with genocidal maniacs.

That's an accusation that deserves critcidm.

[rdsrds2120]

I know, which is why my overall message was that he should be more careful with words. I don't think he actually believes that people who take a morning after pill are genocidal. He and I may not see eye to eye on most issues, but I don't think he's that type of person.

-rd

[john9blue]

i never use words that i don't mean.

genocide isn't committed by just one person. many people who participate in a genocide don't even necessarily realize that what they are doing is extremely wrong. people can be convinced to do almost anything as long as they believe that they won't be personally held responsible. but genocide is genocide nonetheless. sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

[Symmetry]

i never use words that i don't mean.

genocide isn't committed by just one person. many people who participate in a genocide don't even necessarily realize that what they are doing is extremely wrong. people can be convinced to do almost anything as long as they believe that they won't be personally held responsible. but genocide is genocide nonetheless. sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

You don't have a clue about what genocide is, do you?

[Night Strike]

if one believes that abortion is murder, then millions of abortions per year qualifies as mass homicide if not genocide

Do you even understand what the word genocide means? You seem to throw it around as if it's something along the lines of killing a lot of people.

And that's what happens when one class of people are redefined as no longer being human. The exact same thing has happened throughout the world and history, yet for some reason it's completely ignored when it's in reference to an unborn child. There's no difference between claiming an unborn child is not a human and stating that people who have certain skin colors or religions are not actual humans.

I'll take that as no from you.

Hint: the Holocaust is genecide

Taking the morning after pill- not genecide.

I didn't know that was the only form of abortion.

[Symmetry]

What you don't know about abortion, NS, would be worthy of an essay.

Let's keep it simple and accept that it's not genocide.