Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:48 am

MeDeFe wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Exactly what interpretations are you referring to?

Your Interpretation. Jones said so quite clearly.


OK!

I base my interpretations on the very words that came out of the mouth of the Lord and the Apostles as recorded in the pages of the Holy Bible.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
-Revelation 20:5-6

"The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,...
Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,..."
-Matthaew 22:23-31

"And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
-Luke 14:14

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; (RETURN TO LIFE AGAIN) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
-John 5:28-29

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
-John 11:24

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? "
John 11:25

[Note:]
Obviously, the question here is an issue of life and death. It can't be both ways. When you are alive, you live and when you die, you're dead. Duh?

"Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead."
-Acts 4:2

"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection."
-Acts 17:18

"And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter]."
-Acts 17:32

" And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
-Acts 24:15


"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
-I Corinthians 15:12

"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
-Hebrews 6:2

It is most obvious to me that the preaching of the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead is an integral part of True Christianity! Why it has been replace with a false doctrine of heaven and hell when we die is a matter for the spiritually minded. In other words, "You wouldn't understand."
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:21 am

jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:51 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.


As stated previously and can be seen in the above comment, This teaching is from the Holy Bible. From the very mouth of the Lord in fact. This is the plain and simple teaching of the Word of God. This is not my own interpretation of the text but as they read, right there in black and white. Or how else would you interpret those verses that talk clearly about a resurrection? Several in fact!

That you have not met any "Christians" who teach or believe this doctrine of the Resurrection, only goes to show just how wide spread the deceptions of the enemy of God is. Just because they call themselves "Christian" Doesn't mean that they follow the Teachings of Christ!

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:..."
-Revelation 12:9

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
-I Corinthians 15:12
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:34 pm

My religious text is the only correct one, everyone else is wrong because the Bible said so!
My interpretation of my religious text is the only correct one, everyone else is wrong because the Bible said so!
The moral code I've derived from my interpretation of my religious text is the only correct one, everyone else is wrong because the Bible said so!
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby premio53 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:44 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.

Viceroy belongs to a sect which calls themselves "Jehovah Witnesses."

2 John 9 - "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
This is the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Jehovah Witnesses. A failure to be faithful to the fundamental, sound doctrines of the faith (a proper view of the person and work of Jesus Christ, love, obedience) marks a person as having never been born again (1 John 2:23). Below is a 20 minute video that explains clearly what the Jehovah Witnesses teach.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:49 pm

premio53 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.

Viceroy belongs to a sect which calls themselves "Jehovah Witnesses."

2 John 9 - "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
This is the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Jehovah Witnesses. A failure to be faithful to the fundamental, sound doctrines of the faith (a proper view of the person and work of Jesus Christ, love, obedience) marks a person as having never been born again (1 John 2:23). Below is a 20 minute video that explains clearly what the Jehovah Witnesses teach


Wrong Premio!

I am not a "Jehovah Witnesses."

Never was, Never will be. They also are part of the deceived masses, that clan known as Humanity or the whole world. :lol:
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby premio53 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:58 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
premio53 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.

Viceroy belongs to a sect which calls themselves "Jehovah Witnesses."

2 John 9 - "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
This is the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Jehovah Witnesses. A failure to be faithful to the fundamental, sound doctrines of the faith (a proper view of the person and work of Jesus Christ, love, obedience) marks a person as having never been born again (1 John 2:23). Below is a 20 minute video that explains clearly what the Jehovah Witnesses teach


Wrong Premio!

I am not a "Jehovah Witnesses."


Never was, Never will be. They also are part of the deceived masses, that clan known as Humanity or the whole world. :lol:
u
No matter what you call yourself, you are teaching the same damnable doctrine taught by the Jehovah Witness sect. Do you believe Jesus was God? Yes or no?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.


As stated previously and can be seen in the above comment, This teaching is from the Holy Bible. From the very mouth of the Lord in fact. This is the plain and simple teaching of the Word of God. This is not my own interpretation of the text but as they read, right there in black and white. Or how else would you interpret those verses that talk clearly about a resurrection? Several in fact!

That you have not met any "Christians" who teach or believe this doctrine of the Resurrection, only goes to show just how wide spread the deceptions of the enemy of God is. Just because they call themselves "Christian" Doesn't mean that they follow the Teachings of Christ!

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:..."
-Revelation 12:9

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
-I Corinthians 15:12


So it's just you then?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:05 pm

crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Actually, crispy, both you and BBS are way off on what the "common ground" would be. Cutting it down to the absolute, I would enumerate them thus:
1. There is a God, who is personal, not an impersonal force. He created us and the rest of the universe. (This would include everything from"Zap" to very distantly setting natural processes in motion. Any more specificity would go into disputed areas.)

2. We as human beings are created "in His image", meaning created to be like Him. At some point, each of us chooses to do what we know is wrong, known as "sin" which puts a separation between us and God.

3. Yeshua, Jesus of Nazareth, was/is that God in human flesh, referred to as the "Son of God". As such, his words and actions while here reflect and teach about the nature of God, and that reflection and teaching is one part of his purpose in coming here. The other part (I would like to add "the primary part", but some, though few if any, might disagree) of his purpose was to be crucified and die as a sacrifice in order to forgive our sin and take away the separation between us and God, allowing us to relate to Him.

4. The life of the believer should be characterized by "good works" or improved behavior. (I can't say any more about what constitutes "good works", or where they fit in. That's definitely in the "choose your room" department, but it's in there somewhere for everybody.)

From there I could extend the list with gradually decreasing commonality.

Maybe I could add:
4. God is responsible for us having the Bible as we know it in order to teach us about him. (Once again, that is pretty vague in order to include a wide diversity of views on just in what way and to what degree the Bible that we have is inspired.)


I'm going to rephrase your points slightly, partly for brevity, and partly for clarity in continuing the discussion.

1. God created everything.

2. God is personal. (by which I assume you mean God has a kind of personality? Or an ego? I'm not sure exactly what your definition of "personal" is in this point)

3. God created us in his image.

4. If we sin, we are making a choice to turn away from God, or reject him.

5. Jeshua, or Jesus, is God incarnate in human form.

6. Jesus was sent to teach us about God and his wishes for how we should live our lives.

7. Jesus was also sent to absolve our sins by being crucified.

8. Be excellent to each other (copyright Bill and Ted)

and then a maybe:

9. God inspired the Bible in order to teach us how we came to be and how to live our lives.

I think that's a fairly accurate assessment of your statements above, but if you disagree with any of them feel free to point out your objections of course.

Firstly, 1, 2, 4 and 8 (and 9 if you say "religious text" instead of "Bible") are not uniquely Christian. But lets ignore that for a moment.

Now, the responses:

1.Cannot be proven either true or false, but at the same time every a priori logical proof ever devised to attempt to provide an element of necessity to God's existence as the creator of everything has been found to have serious flaws. Either it's pleading a special exception (everything has to have a creator, except God of course he was just there), or it's merely filling a gap where in all honesty nobody can say they know anything (God of the gaps). There has never been the slightest shred of physical evidence that even comes close to proving that there is any sort of being outside of time and space who created everything we perceive as reality. In the absence of that evidence, is it more reasonable to believe in claims of illogical, supernatural beings, or to admit ignorance and simply say "I don't know"?


That’s why I never use those things. I will go into what I think are the real reasons one should believe in a post that I have almost finished (I’m debating whether to post it here or just start another thread). Remember that I was just answering your specific question. My intention was to define and limit those doctrines that are essential in order to prevent people rejecting the faith because of disagreement with something that is just the opinion of certain parties within it. I was not attempting to prove them or say that they were proven.

If I came to your back garden while you slept tonight and cut down a load of plants and planted a load of new ones, and took away your garden furniture and replaced it with a trampoline and then painted your grass blue, would your reaction be "God did it!" or would your reaction be to try and find a rational explanation for why your garden has been massively changed? If your immediate and totally honest reaction is not "God did it!" for these changes to your garden, then why would that be your reaction to reality? Why are you happy with a meaningless answer to the question "what caused everything" when you wouldn't be happy with that same answer to an infinitely more trivial matter? (And remember, God works in mysterious ways, if he decides that it's part of his plan for innocent newborn children to suffer with horrible diseases then trashing your garden could easily be part of his plan too...)


You have the usual stereotyped view of faith. After conversing with me this long, do you really think I just simplistically say “God did it” about things and don’t ponder or investigate the reasons? Belief that God is behind creation is not as simple as you seem to think. Among other things, there is the interplay between God’s action and the natural laws of cause and effect that he has set up, including what people choose to do. When something happens, if you believe in God, how much is it one and how much the other?

Talking about the origin of all things, whatever you choose to believe, it is mind-boggling and outside of our common experience. Either there was a time before anything existed, which is mind boggling: what would it be like for nothing to exist, or some things have existed eternally, which is contrary to our experience, or before some point there was no time. The idea that there is a personality behind it, only he is eternal and everything else was created by him, is really no more of a stretch.

2. As I said I'm a little confused here by your use of the word personal, so a proper response would have to wait until you can clarify that for me.


What I mean by that is that he is not an impersonal force like the Tao or the “oversoul” of Thoreauvian/Emersonian transcendentalism. He has intellect, will and emotion. And yes, you are correct later that it is in that sense that I mean we are made in his image.

3. I'm going to go with the loosest possible interpretation of this one (to fit the hallway analogy) and say that this means that our souls (to use the religious vernacular) are made in the image of his spirit, rather than it being a physical resemblance or anything like that. So spiritually, we are made in the image of something perfectly good and loving and forgiving. But we are spiritually imperfect, and we can be evil and hateful and vengeful. This is one of the core messages of Christianity, that we are all sinners, and that only through Jesus can we find salvation. So the only possible conclusions are that (a) this has to be thrown out as an incorrect argument, or (b) that God is also imperfect, and can be evil, and hateful, and vengeful, at which point the benefits of total spiritual abandonment to his whims seems more than a little ill-advised.


Well, first, I regret including the “made in his image” thing in this “short list”. It was sort of more “background info” for things said after, but not really necessary, and as you noted it opens up a can of worms with different interpretations, so it doesn’t really belong.

That said, what you said does not follow logically. A photograph or good painting of me is made in my image, but does not share all of my qualities.

4. So God has set out a bunch of rules for making the world a happy, loving place. Brilliant! But we have a choice of whether to follow those rules or not, and if we don't, then we have rejected God, and separated ourselves from him. Again I'm going to go with the loosest possible interpretation, as provided by Player (and which you seemed to agree with) - love thy neighbour and love God. Those two basic rules provide the framework for all the rest right? Except can you ever remember a time when you CHOSE to love something? Sure you can choose to outwardly treat someone / something with love, compassion and respect, but I have never known any feeling of love develop because I chose to feel it. If you are married then did you choose to love your wife, or did you uncontrollably fall in love with her? Did you choose to love chocolate ice cream and really not like pistachio (for example)? I have never seen any evidence that emotions are choices. How we process emotions and how outwardly we display them and act on them is a matter of choice, but the emotions themselves are things that happen to us, not choices we make. If you disbelieve this then think of the food you most hate eating, and make a concious decision to love it in the same way you love your most favourite food. Now go out and buy some and eat it, and honestly consider whether you making that concious decision to love it makes any real difference to your base feelings upon eating it. You may change your acceptance level of the fact you are eating it, but I can cast-iron guarantee you won't put the first bite into your mouth and experience the same emotion of "mmmmm...... that's goooooood" as you would have if it had been your favourite food.


Your confusion is in that there are different kinds of love. Hebrew and Greek each have several words for them. My “love” for chocolate is a self-interested love: it doesn’t do the chocolate any good; it gets consumed. The kind of love that God commands is indeed a choice.

Let me use your example of love for my wife. First I liked her, as I liked several other women. . At one point, after getting to know her well enough, I realized that she was “the one’. Now as a Christian, I was thinking in terms of marriage and “life-partner”, The “love” at that point was still not a choice, but it was also still self-interested. I wanted her for my purposes and desires, not just sex, although that was obviously an important part, but all of the other things I wanted in a wife: companionship, etc. Now that didn’t need to go away, it just wasn’t enough. When I committed myself in my own mind and heart to marrying her, I got an overwhelming desire to do whatever benefits her and to make her happy, whatever that took. That also was not really a choice, but was the result of one.

Most of the time, that does just fine, but over the course of 24 years, there are times when you make each other mad enough that even the “want to” isn’t there. Actually you don’t have to wait so long; it usually happens within the first year, sometimes on the honeymoon. That’s when the kind of love that holds a marriage together for the long haul has to come in. You grit your teeth, remember that you made a commitment to love, and that it is not all about you, and you speak kind words instead of angry ones and you forgive and ask forgiveness, and you pay for professional help if you need to. That kind of love is a choice.

For me, loving God takes into the account all of those types of love, though it may not happen in exactly the same way and the same order. He calls us to him as sheep, needing what he has for us, totally self-interested, but a kind of love. I choose to put him first, before other things and do what pleases him. That is another kind of love. As I walk with him, I get to know him better, and come to love him more.

So, what we have is two basic rules, that provide the framework for all the other rules, that we have no choice if we are able to follow them or not. And the punishment for not being able to follow them (because willingness isn't a factor, it's a base part of our nature that we have no control over) is eternal separation from God. In the words of the late, great Christopher Hitchens: "God creates us sick, and commands us to be well". If a country passed a law that said everyone had to stop growing at 6 feet tall would that be a fair rule? So how is it in any way a fair rule to force us to love something if we are unable to do so?


Meh. Hitchens also said that the premise of Christianity is “immoral” because it is based on the idea that Jesus took our sin and guilt on the cross, and people should bear the responsibility for their own actions. So he’s upset that God does blame us and that he doesn’t. Maybe it’s Hitchens and not God who is confused about in what sense we should and should not bear our own guilt.

We could get into the worn-out debate about how much “God creates us sick” since he gives us choices but he is omniscient and omnipotent (actually “omniscient” and “omnipotent’ aren’t in the Bible, they are Latinate theological terms that sum up what the Bible actually says on the subject, but what it actually says doesn’t give us all the semantic and philosophical problems that those two words do), but actually it is better put that “God finds us sick and says “Come to me and I will make you well.”

5. See (1). This is invalid unless you're first honest thought is "God trashed my garden"


The thing I like most about Players’ post was where she said, “What Christians have in common is, well, Christ.” You asked me what the “few basic tenets” were, and that has to be #1. Sure, the idea that Jesus is God incarnate is predicated on the existence of God. What’s the problem?

6. See (1) and (5)

7. See (1), (5) and (6). In addition to this, God, who is perfectly loving and forgiving, decided that he could not simply accept us for what we are (what he created us as), and instead that we must all pass some sort of "test". In order to set this test, he dragged himself down to Earth and had himself born in human form so that we could horribly mutilate, torture and kill him. Firstly, setting someone you love a test to see if they are worthy of you isn't love. Can you imagine setting your wife a test to tell if she really loves you? A truly loving relationship is also a trusting relationship, and no tests are required.

Sure I set her a test. I asked, “will you marry me?” I’m glad to be able to clear up this misunderstanding. It’s not a test, but a choice – an invitation to enter a relationship. Like I said above, he does accept us just as we are. Any virtues he asks of us he will give us or grow in us.

Secondly, a being that can create an entire universe cannot think of a better way to prove his existence to mankind than to have himself killed by us? He can make a universe lasting billions of years (so far), and containing trillions of trillions of atoms, but the only way he'll know if we've "chosen" to love him is this? It seems to me a very petty way to achieve something that could have been achieved with much less ambiguity in any one of a number of different ways.


The first problem is that you are speaking as if you know this for certain, when you really don’t have all the facts. The second is the misunderstanding I mentioned above. It’s not a test, it’s an invitation into relationship. A “God” who had everything and was willing to do all that for me? I’ll take that.

8. Good works and good behaviour isn't restricted to the life of the believer. This is not a uniquely Cristian, or even uniquely religious philosophy, and therefore while it is coincidentally part of Christian belief, it's more like part of the village the house is built in, rather than part of the hallway in the house.


I never said it was unique to Christianity. I was asked for the central beliefs, and this has to qualify. I especially wanted to include it to head off the objections that Christians think they are just forgiven and so they can be a dick to people and let people starve. It goes everywhere from Catholics who arguably believe you must do some things to be saved, to extreme Evangelicals who say that the change in life and behavior grows naturally as a result of being saved, but has no effect on it, to the extreme Calvinists who believe that everything is predestined, so the “saved” were destined to be saved and to do the good works and had no choice in either matter. But it’s in there somewhere for everybody, so it qualifies for my list.

This post is long enough without me ripping the divinity of the Bible to shreds


Go ahead and give it your best shot. They’ve been trying for hundreds of years. Another reason that it may not be as easy as you think is that I include such beliefs as those of the liberal Presbyterian theologians I studied with recently. They believe that the Bible “contains” the word of God rather than “is” the word of God. As I understand it, that means that God communicated certain truths to these individuals, and they wrote them down in works that also include their opinions, prejudices, guesses, fillers, apologetic exaggerations, etc. That would account for most or all of the apparent inconsistencies, cruelties etc that are usually used to discredit. I don’t happen to agree with this, and I have other explanations, but I would not say that those who believe thus are not Christians. (though I might have 10 years ago)

(or in other words I'm bored of this for now) but I suspect you've seen several reasons why this also is flawed, which is why you've put it into the optional category.


No, I just thought theoretically that someone could believe in what Jesus did, and just believe that the Bible was what some people decided to write to tell about it, not inspired except in a really stretched sense. I don’t actually know anybody who believes that, but I was trying to be careful in what I said was essential.

Seems from where I sit that your hallway has large holes in the walls and floor (unless you honestly do think "God did it" when your garden gets trashed, in which case the holes are still there but maybe they aren't quite as big as they otherwise would be)


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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:06 am

Pardon the double post (please read that one before this one if you haven’t noticed it was there), but I kind of promised this post in the last one. Besides, nobody has answered the other post yet, and it had slipped almost to page 2.

A little different perspective on the whole “God” thing

First, an analogy.

Let’s say that one evening, to get where you have to go in a reasonable time, you have to take a short cut through an old and very large graveyard. It’s late, maybe near midnight, and ragged clouds keep letting the moon peek out for a moment then disappear into darkness. It’s late enough in the year that the trees are bare and the branches look like bony hands clawing at you. A wind is gusting, making muffled howls and coming and going from different directions, making the trees, white papers, and various other unidentified objects move suddenly and unpredictably.

So you’re feeling a knot in your stomach and getting really jumpy, especially when something moves on the periphery of your vision. Then you say, “This is nuts. I am a 21st century man of reason and science, and there are no ghosts, zombies, or spooks.”

That’s what faith is like for me. It’s holding on to what I decided I believe during what I consider to be my saner moments, even when what I see and hear around me, and even what I feel inside is telling me different. It’s kind of like the word “faith” in the sense that it is used in the phrase “to keep faith” with someone, or to “be faithful”. It’s not blindly believing something contrary to facts; it’s just not being fickle.

What we have repeatedly demonstrated in our many debates on this subject is that logic, history, science, all these are inconclusive on the subject of g/God in general, and of the God of the Bible specifically. Sure, from time to time some young Christian fresh from his evangelistic Bible study will start a thread like “Logic dictates…”, and frequently the atheists will talk like “Christians must be ignorant to believe…”, but when pressed we both end up admitting that we can’t prove our position.

What I am saying is that we all actually make our decision whether or not to believe based on something other than reason. Once again, I am not saying “contrary to” reason, just “something else” since reason is inconclusive on the subject. Now the atheists here on the forum will be happy to agree that the Christians and other theists do that, but historically, they have insisted that their decision is still based on reason or logic, and I disagree. The decision not to believe is made on grounds other than reason just as much as the decision to believe is.

The assertion that non-belief is more logical than belief, as far as I can see is related to one or more of two principles: 1. The idea that “you can’t prove a negative”, and 2. The related concepts of “burden of proof” and “Occam’s Razor.”

First let’s deal with the idea that “you can’t prove a negative.” Who says? Actually, that statement is itself a negative, and therefore by its own admission, you can’t know for certain that it is true.

Also, in symbolic logic, if you prove A, you thereby disprove (not A), so if you disprove A, you prove (not A). Actually, proving a negative may be easier than proving a positive. All you have to do is prove the existence of a condition with which A is not compatible, and you have proved (not A).

Here is a kind of weird example. When I was a Kid, I was given for Christmas a puzzle/game called Soma, invented by Danish scientist/philosopher/poet, Piet Hein. Besides making a cube, people make different sculptures with the 7 irregular combinations of cubes.

In the Wicki article about Soma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_cube it mentions that it has been logically proven that the “T”-shaped piece can only go in one particular place to make the cube. This could be re-stated that no other place that it could go exists – a negative.

Hein’s son, Jotun proved that a particular theorized sculpture, called “The Basalt Rock” was impossible, by means of a pure-logic argument having something to do with alternating black and white cubes. Honestly, being just a kid at the time, I didn’t understand the proof, and I can’t find it on the internet, but here are some other proofs of things being impossible, by aficionados that mention Jotun’s. http://www.fam-bundgaard.dk/SOMA/NEWS/N001203.HTM , http://www.fam-bundgaard.dk/SOMA/NEWS/N981123.HTM

Now maybe you can find holes in these particular proofs, but the point is that they show the statement “You can’t prove a negative” to be highly suspect at best and at worst, clearly untrue.

So we move on to the ideas of “Burden of proof” and Occam’s razor. Neither one is really a dictate of logic, but both are ways to deal with uncertainty. They are biases for one kind of assumption over the other based on what kind of results you want to get in the event of that uncertainty.

For example, in the U.S. Court system, supposedly at least, the burden of proof is on the prosecution because it is preferable for many guilty people to be acquitted than for one innocent one to be punished. It is a bias for one kind of assumption, innocence, over the other, because of the kind of results desired, not a way of determining which assumption is more likely.

Occam’s razor, similarly, makes no pretentions of saying that the assumption that satisfies its requirements better is actually more likely or more logical, simply that it is more productive to proceed on, or further examine such an assumption. My son-in-law, a skeptic, tells me that Occam doesn’t work well for physics. He rattled off a list of things, like “dark matter” and one-dimensional “strings” that are the either the prevailing theories or actually proven, but do not conform to the razor at all, being fraught with complications and unanswered questions.

All that is leaving aside the question of whether “It just happened” satisfies the razor better than what I believe does.

So what? I’ve said before that I am not so delusional that I think I’m going to post something and suddenly the atheists on the forum are going to declare, “Oh now I see the light! I now believe in Jesus!” The best I really hope for is that some will say, as at least one already has, “OK it’s not proven either way, so this is what I choose to believe, and not believe.” In a case of exceptional honesty, the person I’m thinking of actually said something like, “I guess the difference is that you want to believe it and I don’t.”

That’s what I’m getting at. I’ve said before that to a large degree the intellect is the whore of the will, telling it what it wants to hear and performing the tricks that it requires. To a large degree, what makes perfect sense to you depends on your preconceptions. Whichever way you choose to believe, the facts fall into place to support it.

A great example is how some have posted as “proof” against the existence of the God of the Bible, pictures of starving children. I see that as proof that what it says in his word is true. He has commanded us to feed the poor and not to store up for ourselves treasures here on earth. He also said that the human race by and large has turned their backs on him and his words, including those who call themselves by his name, and as a result the world is in the hands of the evil one who seeks only to “steal, kill, and destroy”. Imagine if a significant number of us in the economic top 10% of the world started taking his words seriously. So for me a world filled with tragedies caused by selfishness, apathy and cruelty of people is far from proof that the God of the Bible doesn’t exist; it’s evidence that he does. It all depends on your point of view.

God makes his call to the whole person, intellect, will, emotions, desires, etc.; the intellect is not excluded, but it not a majority shareholder. When you hear his call and it starts to make sense to you that he is there, and is worthy of following, the debatable facts fall in place, if not right away, then with some study and examination.

This is a good segue into another issue. Many have mentioned that they couldn’t believe in the God of the Bible because there are many places in it where he seems cruel or unjust. (We could include history, current events, and our own lives, but for the sake of clarity I’ll stick with the Bible here) There are a number of such things that I have come to understand better, and they are actually examples of how wise and good he is. I’m not going to go into them specifically, because part of my point is that for every one of them, there are more that I don’t understand, and still seem cruel or unjust. So you could rightly ask me “Does that answer for this, or for that other case?” and I’d have to answer “No.”

I've come to the conclusion that I have seen His wisdom and goodness in enough things which I have come to understand, that I can trust Him on the ones that I don't. So it's faith, but not "blind faith". Every once in a while, as I study or ponder on them another one gets moved from the "don't understand" pile to the "understand" one. So no. it’s not just “ Oh well, It’s a mystery.”

Once again, God makes his call to the whole person, not just the intellect, and that call is the only thing that is really going to change the heart. My hope is only to use reason to remove stumbling blocks. In other words, when you hear God calling to you, you might say something like “That’s just an unreasonable feeling, or an attempt to not deal with the reality of my situation. I could never accept that because ‘X’.” My hope is to remove the ‘X’s and get people to acknowledge that the choice not to believe is also really just that – a choice based on what seems to make the most sense at the time. Then you are free if you will to change that choice and accept the call.

Let me pre-field this one: “Good. I feel I am called by Buddhism, or Thor, or the Spaghetti Monster.” My answer is the same as that of Paul Giamatti’s character to Edward Norton’s in The Illusionist (excellent movie btw. Highly recommend.) “Then we would be having a different sort of conversation.”

In other words, the question of whether there is “something” beyond what is perceived by the 5 senses, and explained by science, is one thing. Exactly who/what that is, is a related, but different question. One of my frustrations in these discussions has been an illogical sloshing back and forth between those things. I demonstrate (not “prove”) one, and they say “That doesn’t prove the other,” then I deal with the other, and they say that it doesn’t prove the first. Thus we go round in circles and never really deal with anything.

There’s a lot more I was going to say, but let me just get this posted, and deal with the other things as they come up.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby notyou2 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:39 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
premio53 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Slightly different track, Vice: your interpretation is different to any other Christian I've encountered (and I've talked to many). Is it your own? or are you a member of some church or sect which is new to me?


Thank you, Vice. How about the part I've now marked in red.

Viceroy belongs to a sect which calls themselves "Jehovah Witnesses."

2 John 9 - "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
This is the difference between orthodox Christianity and the Jehovah Witnesses. A failure to be faithful to the fundamental, sound doctrines of the faith (a proper view of the person and work of Jesus Christ, love, obedience) marks a person as having never been born again (1 John 2:23). Below is a 20 minute video that explains clearly what the Jehovah Witnesses teach


Wrong Premio!

I am not a "Jehovah Witnesses."

Never was, Never will be. They also are part of the deceived masses, that clan known as Humanity or the whole world. :lol:


How can someone that has never been exposed to any of the Abrahamic religions be a part of the "deceived masses"? A Hindu or Buddhist for example?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:42 pm

daddy1gringo just a quick note that I will be back to respond to your posts, just havent had time to do so in the last couple of days, bear with...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Tue May 07, 2013 5:37 am

crispybits wrote:daddy1gringo just a quick note that I will be back to respond to your posts, just havent had time to do so in the last couple of days, bear with...
I haven't forgotten.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue May 07, 2013 11:29 am

oops - fair play - will read through again and reply later on
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby NoSurvivors on Thu May 09, 2013 7:32 am

I was taught never to take part in religious arguments, simply because there are too many opinions; however this is an interesting thread.

Anything IS possible. Anything. Dinosaurs could repopulate the earth at exactly 6:48AM tomorrow EST. It is highly improbably, however not impossible.

Take into account that for instance, if you have a table in your living room. You turn around, you don't see the table. You do not know what that table does when you are not looking at it, to witness/prove that it doesn't do anything. In fact, you have a good idea of what it does due to when you look at it, it doesn't do anything. However, when you look away, the table could fly to the moon and back, being in the same position when you turn back around. Unlikely, but possible.

Like these examples, we do not know there is a God. However, through personal experience/family upbringing/beliefs, whatever the reason, some people believe that there is a god, based on circumstantial evidence that, when you apply things such as science, do not make much sense at all.

However on the same note, people who decide to go with the non-believing route, see things in a more "scientific" way.

Look at science. Take a good look at for example (my favorite) astronomy:

In astronomy; the creation of the universe, the galaxies, planets, moons, even the creation of evolution and such, are ALL based on circumstantial evidence, as religion is. We use OUR CREATIONS to judge how other things should be, based on past results or experiences as a species, and application of things we think we know.

Gravity, I believe is real. However, it is only a theory in a way that we think is . We cannot prove gravity is gravity all throughout the universe, we can only make predictions. "Educated" predictions. Gravity works on Earth, so it must work everywhere! Just like the earth was the center of the universe at one point, right?

The big bang, a theory. It is a good theory, with a lot of "scientific evidence", but really, is it scientific evidence? Look at it this way; we have no way of PROVING that the big bang happened, we have no way to prove it did not happen. We can guess and speculate all we want. It is exactly like God or whatever it is we want to argue (among different religions).

God might exist, there might be something bigger that watches us or that is the reason for our being, or there might not be! We will never know until we die, and even then we cannot tell others here on Earth if there is/isn't.

Therefore, I believe since there is no way to prove there is or isn't anything above, only our gut feelings and what we choose to believe, I believe we should just stop arguing, and baiting (as this is what this thread is, and don't try to tell me it isn't because "post any evidence of God here" is a title full of baiting), and just let people believe WHATEVER they want as a religion.

Religious people; stop shoving things down other people's throats.
Non religious people; stop bating and flaming the religious people who believe in something you might not.

So here is a challenge: post evidence god DOESN'T exist 100%. Go on. Try it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 09, 2013 11:22 am

Define "god."
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 09, 2013 11:30 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Define "god."


ImageImageImage

Well, Greek god.


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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 09, 2013 11:34 am

Oh, he exists. Obviously.


Next question.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu May 09, 2013 12:39 pm

NoSurvivors wrote:I believe we should just stop arguing, and baiting (as this is what this thread is, and don't try to tell me it isn't because "post any evidence of God here" is a title full of baiting),...


Very well put!
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There is a big difference between "Debating" and just "Baiting." But for some ignorant souls that lack understanding of basic principles about theory and facts, there isn't.

This is not a discussion threat but an ego trip for those who deem themselves superior in knowledge but in fact are ignorant of the logical truth. More people need to be aware of what this thread really is and of who the true trolls really are, especially when they pose as moderators themselves.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Thu May 09, 2013 1:21 pm

NoSurvivors wrote:I was taught never to take part in religious arguments, simply because there are too many opinions; however this is an interesting thread.

Anything IS possible. Anything. Dinosaurs could repopulate the earth at exactly 6:48AM tomorrow EST. It is highly improbably, however not impossible.

Take into account that for instance, if you have a table in your living room. You turn around, you don't see the table. You do not know what that table does when you are not looking at it, to witness/prove that it doesn't do anything. In fact, you have a good idea of what it does due to when you look at it, it doesn't do anything. However, when you look away, the table could fly to the moon and back, being in the same position when you turn back around. Unlikely, but possible.

Like these examples, we do not know there is a God. However, through personal experience/family upbringing/beliefs, whatever the reason, some people believe that there is a god, based on circumstantial evidence that, when you apply things such as science, do not make much sense at all.

However on the same note, people who decide to go with the non-believing route, see things in a more "scientific" way.

Look at science. Take a good look at for example (my favorite) astronomy:

In astronomy; the creation of the universe, the galaxies, planets, moons, even the creation of evolution and such, are ALL based on circumstantial evidence, as religion is. We use OUR CREATIONS to judge how other things should be, based on past results or experiences as a species, and application of things we think we know.

Gravity, I believe is real. However, it is only a theory in a way that we think is . We cannot prove gravity is gravity all throughout the universe, we can only make predictions. "Educated" predictions. Gravity works on Earth, so it must work everywhere! Just like the earth was the center of the universe at one point, right?

The big bang, a theory. It is a good theory, with a lot of "scientific evidence", but really, is it scientific evidence? Look at it this way; we have no way of PROVING that the big bang happened, we have no way to prove it did not happen. We can guess and speculate all we want. It is exactly like God or whatever it is we want to argue (among different religions).

God might exist, there might be something bigger that watches us or that is the reason for our being, or there might not be! We will never know until we die, and even then we cannot tell others here on Earth if there is/isn't.

Therefore, I believe since there is no way to prove there is or isn't anything above, only our gut feelings and what we choose to believe, I believe we should just stop arguing, and baiting (as this is what this thread is, and don't try to tell me it isn't because "post any evidence of God here" is a title full of baiting), and just let people believe WHATEVER they want as a religion.

Religious people; stop shoving things down other people's throats.
Non religious people; stop bating and flaming the religious people who believe in something you might not.

So here is a challenge: post evidence god DOESN'T exist 100%. Go on. Try it.


Although I do follow you a part of your opinion, I do not agree with all your statements. For instance you say that gravity is only a theory. I do not agree with this. The fact that it has been used in so many calculations so many times for over 300 years with only failing in a few cases, like the expansion of the universe, makes it a fact and not a theory. If it was only a theory and not a fact it would have never worked so well in so many calculations. What can be true though is that there are other forces who influence gravity.

I do have to admit however that the same does not go for the big bang theory. You are right that this is just a theory. You should however consider not just the existence of it's supporting evidence but the type of evidence. In that respect I think it is unfair to judge it the same way as you judge religions. Religions and science differ greatly in the types of delivered evidence. While religious evidence rests mostly on some written evidence and human experiences, science relies on logic and more importantly empirical evidence.

Another matter you state is that a divine existence can not be 100% proven or disproven. This although right in the general meaning of the word, is not entirely true. You can 100% disprove certain definitions of divine entities.

I'll give you an example. Let us suppose someone believes in the existence of a creator who is all powerfull, all knowing and all good, with good being defined here as wanting to prevent suffering. In this specific example there is a logical fallacy. If a God is all good, he should be willing to do something about all the suffering in the world. If he is all knowing, he should be aware of the all the suffering in the world. And if he is all powerfull he should be able to do something about the suffering. In other words in this example the god-entity should be using his power right now get rid of all the suffering. Yet we can see suffering all over the globe. In other words this definition of a divine creator is 100% wrong according to logic as at least one of it's features must be untrue.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu May 09, 2013 5:16 pm

That God permits suffering for a reason and a purpose in the final creation of man does not suggest that God is NOT "All Good." God created man but the creation is not completely created yet. Man is created to need a spiritual aspect that is not yet instilled in man. This is suggested in the garden of Eden by the tree of life (Genesis 3:24). That same tree is then found at the end of creation in Revelation 22:14 when man (all who desire so) will be finally completed and fully created.

That God permits evil and suffering is all a part of that plan to create man in his image and likeness. But God did not create the evil that all mankind suffers. It is simply a by product (created by men and evil forces) of the process of creation. Like the old saying goes you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. It's a part of the process in creating an omelet breakfast. Only there are bigger implications in creating a God like character then simple broken egg shells and God certainly did not break any. Man has to see for himself the rewards of a life that is contrary to God's way of doing things and then choose by seeing the results of his choices.

If there were no suffering then there would be no need to choose between suffering and ease. If a way of life leads to one and another way leads to the other then how could we choose which way to live unless we see the effects of both choices. It's not God who is even allowing the suffering to continue but mankind himself. From the desires of our hearts which by nature (because we lack spiritual completion in creation so far) produce sin and wars and all manner of "die-sease" and suffering. It is humanities stubborn refusal to live a way that produces peace and love that creates and maintains the suffering.

Everyone is looking to blame some one else and we are so quick to say, "If God were 'all good' then why does He allow suffering?" I would rather ask the question, "If we humans are basically 'good people,' then why does suffering exist in the first place?"
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Lootifer on Thu May 09, 2013 5:33 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
NoSurvivors wrote:I believe we should just stop arguing, and baiting (as this is what this thread is, and don't try to tell me it isn't because "post any evidence of God here" is a title full of baiting),...


Very well put!
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

There is a big difference between "Debating" and just "Baiting." But for some ignorant souls that lack understanding of basic principles about theory and facts, there isn't.

This is not a discussion threat but an ego trip for those who deem themselves superior in knowledge but in fact are ignorant of the logical truth. More people need to be aware of what this thread really is and of who the true trolls really are, especially when they pose as moderators themselves.

Irony overload!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby NoSurvivors on Thu May 09, 2013 5:59 pm

I asked my grandmother (who is extremely religious, however the sweetest old lady you'll ever meet), why god allows suffering.

Her response was this:

God did not create suffering. However he allowed it to happen.

When the first two people (Adam and eve as per the bible) were created and put in the garden of Eden, they were told that "you can eat any of the fruit in here but not one from a certain tree" (he told them what tree I just don't know what one it was lol). They were told that if temptation were to get the best of them, they would suffer the conveniences of disobeying their creator.

God let them have a choice. If we were all simply made with love of god programmed into us what is the point in making us in the first place? Earning love is a much better feeling than just having it. Also; if fit did not give us choice, what kind of god is that? Not a very fair one.

So yeah, long story short they ate from the tree and now we are exposed to evils as the consequence of them giving in to temptation against god. (I think that I show the story went, vice likely knows more than me about it).

I think that god (if he exusts) is all fair. He gave us choice and that is a pretty fair deal. I'm not gonna reveal anything about what I personally believe, but yeah just trying to give poor vice a break from the mean people that seem to lurk this thread..

Hats off to you man, sticking by what you believe.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby NoSurvivors on Thu May 09, 2013 6:02 pm

@ waauw,

I agree with you that it's strange if there is a god then why not help us.. But honestly we kinda made that mess ourselves didn't we? The suffering is manmade in my opinion.. Famine because of our system and how we chose to be. Some people suffer abd have no hope anymore. I think money rules the world, but that is a different topic.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 09, 2013 6:45 pm

If you can't define what it is you're trying to prove/disprove, then you can't advance the argument.
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