Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Viceroy63]

what is the nature of this living soul? We cannot find any physical evidence for it, and you say it is not spiritual, so is it purely conceptual? Is it something else?... Why is all religion and spirituality not totally meaningless garbage that's not worth wasting any time and effort on?

To you it may be meaningless garbage as something spiritual can not be understood by something physical unless something of a spiritual aspect of God was given to the physical. And we were all created with a spiritual aspect but that is not what we are. God breathed on man, into his lungs, the breath of life and man became a living soul. So by the Bible's own definition, not mine, we do not have a soul, We are a soul! A living soul.

Man is made up of the dirt of the ground and the breath of life, that is to say a spirit that God gave to us. Both of these things together is what makes up the Soul. Take one away and you only have either A Breath of life (spirit which is God's to begin with and so goes back to God when we do not have it), or dirt of the ground which returns back to the earth, but no living soul. Thus when we die there can be no eternity of hellish existence because that would attribute more to man than he is actually capably of. When we die, we simply die and rest in peace until the time of the resurrection of the dead.

I am simply trying to state the Bible facts. That so many religions of the world don't get it, is simply proof that "all roads do not lead to Rome." For there to be confusion even among Jesus Christ profession Christian, simply means that men have chosen a path that deviates from the truth. A path that does not lead to the source of all truth, God.

If they are confused in the matter then why should anything more be expected of you? Yet you would argue that "hell" is a reason why you do not believe in God? But you simply just do not know! And I would add can not prove it from the Bible without twisting the meaning of the Bible words like you do with the word "Fear."

On that Topic; we can not use the word Fear as what it means today because in 16th. century England the word meant something else and it was a badge of honor to say that "I fear my father" because it entails so many meanings. To say that, I am in Awe of my Father, Respect my Father, Obey my Father and Love my Father were all aspects of that word "Fear." So if you are going to show anything from the Bible you need to find the source of the word used and what it meant back then. Then use it's appropriate equivalent today.

As to the Living soul not being physical as you would like to believe, the Bible does not teach this concept at all.

Souls are alive:
"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
-Genesis 2:7

"For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul."
-Leviticus 17:11

"Say, I pray thee, thou [art] my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee."
-Genesis 12:13

Souls Die:
"He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; [but] he that despiseth his ways shall die."
-Proverbs 19:16

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
-Ezekiel 18:4

Souls are composed of Spirit and Flesh:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."
-Genesis 17:14

"Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."
-Job 7:11

Souls Eat:
"But the soul that eateth [of] the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings,..."
-Leviticus 7:20

And I could go on and on about Bible verses regarding the the word "soul" but I trust that I have made my point. No where in the Bible does it suggest that man is more than just a mortal living soul. And no where does it teaches that man continues to live on after death. Unless one twist's and warps the intended meaning of the Bible verses, that can not be shown in the Bible. These are however pagan teachings.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
-Ecclesiastes 12:7

[clangfield]

If religions were right, they wouldn't need to threaten you with hell/Hades etc etc for not believing in them.
If there is any chance of finding out what it's all about, it will only be when you die (possibly shortly before or thereafter). No point worrying about it until then.
Apatheism is the way forward (if you can be bothered to join, that is )

[jonesthecurl]

Aztec Priest: We're gonna tear out your still-beating heart to make sure the sun comes up.
Victim: The SUn will come up anyway!
Aztec Priest: OH, no. If we don't chop you up the world will go dark and we'll all die.
Victim: No it won't.
Aztec Priest: OK I won't do it, but...

How about I say I'm right when it happens. Until then I look like a fool and will be lost in your memory. But if I'm right. Aaagghh shit.

[crispybits]

Firstly Viceroy, for someone who holds context in such high regard that was an amazingly dishonest way of quoting someone. Thos two sentences were in entirely different parts of my post, within entirely different contexts, and the second was part of a much larger question rather than something that stands by itself. If your intention is to debate honestly then that does your credibility no good at all.

So to answer my first question, about what a soul is, your answer is "we are souls". But that doesn't answer the question. Is the soul a physical thing? Is it a spiritual thing? Is it a conceptual thing? What is it? If you make a positive claim that X is Y then to back up that claim you have to demonstrate knowledge about X and Y or it's completely meaningless. I could claim that the banana tree is part of the palm tree family (it's probably not, just making an example) but regardless of the truth or falsity of that statement if I am not able to define what a banana tree is, or how something fits within the set of palm trees, then the statement is meaningless as an explanation for anything. I might aswell say fwhibs are febnifes.

Also, you state that Jesus is confused about what God's plan is, but how is that even possible if Jesus IS God? How could God incarnate be confused about how his plan is going to work out? I've seen plenty of relativistic interpretations of biblical writings but to rule out Jesus as an unreliable source is pushing it further than I have ever seen anyone go before. If we can't believe what God says about himself, then what other source could ever hope to teach us about God?

Finally, you're the one who first quoted that we should fear God, I simply requoted you. If you don't mean that we should fear God as we understand that word, then you shouldn't use that word. Add into that the assertion that God knows everything that has or will ever happen, then he knows the meanings of words will change, and he would have either chosen to make himself more clear initially for all of the people he wants to save, or he would have reappeared at some point to re-word things so they can be understood clearly. If he has done neither of these, then he is knowingly misleading us, which is not an action of a perfectly loving God who wants us to have access to salvation.

PS Hell is just one of many reasons I have to hold no belief in God, even if there were no Heaven and no Hell (and by extension Jesus, and therefore God, is either a liar or just plain wrong) I would still have several other reasons, none of which have I ever seen any convincing argument to change and start believing in an extraordinary and unproven and unprovable claim made by anyone about anything. I could give you bible verses that contradict the ones you have used and you will deny them (sorry still chuckling about your "God was confused" defence) and claim your own cherry picks as truth, but as stated that kind of relativism means that you are no more objectively correct than I am, unless you can give me good reason why it's OK for you or your sources to pick out the bits that agree with you, but not OK for me to pick out the bits that agree with me.

[daddy1gringo]

crispy: I've been busy and just noticed your (rather long) post responding to mine. Right now I'm typing one point/click at a time on an on-screen keyboard because my daughter spilled soda on the r/w one. It would be a pain in the bootie to make an involved response this way, so I'll get back to you when I get a new one.

[crispybits]

No worries DG - I took long enough getting back to you so I can wait

[warmonger1981]

Did I just get crispy to admit to believing in a God? I believe in a God but not one that had been manipulated by humans or stories that are written. Not disclaiming all written religion I just find flaws in all religion. Religious leaders will use religion to coerce people into a certain mold. But with the way society as a whole is going I see no other way than a one world government with total control of all aspects of life either it be financial control or whatever. Maybe not in my lifetime but I feel it is inevitable. All in the name of progress and protection.

[premio53]

I am surprised how well crispybits lays out the truth of life after death not knowing his background. I don't know Viceroy's background either but suspect he is a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Viceroy: When we die, we simply die and rest in peace until the time of the resurrection of the dead.Viceroy:

The Bible is very clear about this subject.

Death and hell are different: Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Body and soul are different:1 Kings 17:20-22 - 17 And it came to pass after these things, [that] the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? 19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.7 8 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Body goes to the grave: Acts 2:31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.

Soul goes to hell: Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

There is no fire in the grave but there is fire in hell.

Viceroy: At least in the case of the Parable of "Lazarus and the Rich Man" it is just a "Parable!" And Parables are used to describe something other than what they seemingly represent.

There is no indication that it is a parable at all. It reminds me of the prophecy by Ezekiel (Eze 20:45-49) where he warns of Babylonia coming in and literally destroying the forest with fire; the people not wishing to believe such a thing could be true cried out, "Does he not speak in parables?" Jesus was not speaking in parables. Compare other scriptures where the Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved.


"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

Accept it or reject it. That is what the Bible teaches. Any Christian branch that teaches that good works will result in salvation instead of good works as a result of salvation which is by grace alone through faith alone has corrupted the teachings of the New Testament.

[crispybits]

Did I just get crispy to admit to believing in a God? I believe in a God but not one that had been manipulated by humans or stories that are written. Not disclaiming all written religion I just find flaws in all religion. Religious leaders will use religion to coerce people into a certain mold. But with the way society as a whole is going I see no other way than a one world government with total control of all aspects of life either it be financial control or whatever. Maybe not in my lifetime but I feel it is inevitable. All in the name of progress and protection.

Ummm, where did I admit to the existence of God. At best I can find this:

"if you're wrong and Islam / Judaism / other are the correct path to God, then I'm screwed if I chose to believe in the Christian myths"

That says nothing at all about whether God exists, just that IF you're wrong when claiming biblical support (mark of the beast) for a view that we're all going to hell, and IF Islam/Judaism/something else is right, and IF I take your suggestion as prophecy or I choose to believe the Christian myths, I'm screwed.

Edit - by the way I do have a kind of faith in a sort of higher power, but because it's faith, and I don't have evidence for it, I don't claim to know anything for sure and certainly not that anyone else should even think about believing the same things I do about it. My arguments in this thread and others are not preaching my viewpoint, but rather an attempt to undermine the foundations of religious belief that I regard as very harmful to societal well-being and advancement, be that Christianity (which given the forum population is pretty much all the time) or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or Taosim or whatever.

[clangfield]

Also interesting that people quote Ezekiel, which is the clearest evidence of all that the 'gods' of the time were either aliens or time-travellers. Think of jet-powered helicopters, read Ezekiel, and try to continue to believe that it's about a creator.

[premio53]

Also interesting that people quote Ezekiel, which is the clearest evidence of all that the 'gods' of the time were either aliens or time-travellers. Think of jet-powered helicopters, read Ezekiel, and try to continue to believe that it's about a creator.

We have more evidence of "flying saucers" than we do that Lincoln was assassinated. There is a spiritual realm.

[crispybits]

I am surprised how well crispybits lays out the truth of life after death not knowing his background.

You're surprised how well I can copy/paste from a book I was forced to study for a lot of my childhood and which holds no metaphysical truth to me? I'm not sure if I should feel insulted or complimented....

[tzor]

Concerning Viceroy, Peter writes:

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

[Viceroy63]

Like I said, you can twist the words of Jesus and the Bible to support a conclusion that is not there if you twist the intended meaning of it and take those verses out of context. I never said that Man is a spirit being and neither does the Bible. The Bible solely teaches that a spirit is something that we have not something that we are. We are a living soul composed of dirt of the earth and the breath of life, spirit. Both together make us up. Take one of them away and there is no longer a living soul. There is nothing.

Viceroy, while it's true that the bible doesn't specify that we have an immortal soul with the specificity that you state, it is true that the bible teaches that at the end times we will all be resurrected, and those who accepted God will be with him in a paradise (the Kingdom of Heaven) and some will be outcast (sent to Hell), and also that we have a spirit.

Matthew 26:41-46 (Jesus' own words):

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 23:39-43 (again Jesus' own words)

Either you have eternal life or you don't. Eternal punishment can not be eternal life. Eternal punishment must then be the opposite of the reward of Eternal Life, Eternal Death. And since there are no more resurrections planned for all of eternity, then the punishment of a Death Penalty, would be ETERNAL! It seems obvious to me without twisting it's meaning to conclude that Jesus said, that we have eternal life already inherent. We do not and Jesus never says that.

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

John 3:5-8 (that guy Jesus again)

Again; without twisting the intended meaning to mean anything else but what it is. Jesus did say to that theif next to Him on the cross, ON THAT VERY DAY, and Jesus will keep His promise that he made on that day. The problem comes when you consider who put that "," coma where it is. You see, in the original text there is no such coma. Now read it again with the coma properly position.

43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

What a difference the coma makes. Obviously if the promise was future tense then it could not have been fulfilled on that very day. But the promise was made on that very day to that very thief on that very cross.

I tell you this day Crispy; that if you take your time in reading that book, that you don't want to read, you will come to understand it better.

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Not everyone is born of the spirit and that is not what this verse is implying. We are all born of the flesh but we are not all born of the spirit. But spiritual rebirth is necessary in order to inherit eternal life. If we are not born of flesh in the first place the neither can we partake of spiritual rebirth. For this reason, the word of God had to be born of flesh that the Son of God may also partake of the spiritual rebirth and resurrection and be the first of many sons of God to inherit eternal life. But this is not something that is automatically a given to every human being just because we are born. It is not a birth right but rather something that we choose to do.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,,,,"
-John 1:12

So unless you subscribe to the same relativism I was asking Player about, which has the same problems as I asked her about (and now by extension ask you about), then Jesus himself (without any reference to anything outside of the four gospels) says that we are spiritual beings, and that eternal punishment or paradise awaits us after death and ressurection. I didn't even need to go into Revelations (New Testament) that goes into a load of details about the end times and confirms eternal suffering for those that did not believe, let alone any of the Old Testament stuff, to find that.

I wish you would bring up those verses so I can show how out of context they are taken to show an immortal soul. Remember that the Teachings of Jesus were generally hidden to the public at large and that is why he spoke in parables. So any parable to show this would not be about this and all of revelations have their symbols and meanings identified either in Revelations or the book of Daniel.

[BigBallinStalin]

I might aswell say fwhibs are febnifes.

That's disgusting.

[crispybits]

Viceroy why have you jumped backwards in the conversation? I've already said that if we assume the scripture is correct and you choose only parts of it then so can I. And your say-so that I have taken my bits out of context, without any better authority, is no better than my say-so that you have taken your bits out of context. So there's really no point in me wasting my time going through the bible finding the precise locations and wordings of the contradictory claims, because I already know what your response will be to all of them, and so do you.

And there is one of the big problems. Even basing my entire argument from a scripture that you believe is divinely inspired, if my conclusion does not agree with yours you will reject it without any proper authority (or at least none you have demonstrated so far), and worse than that you will decide that you will not change your thoughts about that scripture or the message behind it without even hearing my arguments. I don't claim this is true, but for all you know I've had a divinely inspired moment since my last post and I'm now a born again Christian and prophet, and I have received enlightenment direct from God in order to clarify his message and correct false interpretations of the scripture, and I have irrefutable, divinely inspired arguments why my context, whatever I go on to say that is, is the correct one. But you will never know if I am or not, because you have already assumed that everything I base on scripture is out of context. Without even hearing what I might say if this were to be true.

So I'll ask you the same thing I asked premio and he dodged and tap danced around, and maybe you'll be slightly better at understanding basic concepts like answering a direct, simple and honest question. (Edit - I do have some doubt about this as you went back 3 posts to dodge the question about what a living soul in your assertion is by the way)

Do you care whether or not what you believe is true? If you do care, how do you know that your current set of beliefs is true?

PS - If you quote this the bold line above is the only bit that needs to be carried forward, because the other bit of the conversation is irrelevant. You will believe I'm wrong, and I'll believe that you're cherry-picking the things that agree with you, and neither of us are likely to budge from that. If you want the last word on that particular line of dialogue then go ahead and have it, but I'm done with describing how everything you just said in your last post is a massive, closed-minded fallacy.

Edit 2 - I can't resist but throwing a little bit more scripture in though, just for you. 1 Peter 3:15 (partial): "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

[crispybits]

I might aswell say fwhibs are febnifes.

That's disgusting.

Sorry, I'll try and control my temper and not use such foul language next time...

[jonesthecurl]

I might aswell say fwhibs are febnifes.

That's disgusting.

fwhibist,

[crispybits]

I might aswell say fwhibs are febnifes.

That's disgusting.

fwhibist,

Hey don't you start on fwhibists! Don't you know the great God Fwhib sent himself to Earth and sacrificed himself to himself to create a loophole in a set of rules he wrote in order that he would be able to have us go and live with him in Febnife, a glorious place where all of our desires are fulfilled and nobody ever needs fear fnarkles ever again! Heathen!

[jonesthecurl]

fnarkle-head.

[crispybits]

Oh you're so heading straight to Fojnal to burn in eternal vats of overcooked school dinner meatloaf and custard! So says the might Fwhib!

[clangfield]

Also interesting that people quote Ezekiel, which is the clearest evidence of all that the 'gods' of the time were either aliens or time-travellers. Think of jet-powered helicopters, read Ezekiel, and try to continue to believe that it's about a creator.

We have more evidence of "flying saucers" than we do that Lincoln was assassinated. There is a spiritual realm.

Are you saying that Lincoln was a suicide?

[jonesthecurl]

Oh you're so heading straight to Fojnal to burn in eternal vats of overcooked school dinner meatloaf and custard! So says the might Fwhib!

Actually, scholars now believe that "Fojnal" is a clerical error and should actually read "Foky'all", which translated into the modern vernacular is "The Fwhib with this, I'm going down the pub".

[crispybits]

You're not viewing this in the correct context - Fojnal, or Foky'all, doesn't actually mean what you think it means, it's actually a command to dress as a pirate and shake your booty

[jonesthecurl]

Arrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!