Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:09 pm

tzor wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:God is not bound by laws of physics. God is outside of time.space and material.


While I agree with the second point I have to wonder about the first point. If God has made the laws of Physics how can God then violate the laws that He has made? Would that mean that God has gone against His own nature?

God did not "make" the "laws of physics". The laws are not actually laws in that frame.. they are not "does and do not's". They are explanations that human beings have found and that, so far, we have found to be unbreakable within the systems we can access to date.

Scientists would acknowledge they may not apply in other universes at all.. never mind to God, in whatever form God might exist.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:42 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:God did not "make" the "laws of physics". The laws are not actually laws in that frame.. they are not "does and do not's". They are explanations that human beings have found and that, so far, we have found to be unbreakable within the systems we can access to date.


I think we have different ideas on what the "laws of physics" are. There are fundamental "laws" (perhaps relationships that can be summarized as equations might be more appropriate) that govern the complexity of interactions that take place in the space time universe. We have only a faint grasp of what those laws are, but they are there never the less.

Mind you, whether or not God "made" these laws, set those parameters, fine tuned the major and minor dimensions is a whole other issue that is transfinitely beyond us at the moment.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:08 am

Also worth remembering is that we cannot know if this is the only universe. There could conceivaly be as many different universes as there are atoms in this universe, all with different parameters and rules and relationships between different bits and pieces.

There could be many where life cannot exist because those rules are set such a way that complex structures cannot form, there may be other universes where just one constant is different (say, the gravitational force) and that could lead to very different conditions but where forms of life are still possible, but that would look very different to those we have in this universe.

It's all totally unknowable, and without that knowledge it's foolhardy to declare firm beliefs on anything other than those things which we can directly or indirectly witness. We can all have opinions based on what our best guesses are, but to try and impose those opinions on others or to claim any sort of priveleged knowledge based on them is what gets met with resistance.

Even from a scientific standpoint, to say we understand the universe would be a bit like standing ankle deep in the surf on the north east coast of Australia with a telescope and a sonar machine and whatever other equipment you can imagine, and declaring that we understand the entire Pacific Ocean based on the measurements we can take from that beach in under a minute. Which is why science always says "our best understanding with the information we have is....." (often unspoken but the subtext is always there)
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Postby Lionz on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:21 am

How about address moon stuff if you want, but what in general isn't based on circular reasoning and suggests that a) there is universal common descent as opposed to a creation of separate kinds of creatures that were created to bring forth variety after their kinds and b) the earth came to be created from natural processes slowly over billions of years without any intelligent influence as opposed to being the result of an intelligent Being creating it out of nothing?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:03 pm

crispybits wrote:Also worth remembering is that we cannot know if this is the only universe. There could conceivaly be as many different universes as there are atoms in this universe, all with different parameters and rules and relationships between different bits and pieces.


Actually, we might be able. Interactions between universes in the multiverse had been posulated at one point (and I haven't kept up with astrphysics in the last few years) for the variations in the acceleration of the universe over time from the original big bang models. The only thing we definitely cannot know is what we definitely cannot observe.
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Re:

Postby tzor on Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:12 pm

Lionz wrote:How about address moon stuff if you want, but what in general isn't based on circular reasoning and suggests that a) there is universal common descent as opposed to a creation of separate kinds of creatures that were created to bring forth variety after their kinds and b) the earth came to be created from natural processes slowly over billions of years without any intelligent influence as opposed to being the result of an intelligent Being creating it out of nothing?


Not that I want to nit pick, but you do realize that option b isn't Biblical. :twisted:

Seriously, there is nothing in the first chapter of Genesis that suggests Ex Nilho.

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters


* [1:2] This verse is parenthetical, describing in three phases the pre-creation state symbolized by the chaos out of which God brings order: “earth,” hidden beneath the encompassing cosmic waters, could not be seen, and thus had no “form”; there was only darkness; turbulent wind swept over the waters. Commencing with the last-named elements (darkness and water), vv. 3–10 describe the rearrangement of this chaos: light is made (first day) and the water is divided into water above and water below the earth so that the earth appears and is no longer “without outline.” The abyss: the primordial ocean according to the ancient Semitic cosmogony. After God’s creative activity, part of this vast body forms the salt-water seas (vv. 9–10); part of it is the fresh water under the earth (Ps 33:7; Ez 31:4), which wells forth on the earth as springs and fountains (Gn 7:11; 8:2; Prv 3:20). Part of it, “the upper water” (Ps 148:4; Dn 3:60), is held up by the dome of the sky (vv. 6–7), from which rain descends on the earth (Gn 7:11; 2 Kgs 7:2, 19; Ps 104:13). A mighty wind: literally, “spirit or breath [ruah] of God”; cf. Gn 8:1.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oVo on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:18 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

Every breath you take.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:04 pm

oVo wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

Every breath you take.


Are you quoting Sting?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:41 pm

ill be watching you.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:45 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:ill be watching you.


You're not the Police.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:30 am

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BMO
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby CreepersWiener on Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:24 am

rdsrds2120 wrote:Image

BMO


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Re:

Postby crispybits on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:04 am

Lionz wrote:How about address moon stuff if you want, but what in general isn't based on circular reasoning and suggests that a) there is universal common descent as opposed to a creation of separate kinds of creatures that were created to bring forth variety after their kinds and b) the earth came to be created from natural processes slowly over billions of years without any intelligent influence as opposed to being the result of an intelligent Being creating it out of nothing?


Right....

So you agree that we can deal with 1 argument at a time, and then on the very first argument I pick (and remember I gave you the chance to take your pick instead) you fail to engage at all and go back to vague stuff about circular reasoning.

Have fun with your fairy tales - I can't be bothered trying to hold a discussion with you any more.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:05 am

tzor wrote:
crispybits wrote:Also worth remembering is that we cannot know if this is the only universe. There could conceivaly be as many different universes as there are atoms in this universe, all with different parameters and rules and relationships between different bits and pieces.


Actually, we might be able. Interactions between universes in the multiverse had been posulated at one point (and I haven't kept up with astrphysics in the last few years) for the variations in the acceleration of the universe over time from the original big bang models. The only thing we definitely cannot know is what we definitely cannot observe.


I'm similarly out of date with the cutting edge stuff but I remember something about gravity leaking between universes. In our lifetimes I don't think we're going to find anything out about this extended multiverse though.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

The universe is all that exists, and the multiverse theory only covers four possible...well, I'll let you do your own research. I'm not explaining it. Hint: Family Guy got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_theory
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby CreepersWiener on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:10 pm

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I think I'm getting closer!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby lt.Futt on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:26 pm

Have faith in God is the only that matters. It's a general misunderstanding that you can prove God's existence. No point. It's a subjective faith. That's all that matters for those who have the faith. They do not need to prove God's existence. They have faith still.

Noone can prove God's existence. You may argue for and against. No science can prove God's existence. No point. Subjective faith is all that matters. If you have subjective faith, God do exist. If not, God doesn't. All that matters.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:01 pm

Well there is the established fact that no code is a naturally occurring happenstance. No code ever just happens by luck. All codes require an intelligence and designer or creator for it. When you consider basic language that we are taught at school growing up, we all agree to this code. It did not just happen and so some one must have started it and passed it down and they taught it to others and passed it down until we get to our modern language now.

This being the case then how do you explain our very own DNA code?

The very blueprint for how to make a human being encoded in our DNA Sequence and in all life and species of animals on the planet. And this just happens by accident?

I don't think so and so there in lies the proof of God as intelligent designer and Creator of all life.

Again; No Code ever happens by accident.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:38 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Well there is the established fact that no code is a naturally occurring happenstance [citation needed]
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:36 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Well there is the established fact that no code is a naturally occurring happenstance. No code ever just happens by luck. All codes require an intelligence and designer or creator for it.


Actually its not really an extablished fact. On the other hand, I would not suggest that luck had anything to do with it. The evolution of DNA to what we have in our bodies took an extreemely long time to take place. One of the interesting things about DNA is that it is designed to recreate itself and to adapt to changing situations. These situations over the course of this very long time went from a single cell, to a single cell with a nucleus to protect it from a growing oxygen rich environment, to multiple cells to plants, to animals, to us.

We even got to make friends along the way (Hello MDNA).

DNA itself in the way it is designed to adapt and reproduce has an intelligence of sorts; enough for it to adapt from single cell to us over time.

God does not have to "design" the complexity of DNA any more than he "designs" the thoughts of a five year old.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:53 pm

tzor wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Well there is the established fact that no code is a naturally occurring happenstance. No code ever just happens by luck. All codes require an intelligence and designer or creator for it.


Actually its not really an extablished fact. On the other hand, I would not suggest that luck had anything to do with it. The evolution of DNA to what we have in our bodies took an extreemely long time to take place. One of the interesting things about DNA is that it is designed to recreate itself and to adapt to changing situations. These situations over the course of this very long time went from a single cell, to a single cell with a nucleus to protect it from a growing oxygen rich environment, to multiple cells to plants, to animals, to us.

We even got to make friends along the way (Hello MDNA).

DNA itself in the way it is designed to adapt and reproduce has an intelligence of sorts; enough for it to adapt from single cell to us over time.

God does not have to "design" the complexity of DNA any more than he "designs" the thoughts of a five year old.


Twice you used the word "Designed."

So who designed it?

Maybe the words "Established fact" is the wrong use for the intended meaning. I am sure that given time I can find a quote for that. But in the meantime it is generally accepted as common knowledge that no code can come together by accident no matter how many millions of years you give it.

Mutations do occur within the design of the DNA but that code that spells out Life, had to be written. This is where many lose track from mutations to evolution.

Oh, I found something! I don't know if you can see the Youtube so I copied and pasted the Link below the Youtube as well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhvxFRNELU

[YouTube]TwRp6Yto&NR[/YouTube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... p6Yto&NR=1
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:31 am

Viceroy63 well said. That video is all that was needed. If anyone can refute that I would love to see it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:45 am

Viceroy63 wrote:But in the meantime it is generally accepted as common knowledge that no code can come together by accident no matter how many millions of years you give it.


I'm mystified by this comment; who is it, exactly, that accepts this? There is not really any doubt in mainstream science that evolution of the genetic code to where we are today can (and did) indeed occur over billions of years.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:40 am

At what point was modern American society designed? Did the pilgrims on the Mayflower or whatever decide how today's America would look and work? Did George Washington sketch out the blueprint for every factory, road, railway, shop and office? Is Obama responsible, as President, for personally deciding who is employed by which companies and exactly what salary and benefits everyone should be paid, what houses they should live in, what cars they should drive, what they should eat for dinner, etc etc?

Modern American society is a hugely complicated system, with very very many interdependent factors and parts that wouldn't work without other parts, much like a single organic cell. But there was no overall designer. There was no one person who said "this is how it's all going to be". There were very many independent agents all working towards their own plans and designs, and they produced, between them all, the current complicated and interdependent system of society.

Therefore your argument fails.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby puppydog85 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:06 am

crispybits wrote:At what point was modern American society designed? Did the pilgrims on the Mayflower or whatever decide how today's America would look and work? Did George Washington sketch out the blueprint for every factory, road, railway, shop and office? Is Obama responsible, as President, for personally deciding who is employed by which companies and exactly what salary and benefits everyone should be paid, what houses they should live in, what cars they should drive, what they should eat for dinner, etc etc?

Modern American society is a hugely complicated system, with very very many interdependent factors and parts that wouldn't work without other parts, much like a single organic cell. But there was no overall designer. There was no one person who said "this is how it's all going to be". There were very many independent agents all working towards their own plans and designs, and they produced, between them all, the current complicated and interdependent system of society.

Therefore your argument fails.


Well, I am not a fan of the watchmaker argument (I don't think it follows) but I should point out crispy, that most Christians would say that there is a designer for the workings of the world. The analogy is begging the question, depending on your base assumptions you will either presuppose a designer/no designer.
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