Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:47 pm

crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:55 pm

oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.
Last edited by AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:01 pm

crispybits wrote:God might know everything about the natural world, but that knowledge is supernatural. That's the entire point. If a natural being knew then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not talking about something being naturally known. If the knowledge of the natural world is outside of the natural world and doesn't have influence on the natural world, then it doesn't cause a paradox in natural laws in the way you describe.

Premise: A natural paradox happens when a natural thing breaks a natural law
Premise: A supernatural thing is not a natural thing
Conclusion: Supernatural things cannot cause natural paradoxes


I'm sorry, is your argument that God cannot cause a natural paradox now?

You are suggesting he is omniscient, and presumably omnipotent, but cannot cause a natural paradox, and you don't find that in any way ridiculous?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:56 am

AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:15 am

oss spy wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.


The alleged deity,if it exists,does so outside the natural world,once you believe in this fantasy world all bets are off,all our fine logic meaningless.This is why theists are so hard to argue with..
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:19 am

Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:28 am

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


It's the angle they've used,among others,for a long time.'His ways are not our ways".Checkmate silly atheists.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:07 am

crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)

That's a very steep claim you're making. Given the nature of logic, the burden of argumentation is squarely on your shoulders there. You'd essentially have to show that there's no such thing as a necessary truth, not even in tautologies. Managing that would cement your place in history as one of the greatest thinkers of all time.

To answer your question of what logic is, Wikipedia is actually not a bad place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possible_World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:33 am

I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:51 am

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holy-Miracle- ... vi-content

(I'll come back to the logic point when I have more time after work)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:09 am

Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:22 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:51 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)

That's a very steep claim you're making. Given the nature of logic, the burden of argumentation is squarely on your shoulders there. You'd essentially have to show that there's no such thing as a necessary truth, not even in tautologies. Managing that would cement your place in history as one of the greatest thinkers of all time.

To answer your question of what logic is, Wikipedia is actually not a bad place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possible_World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth


OK lets give this a stab, and bear with me because I'm thinkng as I type and I'm not even sure I have the language necessary to properly define the answer yet.

Logic in every place I've looked for a definition is, roughly speaking, a system of reasoning that allows us to better predict objective reality by identifying and highlighting unsound arguments. It is not any sort of measure of objective truth in and of itself. It simply works by saying that "in a logically sound argument if the premises are true the conclusion must be true".

It can also play tricks on us. Many logical paradoxes have been pointed out which mean that technically sound arguments with true premises do not lead to a true conslusion. But we don't view these as being indicative of objective reality containing natural paradoxes, we simply view these as either having flawed premises or flawed reasoning.

Therefore the truth value of any logical statement is not based on it's soundness or it's unsoundness (unsound arguments can also sometimes provide true conclusions), but on the reality it is describing.

To argue that because something is logically sound it must also be objectively true, or to turn it around to argue that if something is logically unsound it is objectively false, you first have to find a way of linking the soundness with the truth. And logic itself doesn't claim that sort of power. Not one logician, in the entire history of mankind, will look at you with a straight face and tell you that a logically sound argument is always true.

Now, necessary truths are things that are always true no matter how you conceive of any possible universe. But we don't know, and we can never know, the limits of all of the different types of universe, or indeed if there is anything non-natural beyond the bounds of the natural universe(s). We don't even KNOW that this universe exists. There is no way to prove the statement "this universe exists" logically without either committing a logical fallacy or causing a logical paradox by doing so. So when speaking metaphysically on that scale, there is no such thing as a necessary truth that limits absolutely everything. There are natural necessary truths that limit everything natural, and would work in any type of universe with the same natural qualities as ours. But that doesn't mean that there are necessary truths that limit everything including the non-natural.

I can't describe a non-natural dimension or universe or whatever to you, because it's like asking me to describe how God is possible. It's a badly formed question that cannot ever be answered. But the fact that the question is badly formed doesn't prove that there is no non-natural dimension or there is no God, it just means that natural reasoning and logic performed by a natural being in a natural universe cannot describe or quantify or ever give any rational answer. The question itself is at fault, not the objective truth needed to properly answer it.

By trying to disprove an illogical God using logic, you're doing the same as trying to argue using baseball rules why a player in a golf match has committed an offence. It just doesn't work. Those rules are simply not relevant. And you don't have to say that the baseball rules are flawed because they can't apply to golfers, because for understanding and regulating baseball games they are still fully consistent and absolutely sound. You just have to keep in mind the limits to which they can be applied.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:21 pm

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


they are on your side now, you can safely retreat
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:28 am

Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?
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