Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:47 pm

crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:55 pm

oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.
Last edited by AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:01 pm

crispybits wrote:God might know everything about the natural world, but that knowledge is supernatural. That's the entire point. If a natural being knew then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not talking about something being naturally known. If the knowledge of the natural world is outside of the natural world and doesn't have influence on the natural world, then it doesn't cause a paradox in natural laws in the way you describe.

Premise: A natural paradox happens when a natural thing breaks a natural law
Premise: A supernatural thing is not a natural thing
Conclusion: Supernatural things cannot cause natural paradoxes


I'm sorry, is your argument that God cannot cause a natural paradox now?

You are suggesting he is omniscient, and presumably omnipotent, but cannot cause a natural paradox, and you don't find that in any way ridiculous?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:56 am

AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:15 am

oss spy wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.


The alleged deity,if it exists,does so outside the natural world,once you believe in this fantasy world all bets are off,all our fine logic meaningless.This is why theists are so hard to argue with..
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:19 am

Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:28 am

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


It's the angle they've used,among others,for a long time.'His ways are not our ways".Checkmate silly atheists.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:07 am

crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)

That's a very steep claim you're making. Given the nature of logic, the burden of argumentation is squarely on your shoulders there. You'd essentially have to show that there's no such thing as a necessary truth, not even in tautologies. Managing that would cement your place in history as one of the greatest thinkers of all time.

To answer your question of what logic is, Wikipedia is actually not a bad place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possible_World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:33 am

I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:51 am

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holy-Miracle- ... vi-content

(I'll come back to the logic point when I have more time after work)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:09 am

Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:22 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:51 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)

That's a very steep claim you're making. Given the nature of logic, the burden of argumentation is squarely on your shoulders there. You'd essentially have to show that there's no such thing as a necessary truth, not even in tautologies. Managing that would cement your place in history as one of the greatest thinkers of all time.

To answer your question of what logic is, Wikipedia is actually not a bad place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-order_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possible_World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth


OK lets give this a stab, and bear with me because I'm thinkng as I type and I'm not even sure I have the language necessary to properly define the answer yet.

Logic in every place I've looked for a definition is, roughly speaking, a system of reasoning that allows us to better predict objective reality by identifying and highlighting unsound arguments. It is not any sort of measure of objective truth in and of itself. It simply works by saying that "in a logically sound argument if the premises are true the conclusion must be true".

It can also play tricks on us. Many logical paradoxes have been pointed out which mean that technically sound arguments with true premises do not lead to a true conslusion. But we don't view these as being indicative of objective reality containing natural paradoxes, we simply view these as either having flawed premises or flawed reasoning.

Therefore the truth value of any logical statement is not based on it's soundness or it's unsoundness (unsound arguments can also sometimes provide true conclusions), but on the reality it is describing.

To argue that because something is logically sound it must also be objectively true, or to turn it around to argue that if something is logically unsound it is objectively false, you first have to find a way of linking the soundness with the truth. And logic itself doesn't claim that sort of power. Not one logician, in the entire history of mankind, will look at you with a straight face and tell you that a logically sound argument is always true.

Now, necessary truths are things that are always true no matter how you conceive of any possible universe. But we don't know, and we can never know, the limits of all of the different types of universe, or indeed if there is anything non-natural beyond the bounds of the natural universe(s). We don't even KNOW that this universe exists. There is no way to prove the statement "this universe exists" logically without either committing a logical fallacy or causing a logical paradox by doing so. So when speaking metaphysically on that scale, there is no such thing as a necessary truth that limits absolutely everything. There are natural necessary truths that limit everything natural, and would work in any type of universe with the same natural qualities as ours. But that doesn't mean that there are necessary truths that limit everything including the non-natural.

I can't describe a non-natural dimension or universe or whatever to you, because it's like asking me to describe how God is possible. It's a badly formed question that cannot ever be answered. But the fact that the question is badly formed doesn't prove that there is no non-natural dimension or there is no God, it just means that natural reasoning and logic performed by a natural being in a natural universe cannot describe or quantify or ever give any rational answer. The question itself is at fault, not the objective truth needed to properly answer it.

By trying to disprove an illogical God using logic, you're doing the same as trying to argue using baseball rules why a player in a golf match has committed an offence. It just doesn't work. Those rules are simply not relevant. And you don't have to say that the baseball rules are flawed because they can't apply to golfers, because for understanding and regulating baseball games they are still fully consistent and absolutely sound. You just have to keep in mind the limits to which they can be applied.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:21 pm

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


they are on your side now, you can safely retreat
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:28 am

Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:57 am

john9blue wrote:
oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


they are on your side now, you can safely retreat


I don't want anyone on my side if they have to change the rules to win. That's like asking me to build a barn but not allowing me to use any building materials.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:00 am

When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:04 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?

Definitely not! There are no coincidences, only God's will! If I see a butterfly while crapping, that's God's way of telling me something.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:19 am

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


Well, that was his answer to it, not mine. I'm merely pointing out that its silly to say

God knows what is going to happen, therefore no free will. Because, God is simultaneously omnipotent, therefore he can make freewill.

My point is not that any of that is logical, only that it certainly cannot be dismissed with simple logic as you tried to do.

Its as silly as what they are arguing, which is that, well, God must exist, because, someone told me he did.

It is complexity that wins this argument, which actually cannot be won, not simplicity.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:25 am

I can't believe this thread has spurted forward 30 pages in one month.

Or that the limerick fight vanished.

The Rise of Ignorance indeed.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:30 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Earl, You should look into things like that for yourself. I could be lying to you. anyone can. Don't take my word for it or anyone's for that matter. Don't even take the Bible's word for it (If you ever manage to read it and see for yourself), Just Google search it... Historians, Judas, 30 pieces of silver... And see what pops up?

Am I reading this correctly? Is a Google search expected to reveal primary evidence?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:07 pm

Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?

Definitely not! There are no coincidences, only God's will! If I see a butterfly while crapping, that's God's way of telling me something.


Wipe your behind with the butterfly?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:11 pm

crispybits wrote:When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.


You don't think it's intellectually dishonest to say, "He is supernatural, therefore what you say can't apply."? That's unscientific; it cannot possibly be disproven. Therefore, we are able to toss that argument out of the window.

AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


Well, that was his answer to it, not mine. I'm merely pointing out that its silly to say

God knows what is going to happen, therefore no free will. Because, God is simultaneously omnipotent, therefore he can make freewill.

My point is not that any of that is logical, only that it certainly cannot be dismissed with simple logic as you tried to do.

Its as silly as what they are arguing, which is that, well, God must exist, because, someone told me he did.

It is complexity that wins this argument, which actually cannot be won, not simplicity.


Why does God have to be omnipotent in order to be omniscient? The fact remains that, even if he does create freewill, he still knows what our actions will inevitably be. That isn't really free will and is, as I said earlier, the illusion of it.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:52 pm

oss spy wrote:I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.


Well it does, but it requires a number of assumptions that are not required. It has to do with actions done under omniscience and it also assumes that actions retain omniscience.

Assume Free Will. Person A is free to choose between option 1 and option 2. Person A can only make one choice, from a static universe point of view that choice is known.

Let's call Omniscient Being OB.

OB therefore knows what option would be chosen given no interference. OB then places an event before the choice that changes the probabilities. OB then knows the resulting choice.
OB then continues to do this until the event changes the result of the choice is the opposite of the choice without the interference.
Is this still Free Will or is this an illusion of Free Will.

Note the assumption; it assumes that all changes are made with the explicit understanding of using omniscience. It is clearly possible to make all actions without using the omniscience you already have. It is also possible that you can impose the notion of singular interference, so that at the point of interference you don't know what the result would be because it has not happened yet and thus cannot be observed.

So the straw men (in other words the hidden false assumptions) are easily revealed.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:43 pm

oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.


You don't think it's intellectually dishonest to say, "He is supernatural, therefore what you say can't apply."? That's unscientific; it cannot possibly be disproven. Therefore, we are able to toss that argument out of the window.


NOW you're using a stronger argument. Once you've said that, then you don't need all the omnscience logical fallacy rubbish.

Religious (read: christian) people don't claim that their God is a natural being inside the natural universe, they claim he is an external supernatural being, and that we have a spark of the supernatural inside us too called an immortal soul and that this is how we relate to him and he relates to us (except in the very rare cases of interventionist miracles where he influences actual natural reality). You can never touch, see, hear, smell or taste God in any empirical sense. That is why religious faith stands apart epistimologically from other forms of belief about things inside the universe.

So now you can just say "your God is not provable" and toss God out of the window. I fully agree witht he statement "God is not provable". Except people will still believe, because you haven't disproven him either.

Just like when MeDeFe said I'd be one of the worlds greatest thinkers of all time if I could disprove necessary truths (which it turns out is not what I needed to do, I just needed to contextualise them properly within a debate of this scale), you would be one of the greatest thinkers of all time if you can figure out an argument why there absolutely definitely cannot be some sort of supernatural being beyond the realms of our posssible perception. You have to prove an infinite negative (already an impossible task), and worse you have to prove that negative based on no evidence of the realm the thing may or may not exist within. Good luck with that.
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