Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:57 am

john9blue wrote:
oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


they are on your side now, you can safely retreat


I don't want anyone on my side if they have to change the rules to win. That's like asking me to build a barn but not allowing me to use any building materials.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:00 am

When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:04 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?

Definitely not! There are no coincidences, only God's will! If I see a butterfly while crapping, that's God's way of telling me something.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:19 am

oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


Well, that was his answer to it, not mine. I'm merely pointing out that its silly to say

God knows what is going to happen, therefore no free will. Because, God is simultaneously omnipotent, therefore he can make freewill.

My point is not that any of that is logical, only that it certainly cannot be dismissed with simple logic as you tried to do.

Its as silly as what they are arguing, which is that, well, God must exist, because, someone told me he did.

It is complexity that wins this argument, which actually cannot be won, not simplicity.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:25 am

I can't believe this thread has spurted forward 30 pages in one month.

Or that the limerick fight vanished.

The Rise of Ignorance indeed.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:30 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Earl, You should look into things like that for yourself. I could be lying to you. anyone can. Don't take my word for it or anyone's for that matter. Don't even take the Bible's word for it (If you ever manage to read it and see for yourself), Just Google search it... Historians, Judas, 30 pieces of silver... And see what pops up?

Am I reading this correctly? Is a Google search expected to reveal primary evidence?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:07 pm

Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?

Definitely not! There are no coincidences, only God's will! If I see a butterfly while crapping, that's God's way of telling me something.


Wipe your behind with the butterfly?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:11 pm

crispybits wrote:When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.


You don't think it's intellectually dishonest to say, "He is supernatural, therefore what you say can't apply."? That's unscientific; it cannot possibly be disproven. Therefore, we are able to toss that argument out of the window.

AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:Oh...so that's the angle that they're playing at? If this is the case, then I'm just going to leave this thread for fifty pages like I did last time.


Well, that was his answer to it, not mine. I'm merely pointing out that its silly to say

God knows what is going to happen, therefore no free will. Because, God is simultaneously omnipotent, therefore he can make freewill.

My point is not that any of that is logical, only that it certainly cannot be dismissed with simple logic as you tried to do.

Its as silly as what they are arguing, which is that, well, God must exist, because, someone told me he did.

It is complexity that wins this argument, which actually cannot be won, not simplicity.


Why does God have to be omnipotent in order to be omniscient? The fact remains that, even if he does create freewill, he still knows what our actions will inevitably be. That isn't really free will and is, as I said earlier, the illusion of it.
2012-04-05 19:05:58 - Eagle Orion: For the record, my supposed irrationality has kept me in the game well enough. Just in rather bizaare fashion.

2012-04-05 19:06:28 - nathanmoore04: Look at your troop count...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:52 pm

oss spy wrote:I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.


Well it does, but it requires a number of assumptions that are not required. It has to do with actions done under omniscience and it also assumes that actions retain omniscience.

Assume Free Will. Person A is free to choose between option 1 and option 2. Person A can only make one choice, from a static universe point of view that choice is known.

Let's call Omniscient Being OB.

OB therefore knows what option would be chosen given no interference. OB then places an event before the choice that changes the probabilities. OB then knows the resulting choice.
OB then continues to do this until the event changes the result of the choice is the opposite of the choice without the interference.
Is this still Free Will or is this an illusion of Free Will.

Note the assumption; it assumes that all changes are made with the explicit understanding of using omniscience. It is clearly possible to make all actions without using the omniscience you already have. It is also possible that you can impose the notion of singular interference, so that at the point of interference you don't know what the result would be because it has not happened yet and thus cannot be observed.

So the straw men (in other words the hidden false assumptions) are easily revealed.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:43 pm

oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:When it turns out the rules aren't what you assumed they were, it doesn't mean anyone changed them, maybe you just assumed wrong.


You don't think it's intellectually dishonest to say, "He is supernatural, therefore what you say can't apply."? That's unscientific; it cannot possibly be disproven. Therefore, we are able to toss that argument out of the window.


NOW you're using a stronger argument. Once you've said that, then you don't need all the omnscience logical fallacy rubbish.

Religious (read: christian) people don't claim that their God is a natural being inside the natural universe, they claim he is an external supernatural being, and that we have a spark of the supernatural inside us too called an immortal soul and that this is how we relate to him and he relates to us (except in the very rare cases of interventionist miracles where he influences actual natural reality). You can never touch, see, hear, smell or taste God in any empirical sense. That is why religious faith stands apart epistimologically from other forms of belief about things inside the universe.

So now you can just say "your God is not provable" and toss God out of the window. I fully agree witht he statement "God is not provable". Except people will still believe, because you haven't disproven him either.

Just like when MeDeFe said I'd be one of the worlds greatest thinkers of all time if I could disprove necessary truths (which it turns out is not what I needed to do, I just needed to contextualise them properly within a debate of this scale), you would be one of the greatest thinkers of all time if you can figure out an argument why there absolutely definitely cannot be some sort of supernatural being beyond the realms of our posssible perception. You have to prove an infinite negative (already an impossible task), and worse you have to prove that negative based on no evidence of the realm the thing may or may not exist within. Good luck with that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:58 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I present to you evidence of our lord and saviors existence! Just look at this tortilla bread:

Image


Well, that's a wrap.

Can you not see his holyness in this miracle of a tortilla? Clearly god has sent us a message. He did this to prove his own existence. He needs us to believe in him otherwise he'll start to doubt his own existence.


And can it be coincidence...
TORT illa
GOD zilla?

Definitely not! There are no coincidences, only God's will! If I see a butterfly while crapping, that's God's way of telling me something.


Wipe your behind with the butterfly?

I've always interpreted it as, put the butterfly in your butthole. But I suppose depending on which religion ou believe in, different courses of action will be recomended. We all claim to have different holy books and so on.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:57 pm

crispybits wrote:Religious (read: christian) people don't claim that their God is a natural being inside the natural universe, they claim he is an external supernatural being, and that we have a spark of the supernatural inside us too called an immortal soul and that this is how we relate to him and he relates to us (except in the very rare cases of interventionist miracles where he influences actual natural reality). You can never touch, see, hear, smell or taste God in any empirical sense. That is why religious faith stands apart epistemologically from other forms of belief about things inside the universe.


First of all you need to break that down somewhat or else you start talking above yourself. Religious people say a lot of things. Sometimes, other people read those things and sometimes they read those things out of context. So to say a specific thing that religious people claim is creating a straw man. Even to use the term "supernatural" is a straw man of sorts. You seem to assume that anything in the universe is "natural" and anything outside of the universe is above (or super) natural. That tends to imply that anything outside of the space time universe is strange, odd, of just plain weird.

Thus we get to the complex relation between those areas that are based on "observation" and those areas that cannot be based on "observation." The physics of a back hole can not, in general, be observed. Clearly we cannot observe inside the black hole (and come back to tell about it) but also there are no good easy examples of black holes growing, or shrinking, or vanishing all together. We can speculate, but not directly observe and verify. On the opposite scale it took us this long to find the Higgs particle for the standard model; finding the necessary particles in the Super Symmetric Standard Model probably won't be done in this century, but it's absolutely needed if we ever really want to explain gravity.

People love to live in a black and white world, but the real world is fuzzy. People tend to make a science out of religion and a religion out of science.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:56 pm

Christian theology (which I specified - and which I tried to check that oss was talking about and given the lack of denial assume he is) says that God existed and created the universe. Now I fall to my own argument in that in a supernatural sense God can break the rules and he can be both "natural" (and I mean that in a "part of the universe/multiverse/whatever" way) and supernatural. But I havent given him any qualities other than existence beyond the scope of our reality with my argument, be they strange, odd, weird, normal, rational or anything else.

In shorthand what I've basically said is "You can't know ANYTHING about the nature or the possible powers or limits of God, because you cannot gain any evidence of anything that exists outside of the limits or our perception." That doesn't mean I think everything in that realm is weird or odd, just that I reject the proposition that anything out there can be proven or disproven from where we sit right now. It may be that this realm is entirely logical, rational, and consistent with our reality, or it may be that it's odd and strange and weird and illogical and irrational. I don't know, and I don't claim to.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:32 pm

crispybits wrote:You can never touch, see, hear, smell or taste God in any empirical sense. That is why religious faith stands apart epistimologically from other forms of belief about things inside the universe.


A deeply religious person might take exception to that. They might say that their sense of God is just as real as their sense of smell. What makes religious faith stand apart is that you can't explain the sensation to someone else, or tell them how they too could could experience the sensation, as religious faith is a deeply personal experience.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:16 pm

And I'd say fair enough, but before they can use that sensation to prove anything about reality (either natural or supernatural) they would have to prove that it's a sensation caused by something external rather than a purely internal psychological state.

I don't get why this is a difficult thing to understand. What you cannot possibly prove or disprove is inadmissable as objective evidence, and that limits both sides of the debate to the extent that trying to have the debate along objective (absolute) truth terms is meaningless. If you want to defend/attack a God concept, you have to defend/attack it based on it's purely internal consistency rather than it's objective reality or consistency with nature. Therefore as there are a very large number of internally consistent possible God models, anyone telling you they know the objective truth about God, while it's technically possible that they are right, is very unlikely to have accurate objective revelation.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:12 pm

crispybits wrote:It's not just the inconsistencies between positions that many people have problems with daddy, it's inconsistencies within each position (or at least all of the non-100%-literal or non-100%-symbolic positions).
Well, right. I wasn't talking about dealing with inconsistencies so much as with having an objection to particular positions put forth in the process of an apologetic. For example, I have seen some here say that they consider Christianity to be ridiculous because there is no way that the earth is only 6,000 years old. That's an illegitimate objection because that belief is not essential to being a Christian. The same for opposing legal equality for gay marriage. What I said also applies to contemning Christianity because someone, (as someone has done in this thread) responds to legitimate arguments by saying, "You'll know the truth when you're burning in hell, buddy!" I have never made a statement like that, and never will. (You can check; I have been posting on this forum for years, largely on this subject.) So that attitude is certinly not necessary to being a Christian. So the upside of the diversity of opinions on so many issues and doctrines is that those doctrines need not be a hinderance (or excuse).
How does anyone (christian or otherwise) decide which bits of the bible are literal truth, and which bits are symbolism and parable intended to guide us towards moral truth without being meant to be taken literally?
I think the difficulty here arises from certain implicit assumptions. I'm going to steal a metaphor from the introduction to C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Consider the Kingdom of God to be a house with many rooms. Lewis presents his work as the hallway of the house; I present the "very VERY, few beliefs that are the absolute common ground" that I mentioned earlier as that hallway. You're not meant to stay in the hallway. It is in the rooms that there are chairs to sit in, meals to eat, fires to warm yourself by, and beds to sleep in. But you can't choose a room until you enter in the front door into the hallway. Choosing your set of convictions on the peripheral issues would amount to entering a room.
And who decides which is which?
That depends on who you talk to, and is one of the factors in choosing a room. My Catholic friends would say that it’s the Church “magisterium”. For what I would say, let me give you some background.

Background 1: Some in this forum have argued that there are no contradictions in the Bible. I believe that is true in one sense, but not in a sense that it is worth trying to prove here. Instead I say this:

Sure, the Bible is full of contradictions. Here’s a glaring one: Proverbs 26:4-5: “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.” It tells you to do one thing, then turns around and tells you to do exactly the opposite. The whole Bible is the whole truth, therefore, part of the Bible is part of the truth, and as you know, a partial truth is a falsehood. Obviously, one of these is the truth, or God’s direction, for some circumstances and the other is for others.

The Bible is a big and multi-faceted book, and life, to which it applies, is also big and multi-faceted. Not everything applies to everything, so sure, it can be applied in different ways in different circumstances, and sure, it can also be misapplied.

Background 2: I was studying into the evolution of the Passover Seder and came across an article from a rabbi where he was discussing the Talmud. I wish I could find it again to quote it, but he asked, “Why does G-d leave so much in His Word to be interpreted and debated?” His conclusion was that God never intended His Word to be a cold, static thing inscribed on paper, or on stone, or whatever. He always intended it to be expressed in human flesh, so that it would have life. I could bore you to tears with a litany of Biblical support for that idea, but if you’re interested, just a few to look at would be 2nd Corinthians 3:3, Jeremiah 31:33&34, and 2nd Cor. 3:6

So my answer is that each one needs to hear from God for themselves on questionable and debated issues. It is the relating and interacting with God that is actually the point, rather than the letter of the law. In order to do that legitimately, though, you first have to come in the front door and get into the hallway. You can’t check out the doors to the different rooms from outside; it’s not a motel. An officer doesn’t give orders to the soldiers in the enemy army, and a (good) husband doesn’t whisper sweet nothings to someone else’s wife.

You will point out that many have thereby come to different convictions, and I answer that you are making the assumption that that is necessarily a problem, an assumption that unfortunately many Christians also make. I am convinced that the unity God always intended was less organizational and more organic.

And why does, for instance, your interpretation have more significance for you than Viceroy's (and vice versa) if you're both talking about the same immutable thing (absolute moral truth)?
Well, because it is mine. Or perhaps better said, it is the light that God has given me to walk by for the purpose and work that he has for me.

Is God's absolute moral truth actually a mutable and constantly changing thing as fits the culture (because every culture has different moral standards and the biblee has been influential in many of these different settings), or is it a fixed and unchanging thing (and if so why does biblical interpretation change over the centuries)?
I would say that God’s truth is universal and immutable, but we and our circumstances are not, so the application is not.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:43 pm

What are the common ground beliefs that make up the hallway in your metaphor?

The reason I ask this is that I'm not sure these common ground beliefs are actually either universal (as in there will be some christians who would not hold them as truth), and therefore not common ground, or that they would be so vague as to mean you are essentially abandoning the "christian" element and just talking about the things which do not require a belief in a higher power, but rather just a moral sense of right and wrong.

I'm looking for common ground elements which mark christianity out as the only true path, the special and unique way to God (nobody comes to the father except through me), because without them what you have isn't a religion, or at least not christianity in any form I've ever heard it. If the common ground is just "be nice to each other" then I could achieve the same thing by adhering to the tenets of the sacred film "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:56 pm

crispybits wrote:What are the common ground beliefs that make up the hallway in your metaphor?

The reason I ask this is that I'm not sure these common ground beliefs are actually either universal (as in there will be some christians who would not hold them as truth), and therefore not common ground, or that they would be so vague as to mean you are essentially abandoning the "christian" element and just talking about the things which do not require a belief in a higher power, but rather just a moral sense of right and wrong.

I'm looking for common ground elements which mark christianity out as the only true path, the special and unique way to God (nobody comes to the father except through me), because without them what you have isn't a religion, or at least not christianity in any form I've ever heard it. If the common ground is just "be nice to each other" then I could achieve the same thing by adhering to the tenets of the sacred film "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".


BLASPHEMY!!

IIRC, and I am mostly blindly jumping into this conversation, but the 'common ground beliefs' regarding salvation through Jesus with only Christianity predominantly started with the works of St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, who both basically insisted that the Church is the only means through which salvation is attained. Keep in mind that much of what St. Augustine wrote was dropped in favor of St. Aquinas' crap important religious-political writings.

For them, the Church was the only true path either because (1) they said so, and/or (2) the Bible said so. That's basically what it boils down to. Some may argue that either/both Aquinas or/and Augustine meant that the 'Church' included multiple Christian Churches--except for of course the heretics, those unsavory Christian types--or they/one of them was referring to a specific Church, the Roman Catholic Church, so the Splitters and later abominations cannot be the true path to Magic Mountain.

So, the "common ground elements" are arbitrarily determined within the confines of one's interpretation of early Christian scholars up to modern Christian scholars. Once we see arguments that expand or contract at will this 'common' ground, then it becomes apparent that these "ground elements" are disputed, thus are not at all common and are definitely contradictory as a whole.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:18 pm

Actually, crispy, both you and BBS are way off on what the "common ground" would be. Cutting it down to the absolute, I would enumerate them thus:
1. There is a God, who is personal, not an impersonal force. He created us and the rest of the universe. (This would include everything from"Zap" to very distantly setting natural processes in motion. Any more specificity would go into disputed areas.)

2. We as human beings are created "in His image", meaning created to be like Him. At some point, each of us chooses to do what we know is wrong, known as "sin" which puts a separation between us and God.

3. Yeshua, Jesus of Nazareth, was/is that God in human flesh, referred to as the "Son of God". As such, his words and actions while here reflect and teach about the nature of God, and that reflection and teaching is one part of his purpose in coming here. The other part (I would like to add "the primary part", but some, though few if any, might disagree) of his purpose was to be crucified and die as a sacrifice in order to forgive our sin and take away the separation between us and God, allowing us to relate to Him.

4. The life of the believer should be characterized by "good works" or improved behavior. (I can't say any more about what constitutes "good works", or where they fit in. That's definitely in the "choose your room" department, but it's in there somewhere for everybody.)

From there I could extend the list with gradually decreasing commonality.

Maybe I could add:
4. God is responsible for us having the Bible as we know it in order to teach us about him. (Once again, that is pretty vague in order to include a wide diversity of views on just in what way and to what degree the Bible that we have is inspired.)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:22 pm

Man created god, and now god has gotten out of control, should we put him down?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Gillipig wrote:Man created god, and now god has gotten out of control, should we put him down?



Put him down, you don't know where he's been.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:18 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:Actually, crispy, both you and BBS are way off on what the "common ground" would be. Cutting it down to the absolute, I would enumerate them thus:
1. There is a God, who is personal, not an impersonal force. He created us and the rest of the universe. (This would include everything from"Zap" to very distantly setting natural processes in motion. Any more specificity would go into disputed areas.)

2. We as human beings are created "in His image", meaning created to be like Him. At some point, each of us chooses to do what we know is wrong, known as "sin" which puts a separation between us and God.

3. Yeshua, Jesus of Nazareth, was/is that God in human flesh, referred to as the "Son of God". As such, his words and actions while here reflect and teach about the nature of God, and that reflection and teaching is one part of his purpose in coming here. The other part (I would like to add "the primary part", but some, though few if any, might disagree) of his purpose was to be crucified and die as a sacrifice in order to forgive our sin and take away the separation between us and God, allowing us to relate to Him.

4. The life of the believer should be characterized by "good works" or improved behavior. (I can't say any more about what constitutes "good works", or where they fit in. That's definitely in the "choose your room" department, but it's in there somewhere for everybody.)

From there I could extend the list with gradually decreasing commonality.

Maybe I could add:
4. God is responsible for us having the Bible as we know it in order to teach us about him. (Once again, that is pretty vague in order to include a wide diversity of views on just in what way and to what degree the Bible that we have is inspired.)


How do you know?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:29 pm

I was just answering crispy's question of what I considered to be the "common ground" of Christians. Despite the title of the thread, I wasn't posting this of evidence for God. This is just a list of beliefs, not intended to be reason to believe them.

The answer to your question would take some doing. Let me work on it. I already have a previous commitment in the "Archbishop" thread.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:32 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:I was just answering crispy's question of what I considered to be the "common ground" of Christians. Despite the title of the thread, I wasn't posting this of evidence for God. This is just a list of beliefs, not intended to be reason to believe them.

The answer to your question would take some doing. Let me work on it. I already have a previous commitment in the "Archbishop" thread.


Well, how about this:

How do you know that your own interpretation is the "commonly held elements"?

It seems that as you extend the claims on behalf of God and the inclusive goodies which come with God, you also exclude/contradict the claims made by other religions--even of the 'same book', e.g. the Torah, Bible, and Quran.

If you limit yourself to the Bible, then so much for the road to salvation for the Jews and Muslims.

If we accept this as the 'commonly' held elements, then which Christian sects are acceptable and which ones are heretical?
(at this point, we're in general agreement with the claims made by St. Aquinas).
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:40 pm

As usual, you're mushing together several very different things. Let me try to take it step by step.

How do you know that your own interpretation is the "commonly held elements"?
It isn't. If I were going to give you my "own interpretation", There is a a lot more that I would have said. Over the years I have been involved with, and learned from Christians of many different denominations and non-denominational persuasions. We also have discussions and debates on various subjects on the Jesus Freaks Forum, where we pretty much run the whole gamut.

In answer to cripy's question, I was attempting to give what is not my, or enyone else's, "own interpretation", but rather the short list of things that everybody who is a "Christian" agrees with -- the things that are not debatable or disputed among Christians --the "hallway" of "Mere Christianity"

It seems that as you extend the claims on behalf of God and the inclusive goodies which come with God, you also exclude/contradict the claims made by other religions--even of the 'same book', e.g. the Torah, Bible, and Quran.
Exactly. I was not talking about "other religions", I was talking about Christianity, and attempting to define it at its bare core. Comparing that to the tenets of other religions is an entirely different subject.

If you limit yourself to the Bible, then so much for the road to salvation for the Jews and Muslims.
Once again, you apparently misunderstand the purpose of my post, but your grouping Jews and Muslims together in the context of "limiting {my}self to the Bible" shows a different class of misunderstanding. The Holy Book of the Jews is the first 2/3 of mine. That of the Muslims is not the same at all. It shares various characters and themes, but it is a different book.

If we accept this as the 'commonly' held elements, then which Christian sects are acceptable and which ones are heretical?
All,...none. That's the point. OK, Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses would probably have trouble with "Jesus of Nazereth was/is that same God", but other than that, any person or organization that could be considered "Christian" share these few core beliefs. That's the point; that's the question I was answering.
(at this point, we're in general agreement with the claims made by St. Aquinas).
Of course, although Aquinas said a lot more, and some of those things would be disputed by some Christians. These are just the things that would not be disputed by anybody. Once again, that's the point. I was answering Cripy's specific question.
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