Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:04 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:I'm probably one of the worst Christians out there. Probably no salvation for me.


The fact that you recognize what a low down dirty shame, piece of a shit bag that you are means that there is more hope for you then for a living lion.

It's those who believe that they are "All of that" and then some, who don't realize the trouble they are in. In the resurrection and the final judgment at the end of God's plan. Then "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (Luke 13:30).





--Andy
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:08 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:I'm probably one of the worst Christians out there. Probably no salvation for me.


The fact that you recognize what a low down dirty shame, piece of a shit bag that you are means that there is more hope for you then for a living lion.

It's those who believe that they are "All of that" and then some, who don't realize the trouble they are in. In the resurrection and the final judgment at the end of God's plan. Then "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (Luke 13:30).

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised
, [vile things/people] hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:..."
-1Corinthians 1:27-28

If they can see the truth of what they are!





--Andy


Hey Andy; You forgot the to include the Bible verses in your quote. But that's OK though; I fixed it for ya. OK! You are welcome! And don't mention it. ;)

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised
, [vile things/people] hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:..."
-1Corinthians 1:27-28

If they can see the truth of what they are!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:59 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:I'm probably one of the worst Christians out there. Probably no salvation for me.


The fact that you recognize what a low down dirty shame, piece of a shit bag that you are means that there is more hope for you then for a living lion.

It's those who believe that they are "All of that" and then some, who don't realize the trouble they are in. In the resurrection and the final judgment at the end of God's plan. Then "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (Luke 13:30).

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised
, [vile things/people] hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:..."
-1Corinthians 1:27-28

If they can see the truth of what they are!


You might want to reconsider your own position in that case - I've seldom heard anyone singing the "Ha HA I'm saved and you're not!" so smugly.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby comic boy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:31 pm

Recognising himself as a semi literate bufoon may earn Warmonger divine grace , yet it also confirms his opinions as pretty worthless , careful who you get in bed with Viceroy :D
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:06 pm

comic boy wrote:Recognising himself as a semi literate bufoon may earn Warmonger divine grace , yet it also confirms his opinions as pretty worthless , careful who you get in bed with Viceroy :D


Your opinion doesn't really matter and neither does mine. What matters is the final judgement and if I accept the truth or not. I know what I am but what are you?

If I die believing something that is not true then so do you! And so what? But if I die believing something that is true then I will rise again to life eternal and live again but where would you be???

Would it even matter to anyone for all eternity that you even existed for a tiny unimportant life and time of no more then 100 years or so, in a life filled with painful sorrow and few moments of joy and absolutely no hope what so ever? Do you think that anyone will even remember you then in all of eternity? In an eternity fill with nothing but pure joy and love? Do you really think that anyone will even miss you then?

The old adage is true, that it's not what you know but who you know; And I know exactly with who I am in "bed" with and forever will be in an eternity that you may not even get to know because you simply don't want to. Repentance is a choice and Your eternal death penalty and condemnation is your choice and your fault not God's.

We are born, we live and then we die. And everything in between are just the choices that we make in life. And there are no second chances to make amends for our wrong Choices in life when the opportunities lay right in front of our faces. when we die we are simply the sum of our choices that we make in this life, and that is all that we are and that is what we get judged on, the choices that we make that make us who we are in return.

So You be careful yourself with whom you get into "bed" with because that is your choice. ;)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:00 am

Viceroy wrote:Your opinion doesn't really matter and neither does mine. What matters is the final judgement and if I accept the truth or not. I know what I am but what are you?

If I die believing something that is not true then so do you! And so what? But if I die believing something that is true then I will rise again to life eternal and live again but where would you be???


You're basically saying here that your faith is a form of Pascal's wager. You have decided to believe that something is true because if you do and you're right then you win, but if you're wrong then you don't lose, because it doesn't matter anyway as there's no God or judgement or eternal life.

And it takes us back to that factor of truth, which is how we differ. So forget the religious claims for a moment, and lets address the principles of truth or falsehood. What is the underlying principle by which you take any claim and determine if it's correct or not? When presented with anyone saying "X is Y", how do you determine if X actually is Y, or if they are mistaken or lying and X is actually not Y at all.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:08 am

crispybits wrote:
Viceroy wrote:Your opinion doesn't really matter and neither does mine. What matters is the final judgement and if I accept the truth or not. I know what I am but what are you?

If I die believing something that is not true then so do you! And so what? But if I die believing something that is true then I will rise again to life eternal and live again but where would you be???


You're basically saying here that your faith is a form of Pascal's wager. You have decided to believe that something is true because if you do and you're right then you win, but if you're wrong then you don't lose, because it doesn't matter anyway as there's no God or judgement or eternal life.

And it takes us back to that factor of truth, which is how we differ. So forget the religious claims for a moment, and lets address the principles of truth or falsehood. What is the underlying principle by which you take any claim and determine if it's correct or not? When presented with anyone saying "X is Y", how do you determine if X actually is Y, or if they are mistaken or lying and X is actually not Y at all.


It is truly amazing how from my comment you only picked up on this one part to base a foundationless case. Allow me to repost the whole message and see if I can't drive it home, AGAIN!

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Recognising himself as a semi literate bufoon may earn Warmonger divine grace , yet it also confirms his opinions as pretty worthless , careful who you get in bed with Viceroy :D


Your opinion doesn't really matter and neither does mine. What matters is the final judgement and if I accept the truth or not. I know what I am but what are you?

If I die believing something that is not true then so do you! And so what? But if I die believing something that is true then I will rise again to life eternal and live again but where would you be???

Would it even matter to anyone for all eternity that you even existed for a tiny unimportant life and time of no more then 100 years or so, in a life filled with painful sorrow and few moments of joy and absolutely no hope what so ever? Do you think that anyone will even remember you then in all of eternity? In an eternity fill with nothing but pure joy and love? Do you really think that anyone will even miss you then?

The old adage is true, that it's not what you know but who you know; And I know exactly with who I am in "bed" with and forever will be in an eternity that you may not even get to know because you simply don't want to. Repentance is a choice and Your eternal death penalty and condemnation is your choice and your fault not God's.

We are born, we live and then we die. And everything in between are just the choices that we make in life. And there are no second chances to make amends for our wrong Choices in life when the opportunities lay right in front of our faces. when we die we are simply the sum of our choices that we make in this life, and that is all that we are and that is what we get judged on, the choices that we make that make us who we are in return.

So You be careful yourself with whom you get into "bed" with because that is your choice. ;)


You see, the point was not some kind of philosophical wager but about who you choose to climb into bed with. The choices that we make in life and where they lead us to, is the whole crux of this comment. But now that you bring it up...

No faith in any belief is blind and without some kind of evidence. The Bible claims are back up by History, Archeology, Science, Medicine and Prophecy. There is no evidence that proves that God does not exist. But there is literally tons of evidence that proves that God does exist and that his word is infallible. And that is why any intelligent person can trust in the claims of the Bible. That is why any reasonably intelligent person would believe in the God of the Bible.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby comic boy on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:54 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Recognising himself as a semi literate bufoon may earn Warmonger divine grace , yet it also confirms his opinions as pretty worthless , careful who you get in bed with Viceroy :D


Your opinion doesn't really matter and neither does mine. What matters is the final judgement and if I accept the truth or not. I know what I am but what are you?

If I die believing something that is not true then so do you! And so what? But if I die believing something that is true then I will rise again to life eternal and live again but where would you be???

Would it even matter to anyone for all eternity that you even existed for a tiny unimportant life and time of no more then 100 years or so, in a life filled with painful sorrow and few moments of joy and absolutely no hope what so ever? Do you think that anyone will even remember you then in all of eternity? In an eternity fill with nothing but pure joy and love? Do you really think that anyone will even miss you then?

The old adage is true, that it's not what you know but who you know; And I know exactly with who I am in "bed" with and forever will be in an eternity that you may not even get to know because you simply don't want to. Repentance is a choice and Your eternal death penalty and condemnation is your choice and your fault not God's.

We are born, we live and then we die. And everything in between are just the choices that we make in life. And there are no second chances to make amends for our wrong Choices in life when the opportunities lay right in front of our faces. when we die we are simply the sum of our choices that we make in this life, and that is all that we are and that is what we get judged on, the choices that we make that make us who we are in return.

So You be careful yourself with whom you get into "bed" with because that is your choice. ;)


So to be concise , you need a philosophical crutch and I prefer to live in the present :D
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:57 pm

Edit:

Meh, f*ck it, on second thought I can't be bothered to get into this discussion again.
Btw. huge respect for your stamina crispy.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:35 pm

OK so you've kind of answered the question there indirectly Viceroy. To establish the truth value of the claim "X is Y", you would look for evidence that X is Y. That is entirely sensible and I have no problem with that at all.

So now we have to examine the principles of evidence. What kinds of evidence are good indicators when establishing the truth value of the statement X is Y? Remember we're staying away from religious statements specifically, I'm trying to keep this in very general terms in order to remove any bias in either direction from either of us.

It seems to me we have a few different possible types of evidence:

1) Statistical Evidence
2) Testimonial Evidence
3) Anecdotal Evidence

(feel free to add another category or two in if you don't think these are comprehensive by the way)

1) Statistical Evidence is evidence from confirmed and falsifiable sources gained from factual observations without any interpretation attached to them. For example "the car has many dents and scratches" is statistical evidence.
2) Testimonial Evidence is evidence from confirmed, quotable sources, who have established themselves as an authority on a subject, declaring a judgement about statistical evidence. For example "the car has many dents and scratches because the driver was incompetent and hit many different objects over a long time period" from a crash damage expert.
3) Anecdotal Evidence is evidence from unconfirmed sources, which if confirmed could come under either of the other two categories. For example "the car has many dents and scratches from hitting bollards in the supermarket car park" from the supermarket manager who has found the same colour paint on his bollards is Anecdotal Statistical Evidence, and "the car has many dents and scratches, I often see the driver staggering around when he gets out of the car like he's drunk" from a neighbour is Anecdotal Testimonial Evidence.

Still with me here Viceroy? Anything you want to add/amend in that or are we in agreement on this stuff?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby CreepersWiener on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:05 pm

Didn't Jesus say,"If you don't need a doctor then shut the f*ck up"?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby notyou2 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:34 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:Didn't Jesus say,"If you don't need a doctor then shut the f*ck up"?


Yes, right after he rolled a large rock over his foot.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:50 am

crispybits wrote:OK so you've kind of answered the question there indirectly Viceroy. To establish the truth value of the claim "X is Y", you would look for evidence that X is Y. That is entirely sensible and I have no problem with that at all.

So now we have to examine the principles of evidence. What kinds of evidence are good indicators when establishing the truth value of the statement X is Y? Remember we're staying away from religious statements specifically, I'm trying to keep this in very general terms in order to remove any bias in either direction from either of us.

It seems to me we have a few different possible types of evidence:

1) Statistical Evidence
2) Testimonial Evidence
3) Anecdotal Evidence

(feel free to add another category or two in if you don't think these are comprehensive by the way)

1) Statistical Evidence is evidence from confirmed and falsifiable sources gained from factual observations without any interpretation attached to them. For example "the car has many dents and scratches" is statistical evidence.
2) Testimonial Evidence is evidence from confirmed, quotable sources, who have established themselves as an authority on a subject, declaring a judgement about statistical evidence. For example "the car has many dents and scratches because the driver was incompetent and hit many different objects over a long time period" from a crash damage expert.
3) Anecdotal Evidence is evidence from unconfirmed sources, which if confirmed could come under either of the other two categories. For example "the car has many dents and scratches from hitting bollards in the supermarket car park" from the supermarket manager who has found the same colour paint on his bollards is Anecdotal Statistical Evidence, and "the car has many dents and scratches, I often see the driver staggering around when he gets out of the car like he's drunk" from a neighbour is Anecdotal Testimonial Evidence.

Still with me here Viceroy? Anything you want to add/amend in that or are we in agreement on this stuff?


Viceroy? You seem to have gone very quiet in here? Are you OK? Have I said something you think is incorrect or that in some way demonstrates my infidel atheist principles without consideration for the divine truth here?

You say the Bible is evidence for God, obviously I disagree and all I'm trying to do is establish why you think that is true. To do that I have to understand how you believe that X is evidence for Y in a general sense.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:11 am

Taken from the f*ck religion thread to avoid off-topic

Shape wrote:
crispybits wrote:
Shape wrote:
crispybits wrote:That and the fact that if you actually read about the God portrayed by the religions that often get used to justify discrimination (as in the Abrahamic ones), it is generally speaking a scumbag with less moral character than your average death row inmate.

Perhaps you can elaborate here as well. My Old Testament knowledge is fuzzy.

-Shape


I'd say that would be dragging this off-topic a little, if you do a search for "Post evidence for God here" thread and can be bothered to read however many pages that ran to you'll see most of the reasons

My personal favourite without going into the hundreds of other bits (and I don't want to derail this thread so I'll take any further discussion on this point to the evidence for God thread). God make Adam, Eve, and the garden of Eden, and tells them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They do, so God punishes them and every human for ever for doing so. But, if they had no knowledge of good and evil at the point where they chose to disobey, then punishing them and all of us ever since because they did not know right from wrong until after the "crime" seems a little backward (and disproportionate) no?

Well, God told them not to eat the fruit of the tree, thus directly disobeying him, and, in essence, not really trusting him. They at least had to know to some extent who God was, so it seems their condemnation is just. And their sinning against a perfect, all-powerful, all-whatever being. Think about stealing money from a convenient store and stealing money from the National Treasury or something. Similar crime, vastly different punishments, because you have to consider who you 'sinned' against.

-Shape


If you have a young child, a baby, and you know it doesn't understand the concepts of right and wrong, and it does something wrong, do you punish the child for doing wrong, or do you educate it?

Further to that, if an adult who knows the difference between right and wrong does wrong, do you punish all of it's friends, it's spouse and it's children and grandchildren ad infinitum for doing wrong, or does the person who does wrong hold the moral culpability for their action?

As I said there's many other examples (many stronger than this one) of this principle, this is just the one I find most amusing when people claim that God is an absolute moral arbiter. Another one may be advocating eternal punishment for finite crimes, and being so egotistical that the only truly unforgiveable crime is not loving and worshipping this "perfect being"
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:45 am

crispybits wrote:Taken from the f*ck religion thread to avoid off-topic

Shape wrote:
crispybits wrote:
Shape wrote:
crispybits wrote:That and the fact that if you actually read about the God portrayed by the religions that often get used to justify discrimination (as in the Abrahamic ones), it is generally speaking a scumbag with less moral character than your average death row inmate.

Perhaps you can elaborate here as well. My Old Testament knowledge is fuzzy.

-Shape


I'd say that would be dragging this off-topic a little, if you do a search for "Post evidence for God here" thread and can be bothered to read however many pages that ran to you'll see most of the reasons

My personal favourite without going into the hundreds of other bits (and I don't want to derail this thread so I'll take any further discussion on this point to the evidence for God thread). God make Adam, Eve, and the garden of Eden, and tells them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They do, so God punishes them and every human for ever for doing so. But, if they had no knowledge of good and evil at the point where they chose to disobey, then punishing them and all of us ever since because they did not know right from wrong until after the "crime" seems a little backward (and disproportionate) no?

Well, God told them not to eat the fruit of the tree, thus directly disobeying him, and, in essence, not really trusting him. They at least had to know to some extent who God was, so it seems their condemnation is just. And their sinning against a perfect, all-powerful, all-whatever being. Think about stealing money from a convenient store and stealing money from the National Treasury or something. Similar crime, vastly different punishments, because you have to consider who you 'sinned' against.

-Shape


If you have a young child, a baby, and you know it doesn't understand the concepts of right and wrong, and it does something wrong, do you punish the child for doing wrong, or do you educate it?

Further to that, if an adult who knows the difference between right and wrong does wrong, do you punish all of it's friends, it's spouse and it's children and grandchildren ad infinitum for doing wrong, or does the person who does wrong hold the moral culpability for their action?

As I said there's many other examples (many stronger than this one) of this principle, this is just the one I find most amusing when people claim that God is an absolute moral arbiter. Another one may be advocating eternal punishment for finite crimes, and being so egotistical that the only truly unforgiveable crime is not loving and worshipping this "perfect being"

This is where comparing God to people fails.

The goal of a parent is to have an individual child who is responsible, moral, etc.


The goal of God for humanity is other... so while your ideas of punihsment and so forth loosely apply, they don't precisely.



It is significant that the tree was one of knowledge. Had they not partaken, humanity would not be what it is.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:29 am

crispybits wrote:If you have a young child, a baby, and you know it doesn't understand the concepts of right and wrong, and it does something wrong, do you punish the child for doing wrong, or do you educate it?


A couple of points, especially as the whole story is a gigantic word play on Hebrew words.

The tree was not "right and wrong" but "good and evil." They knew what was right and what was wrong. They knew eating the fruit was wrong.

Perhaps they might not have realized that the serpent was "evil" because they did not know what evil was.

Perhaps they might therefore have believed the twisted words that they would become "like god" by the knowledge within the fruit.

Mitigating circumstances, I'll grant you, but aside from the fact that they merely discovered they were naked (knowledge and naked are similar in Hebrew) their only practical punishment was that farming was going to be a real pain in the ass and giving birth (huh, what's that probably thought eve who hasn't gotten pregnant so far in the story) was going to also be painful.

Remember, they were only kicked out of the garden because the other heavenly hosts thought they would be a repeat offender and steal from the tree of "life" and live forever, like the heavenly hosts.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:32 am

So the whole doctrine that almost every christian church is based on, that you can live a perfect life but you must still accept God to be saved, that's based on what exactly if not that original sin by Eve?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:42 am

crispybits wrote:So the whole doctrine that almost every christian church is based on, that you can live a perfect life but you must still accept God to be saved, that's based on what exactly if not that original sin by Eve?


"Original Sin" is the result, not the punishment, of obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. It's why you can't live a perfect life. Note: I'm a Catholic, and so I don't believe in OSAS. The notion of "original sin" and "divine mercy" is a complex issue that probably deserves its own thread, but I doubt anyone is interested here.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:29 am

crispy are you going on with your bullshit "judging god by human moral standards" argument again? i thought we talked about this?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:42 am

Well, apparently he's allowed to judge us by his. Turn around is fair play.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:18 am

Also, the religious are the ones contending that there is some absolute moral truth, and that this is given to us by God. Using the same source they use for judging this absolute morality, and then asking if God fits this absolute moral code, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Or are there more than one absolute moral truths? In which case there is no absolute moral truth because it all becomes relative and the religious argument collapses again from a different angle.

Provide a reasonable argument why there can be different standards for God as for us when there is only one absolute standard and I'l stop this line of reasoning. But nobody has, all anybody ahs done is plead a special exception for the thing they cannot even prove is there, much the same as they plead a special exception on the "everything must have been created, except for God..." argument.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:20 am

I'm still using an on-screen keyboard, so this will be brief. My standard answer to objections as to why God can do things forbidden to us, like judge or demand to be praised is: "You're absolutely right. Who does he think he is? God? Oh, wait..."
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:00 am

daddy1gringo wrote:I'm still using an on-screen keyboard, so this will be brief. My standard answer to objections as to why God can do things forbidden to us, like judge or demand to be praised is: "You're absolutely right. Who does he think he is? God? Oh, wait..."


What makes you thinks God is male?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:14 pm

crispybits wrote:Also, the religious are the ones contending that there is some absolute moral truth, and that this is given to us by God. Using the same source they use for judging this absolute morality, and then asking if God fits this absolute moral code, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Or are there more than one absolute moral truths? In which case there is no absolute moral truth because it all becomes relative and the religious argument collapses again from a different angle.

Provide a reasonable argument why there can be different standards for God as for us when there is only one absolute standard and I'l stop this line of reasoning. But nobody has, all anybody ahs done is plead a special exception for the thing they cannot even prove is there, much the same as they plead a special exception on the "everything must have been created, except for God..." argument.


maybe... sounds crazy, but... maybe different beings should have different moral expectations?

there's a reason we don't punish animals for murdering each other. hell, we don't even punish kids as harshly as we punish adults for identical crimes.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby notyou2 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:33 pm

crispybits wrote:Also, the religious are the ones contending that there is some absolute moral truth, and that this is given to us by God. Using the same source they use for judging this absolute morality, and then asking if God fits this absolute moral code, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Or are there more than one absolute moral truths? In which case there is no absolute moral truth because it all becomes relative and the religious argument collapses again from a different angle.

Provide a reasonable argument why there can be different standards for God as for us when there is only one absolute standard and I'l stop this line of reasoning. But nobody has, all anybody ahs done is plead a special exception for the thing they cannot even prove is there, much the same as they plead a special exception on the "everything must have been created, except for God..." argument.


I'm pretty sure we got the absolute moral truthiness gene from the chimps. Well, most of us did, the others got it from snakes.
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