Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 2:55 am

Neither. I'm forward for Freedom.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 3:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Neither. I'm forward for Freedom.

'Cause you don't belong to me and I don't belong to you?

Yeah yeah yeah!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 5:20 am

john9blue wrote:this paragraph is a giant jumbled mess of cause and effect. you really thing people become atheists because of their schooling? i can understand how learning about, say, evolution can make someone more likely to be an atheist, but schooling in general has little to no effect on someone's core beliefs.


As chang said, I didn't say schooling, but education. Education statrs off as learning by rote, you learn the times tables by repeating them back over and over again. As we get older that changes into understanding how to multiply and being able to do the actual calculations in our heads. As we progress higher and higher in the edcuation systems, free critical thinking is (or at least should be) more and more important, until you get to the PhD and post-docs who are responsible for coming up with brand new ideas about the world and then going about finding tests to see if those ideas are true or false. More education = a more critically trained mind = more atheism.

john9blue wrote:industrialization wasn't even POSSIBLE until 250 years ago. that's a pretty bad example.

republics and democracies are way older than that. and the difference between those and atheism is that in one case, you are adding something, and in the other, you are taking something away.

question: if atheism is the "default position" of every person, and atheism is good for society, then why does every successful society have tons of religious people? the evidence doesn't match your theory.


An atheist society wasn't even possible until now either. For hundreds of years a public declaration of atheism had you at risk of being arrested, tortured and killed because the church and the state went so closely hand in hand and dissent was much more stamped down on than it is now. By the way the industrial revolution came right on the back of the "age of reason", which is the period in time when western civilisation started to really value critical thinking, holding no ideas as sacred, and science as we know it today really took off. The time of Newton. The time of philosophers like Locke and Voltaire. We moved away from dogma in a big way during that time, and it led to the technological advancements that are still happening today.

You're right about republics, that was a bad example, but the underlying point was that nothing has ever been done until it's done. We are all free to make arguments why something that has never been done will succeed or fail, why it will cause problem X or solve problem Y in society, but in the end the only way to really know if something will work is to let it happen. This is a fundamental part of society changing over time to embrace new ideas and new philosophies. You state that moral decay is inevitable if we get rid of religion, but I'm not saying we get rid of religion, I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.

Finally, I didn't say that atheism is the default position of every person, but you're right it is. Imagine a nursery school full of children whose parents have never mentioned religion to them. Now can you point out the christian kid, or the muslim kid, or the buddhist kid. Not the child with christian or muslim or buddhist parents, but the child who has developed a faith in a certain religious philosophy. Religion is something we are taught, we are all born without it. Spirituality, the belief in some vague higher power, may well be innate, but religions are not.

What I actually said was that the default position of logical atheism is that we should not believe a claim until we see evidence for that claim. It's actually closer to agnosticism in that regrd than strong atheism, but with the proviso that we start in the position of nothing is true and then proceed to build our views of the world based on the evidence shown for us, so the correct position is not to believe any God-myths until such time as evidence is provided for them.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 11:09 am

crispybits wrote:As chang said, I didn't say schooling, but education. Education statrs off as learning by rote, you learn the times tables by repeating them back over and over again. As we get older that changes into understanding how to multiply and being able to do the actual calculations in our heads. As we progress higher and higher in the edcuation systems, free critical thinking is (or at least should be) more and more important, until you get to the PhD and post-docs who are responsible for coming up with brand new ideas about the world and then going about finding tests to see if those ideas are true or false. More education = a more critically trained mind = more atheism.


for many people, it's more like:

more education = more indoctrination = you think you know better than everyone else = atheism (or modern liberalism, there's a reason these two are correlated)

if you talk to people who are intelligent beyond just book-smart memorization skills, you'll find that most of them are agnostic and they lean libertarian (which is far removed from the above). these are the people that realize how much they don't know and are perfectly fine with leaving others alone, instead of forcing others to believe what they believe.

crispybits wrote:An atheist society wasn't even possible until now either. For hundreds of years a public declaration of atheism had you at risk of being arrested, tortured and killed because the church and the state went so closely hand in hand and dissent was much more stamped down on than it is now. By the way the industrial revolution came right on the back of the "age of reason", which is the period in time when western civilisation started to really value critical thinking, holding no ideas as sacred, and science as we know it today really took off. The time of Newton. The time of philosophers like Locke and Voltaire. We moved away from dogma in a big way during that time, and it led to the technological advancements that are still happening today.


you say an atheist society wasn't possible and then talk about the "age of reason" where we supposedly moved away from dogma. wat?

also, there were plenty of scientific developments during the so-called "dark ages", but the myth that religion (specifically catholicism) suppressed free thought during the middle ages was propagated by enlightenment thinkers who wanted to believe the same shit that you do, to believe that they were "enlightened" and that they were part of a historically significant intellectual movement.

crispybits wrote:You're right about republics, that was a bad example, but the underlying point was that nothing has ever been done until it's done. We are all free to make arguments why something that has never been done will succeed or fail, why it will cause problem X or solve problem Y in society, but in the end the only way to really know if something will work is to let it happen. This is a fundamental part of society changing over time to embrace new ideas and new philosophies. You state that moral decay is inevitable if we get rid of religion, but I'm not saying we get rid of religion, I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.


that would have basically the same effect as removing religion... maybe even a worse effect, since people will actively try to shun religious morals.

crispybits wrote:Finally, I didn't say that atheism is the default position of every person, but you're right it is. Imagine a nursery school full of children whose parents have never mentioned religion to them. Now can you point out the christian kid, or the muslim kid, or the buddhist kid. Not the child with christian or muslim or buddhist parents, but the child who has developed a faith in a certain religious philosophy. Religion is something we are taught, we are all born without it. Spirituality, the belief in some vague higher power, may well be innate, but religions are not.

What I actually said was that the default position of logical atheism is that we should not believe a claim until we see evidence for that claim. It's actually closer to agnosticism in that regrd than strong atheism, but with the proviso that we start in the position of nothing is true and then proceed to build our views of the world based on the evidence shown for us, so the correct position is not to believe any God-myths until such time as evidence is provided for them.


young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 12:17 pm

john9blue wrote:
crispybits wrote:I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.


that would have basically the same effect as removing religion... maybe even a worse effect, since people will actively try to shun religious morals.


I had a longer reply that dealt with all of your points, and I'll post it if you want, just say, but this little gem right here, this is beautiful.

You are saying one of two things here:

(a) You believe that religion is not a strong enough philosophy to survive without child indoctrination by it's devotees supporting it.

(b) You believe that religion is not a strong enough philosophy to survive without secular control over people who do not agree with it.

Or is there a (c) that I missed?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:08 pm

john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 1:11 pm

@crispy: wat?

i think people should leave religion alone and let people join it or reject it if they want to.

where did you get those two options lol?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 1:13 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


T.N. is not atheism, since atheism is a position and T.N. is the lack of a position.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 1:17 pm

They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?

Also TN is a position if atheism is. TN states that we have no definition for God that makes sense. Atheism states that we have no evidence for a God. They're pretty similar, in fact atheism under those terms is probably the less strongly stated position, because even after you provide a definition you're still left with providing evidence.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:21 pm

john9blue wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


T.N. is not atheism, since atheism is a position and T.N. is the lack of a position.


By asserting that children are naturally atheists, no one is saying that they are anti-theists or take a position as such. You're misconstruing atheism with anti-theism. It's literally saying that they are without a deity and live as such, i.e. "without god," or, as you would say, T.N. Rather, T.N. is a subset of atheism. A square is a rectangle.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 1:24 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.


I think he just likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Like any of the participants in this thread or pretty much this whole forum.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:00 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
By asserting that children are naturally atheists, no one is saying that they are anti-theists or take a position as such. You're misconstruing atheism with anti-theism. It's literally saying that they are without a deity and live as such, i.e. "without god," or, as you would say, T.N. Rather, T.N. is a subset of atheism. A square is a rectangle.

-TG


atheism: "i don't think god exists"

antitheism: "i want people to stop believing in god"

T.N.: "what is god?"

does that make it more clear?

crispybits wrote:They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?

Also TN is a position if atheism is. TN states that we have no definition for God that makes sense. Atheism states that we have no evidence for a God. They're pretty similar, in fact atheism under those terms is probably the less strongly stated position, because even after you provide a definition you're still left with providing evidence.


to claim that something has no evidence, you have to clearly define that thing. you can't say "i don't know what this thing is, but there is no evidence for it". how would you know whether there was evidence if you didn't know what it was in the first place? the two positions are incompatible.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.


i don't think anyone's argument failed. i can't prove that atheism will have a negative effect on civilization, and he can't prove otherwise. i think the lack of successful atheist societies counts as proof, and he doesn't.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

crispybits wrote:They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?


you wanted our society to actively discourage people from becoming religious (make it "rated R" and keep it away). if we do that then people will not want anything to do with religious morals and may actively go against them because they are being encouraged to think that religion is seriously wrong.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

john9blue wrote:
crispybits wrote:As chang said, I didn't say schooling, but education. Education statrs off as learning by rote, you learn the times tables by repeating them back over and over again. As we get older that changes into understanding how to multiply and being able to do the actual calculations in our heads. As we progress higher and higher in the edcuation systems, free critical thinking is (or at least should be) more and more important, until you get to the PhD and post-docs who are responsible for coming up with brand new ideas about the world and then going about finding tests to see if those ideas are true or false. More education = a more critically trained mind = more atheism.


for many people, it's more like:

more education = more indoctrination = you think you know better than everyone else = atheism (or modern liberalism, there's a reason these two are correlated)

if you talk to people who are intelligent beyond just book-smart memorization skills, you'll find that most of them are agnostic and they lean libertarian (which is far removed from the above). these are the people that realize how much they don't know and are perfectly fine with leaving others alone, instead of forcing others to believe what they believe.


Actually most atheists can be cathegorized as agnostic atheists. The definition of agnosticism is that people don't know whether there is a a god or not. This is a statement most atheists agree with, but atheists still don't think that there is a god because of probability issues.

The only difference between agnostic atheists and pure agnostics(or whatever you call 'm) is that agnostic atheists are interested in the subject and pure agnostics aren't. Pure Agnostics are just indifferent towards the question whether or not a god exists. They haven't looked at the evidence as extensively and are thus unable to pick a side.

There is a human tendency to form an opinion about any subject the more he/she learns about it.

FYI, I don't know what hillbilly school you went to but in my religion classes the teacher held a weekly debate. People could out their opinions there and learn more about both christianism(no other religions were represented in my class) and atheism. This was the way we learned about the different ethical/religious/cultural/... conflicts that exist in current day society. So stating that education is indoctrination is either a lie or a generalization of a school that is biased.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 2:08 pm

atheism

a (without or lacking) + theism (belief in deity)= without a belief in deity= "what is god?"

I'm pretty sure you yourself have brought up in the past the difference between weak and strong atheism. Just because it's not an active rejection of deism doesn't mean it's not atheism.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:16 pm

waauw wrote:
Actually most atheists can be cathegorized as agnostic atheists. The definition of agnosticism is that people don't know whether there is a a god or not. This is a statement most atheists agree with, but atheists still don't think that there is a god because of probability issues.

The only difference between agnostic atheists and pure agnostics(or whatever you call 'm) is that agnostic atheists are interested in the subject and pure agnostics aren't. Pure Agnostics are just indifferent towards the question whether or not a god exists. They haven't looked at the evidence as extensively and are thus unable to pick a side.

There is a human tendency to form an opinion about any subject the more they learn about it.


i've had this discussion before... the short version is that agnosticism is a matter of degree. christians also realize that they don't KNOW if god exists or not, since a central tenet of christianity is that you have to have faith that god exists. this means that christians are also agnostic, but not fully. and they also differ in their degree of agnosticism.

a/theism just refers to whether your strong or weak belief is in god or no god... it's binary
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Thu May 16, 2013 2:17 pm

john9blue wrote:you say an atheist society wasn't possible and then talk about the "age of reason" where we supposedly moved away from dogma. wat?

also, there were plenty of scientific developments during the so-called "dark ages", but the myth that religion (specifically catholicism) suppressed free thought during the middle ages was propagated by enlightenment thinkers who wanted to believe the same shit that you do, to believe that they were "enlightened" and that they were part of a historically significant intellectual movement.


I think you need to get some facts straight. Yes there were some advances in the middle ages, but they weren't as world changing as those made during the age of enlightenment. I would like to refference you to the work for example Voltaire(propagated republicanism and democracy in a world governed by monarchs) and Sir Isaac Newton(the father of modern physics). The age of enlightenment was about propagating to people to be more critical, to learn more about science and logic and to promote liberalism.

Also if you think religion didn't suppress science, you should do some research about Galileo.
Last edited by waauw on Thu May 16, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 2:25 pm

john9blue wrote:
crispybits wrote:They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?


you wanted our society to actively discourage people from becoming religious (make it "rated R" and keep it away). if we do that then people will not want anything to do with religious morals and may actively go against them because they are being encouraged to think that religion is seriously wrong.


I said no such thing about discouraging. I personally want to discourage people from taking up any religion unless they can provide evidence, but I don't want any such rules put in place by society. Freedom of religion is a good thing.

Have you thought that the main problems people have with religion are the way it treats children (not a catholic church dig) and the way it tries to run everyone's lives, not just the lives of believers? Do you not think that if religion stopped doing the two things that secular people have the most problems with then activism against religion would decrease, not increase?

Nobody is suggesting religion is "wrong", just that there's a place and a time for it and that's in voluntary exchanges between adults who are free to follow any religion they like as long as they don't force their religious rules on people that don't believe the same things they do. Or they can come up with evidence. Either way is fine by me.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Thu May 16, 2013 2:34 pm

john9blue wrote:
waauw wrote:
Actually most atheists can be cathegorized as agnostic atheists. The definition of agnosticism is that people don't know whether there is a a god or not. This is a statement most atheists agree with, but atheists still don't think that there is a god because of probability issues.

The only difference between agnostic atheists and pure agnostics(or whatever you call 'm) is that agnostic atheists are interested in the subject and pure agnostics aren't. Pure Agnostics are just indifferent towards the question whether or not a god exists. They haven't looked at the evidence as extensively and are thus unable to pick a side.

There is a human tendency to form an opinion about any subject the more they learn about it.


i've had this discussion before... the short version is that agnosticism is a matter of degree. christians also realize that they don't KNOW if god exists or not, since a central tenet of christianity is that you have to have faith that god exists. this means that christians are also agnostic, but not fully. and they also differ in their degree of agnosticism.

a/theism just refers to whether your strong or weak belief is in god or no god... it's binary


The problem I'm having is that you said atheism is a form of indoctrination. This is the reason why I wanted to mention that atheism does not claim to know about a divine existence. In indoctrination people do make it sound like they KNOW the answer.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 2:47 pm

waauw wrote:
john9blue wrote:
waauw wrote:
Actually most atheists can be cathegorized as agnostic atheists. The definition of agnosticism is that people don't know whether there is a a god or not. This is a statement most atheists agree with, but atheists still don't think that there is a god because of probability issues.

The only difference between agnostic atheists and pure agnostics(or whatever you call 'm) is that agnostic atheists are interested in the subject and pure agnostics aren't. Pure Agnostics are just indifferent towards the question whether or not a god exists. They haven't looked at the evidence as extensively and are thus unable to pick a side.

There is a human tendency to form an opinion about any subject the more they learn about it.


i've had this discussion before... the short version is that agnosticism is a matter of degree. christians also realize that they don't KNOW if god exists or not, since a central tenet of christianity is that you have to have faith that god exists. this means that christians are also agnostic, but not fully. and they also differ in their degree of agnosticism.

a/theism just refers to whether your strong or weak belief is in god or no god... it's binary


The problem I'm having is that you said atheism is a form of indoctrination. This is the reason why I wanted to mention that atheism does not claim to know about a divine existence. In indoctrination people do make it sound like they KNOW the answer.


Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. (Wikipedia)

Atheists are (with the exception of now rare strong atheism) told that the whole point is to think critically about claims made about religious subjects. Seems your claims fall down fairly quickly J9B, but I am constantly amazed by how many brainwashed religious people seem to think that an education in critical thinking is the same as an indoctrination into a dogmatic philosophy. It's like they never got the basic meanings of words explained to them. Usually it's those same people who cry religious persecution and claim they are being victimised when anyone dares criticise any aspect of their personal religious philosophy.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 3:13 pm

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.


i don't think anyone's argument failed. i can't prove that atheism will have a negative effect on civilization, and he can't prove otherwise. i think the lack of successful atheist societies counts as proof, and he doesn't.


Y'all two are mired in the problem of demonstrating a counterfactual. It's impossible, so a better approach is to argue about the key elements which account for greater success* in atheist societies** compared to theist societies***.,

*what are the criteria for success?
**what exactly is an atheist society? Why not include atheist groups?
***(same questions about the nefarious use of the word 'society').

My question: What kind of institutions (rules of the game) does each group use which in turn leads to greater benefits (or success) for a given group or particular region?


In my opinion, answering the above would better reveal an answer. Without answering those questions, then progress won't be attained.


(For example, Max Weber had an article about the Protestant work ethic. He argued that because the Protestants valued labor/individual responsibility due to their particular religious system, then they performed better than Catholics and those groups without such a religiously enforced work ethic). That's one way of doing that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu May 16, 2013 3:14 pm

john9blue wrote:to claim that something has no evidence, you have to clearly define that thing. you can't say "i don't know what this thing is, but there is no evidence for it". how would you know whether there was evidence if you didn't know what it was in the first place? the two positions are incompatible.



In that case, you can't prove there's no evidence for blimfjog.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 3:22 pm

john9blue wrote:you say an atheist society wasn't possible and then talk about the "age of reason" where we supposedly moved away from dogma. wat?

also, there were plenty of scientific developments during the so-called "dark ages", but the myth that religion (specifically catholicism) suppressed free thought during the middle ages was propagated by enlightenment thinkers who wanted to believe the same shit that you do, to believe that they were "enlightened" and that they were part of a historically significant intellectual movement.


Well, j9b, it's not a myth. If you read about the history of political thought, and peruse the "Great Thinkers'" letters and works, you can see the fear/anxiety in (1) debasing religion from ethics or explanations on human behavior (i.e. no more "cuz God" arguments), (2) a general lip-service to the religious institutions (Hobbes, who was most likely an atheist, yet wrote publicly like a theist), (3) and the general delay in shifting from "cuz God" arguments to more "humanitarian" arguments.

That delay, I'd attribute, to the political power exercised by the Church, which sought to suppress any heretical/blasphemous thought. Those times were not at all a myth. Removing religion from reason was a huge step for humanity, and the Church did not at all appreciate it.

Hell, it took as long as J.S. Mill to write a proper defense of freedom of thought and expression.

I still don't see how the Enlightenment period was another age of dogma--relative to the actual dogma of the Catholic Church and its thinkers.
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