Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 2:55 am

Neither. I'm forward for Freedom.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu May 16, 2013 3:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Neither. I'm forward for Freedom.

'Cause you don't belong to me and I don't belong to you?

Yeah yeah yeah!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 5:20 am

john9blue wrote:this paragraph is a giant jumbled mess of cause and effect. you really thing people become atheists because of their schooling? i can understand how learning about, say, evolution can make someone more likely to be an atheist, but schooling in general has little to no effect on someone's core beliefs.


As chang said, I didn't say schooling, but education. Education statrs off as learning by rote, you learn the times tables by repeating them back over and over again. As we get older that changes into understanding how to multiply and being able to do the actual calculations in our heads. As we progress higher and higher in the edcuation systems, free critical thinking is (or at least should be) more and more important, until you get to the PhD and post-docs who are responsible for coming up with brand new ideas about the world and then going about finding tests to see if those ideas are true or false. More education = a more critically trained mind = more atheism.

john9blue wrote:industrialization wasn't even POSSIBLE until 250 years ago. that's a pretty bad example.

republics and democracies are way older than that. and the difference between those and atheism is that in one case, you are adding something, and in the other, you are taking something away.

question: if atheism is the "default position" of every person, and atheism is good for society, then why does every successful society have tons of religious people? the evidence doesn't match your theory.


An atheist society wasn't even possible until now either. For hundreds of years a public declaration of atheism had you at risk of being arrested, tortured and killed because the church and the state went so closely hand in hand and dissent was much more stamped down on than it is now. By the way the industrial revolution came right on the back of the "age of reason", which is the period in time when western civilisation started to really value critical thinking, holding no ideas as sacred, and science as we know it today really took off. The time of Newton. The time of philosophers like Locke and Voltaire. We moved away from dogma in a big way during that time, and it led to the technological advancements that are still happening today.

You're right about republics, that was a bad example, but the underlying point was that nothing has ever been done until it's done. We are all free to make arguments why something that has never been done will succeed or fail, why it will cause problem X or solve problem Y in society, but in the end the only way to really know if something will work is to let it happen. This is a fundamental part of society changing over time to embrace new ideas and new philosophies. You state that moral decay is inevitable if we get rid of religion, but I'm not saying we get rid of religion, I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.

Finally, I didn't say that atheism is the default position of every person, but you're right it is. Imagine a nursery school full of children whose parents have never mentioned religion to them. Now can you point out the christian kid, or the muslim kid, or the buddhist kid. Not the child with christian or muslim or buddhist parents, but the child who has developed a faith in a certain religious philosophy. Religion is something we are taught, we are all born without it. Spirituality, the belief in some vague higher power, may well be innate, but religions are not.

What I actually said was that the default position of logical atheism is that we should not believe a claim until we see evidence for that claim. It's actually closer to agnosticism in that regrd than strong atheism, but with the proviso that we start in the position of nothing is true and then proceed to build our views of the world based on the evidence shown for us, so the correct position is not to believe any God-myths until such time as evidence is provided for them.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 11:09 am

crispybits wrote:As chang said, I didn't say schooling, but education. Education statrs off as learning by rote, you learn the times tables by repeating them back over and over again. As we get older that changes into understanding how to multiply and being able to do the actual calculations in our heads. As we progress higher and higher in the edcuation systems, free critical thinking is (or at least should be) more and more important, until you get to the PhD and post-docs who are responsible for coming up with brand new ideas about the world and then going about finding tests to see if those ideas are true or false. More education = a more critically trained mind = more atheism.


for many people, it's more like:

more education = more indoctrination = you think you know better than everyone else = atheism (or modern liberalism, there's a reason these two are correlated)

if you talk to people who are intelligent beyond just book-smart memorization skills, you'll find that most of them are agnostic and they lean libertarian (which is far removed from the above). these are the people that realize how much they don't know and are perfectly fine with leaving others alone, instead of forcing others to believe what they believe.

crispybits wrote:An atheist society wasn't even possible until now either. For hundreds of years a public declaration of atheism had you at risk of being arrested, tortured and killed because the church and the state went so closely hand in hand and dissent was much more stamped down on than it is now. By the way the industrial revolution came right on the back of the "age of reason", which is the period in time when western civilisation started to really value critical thinking, holding no ideas as sacred, and science as we know it today really took off. The time of Newton. The time of philosophers like Locke and Voltaire. We moved away from dogma in a big way during that time, and it led to the technological advancements that are still happening today.


you say an atheist society wasn't possible and then talk about the "age of reason" where we supposedly moved away from dogma. wat?

also, there were plenty of scientific developments during the so-called "dark ages", but the myth that religion (specifically catholicism) suppressed free thought during the middle ages was propagated by enlightenment thinkers who wanted to believe the same shit that you do, to believe that they were "enlightened" and that they were part of a historically significant intellectual movement.

crispybits wrote:You're right about republics, that was a bad example, but the underlying point was that nothing has ever been done until it's done. We are all free to make arguments why something that has never been done will succeed or fail, why it will cause problem X or solve problem Y in society, but in the end the only way to really know if something will work is to let it happen. This is a fundamental part of society changing over time to embrace new ideas and new philosophies. You state that moral decay is inevitable if we get rid of religion, but I'm not saying we get rid of religion, I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.


that would have basically the same effect as removing religion... maybe even a worse effect, since people will actively try to shun religious morals.

crispybits wrote:Finally, I didn't say that atheism is the default position of every person, but you're right it is. Imagine a nursery school full of children whose parents have never mentioned religion to them. Now can you point out the christian kid, or the muslim kid, or the buddhist kid. Not the child with christian or muslim or buddhist parents, but the child who has developed a faith in a certain religious philosophy. Religion is something we are taught, we are all born without it. Spirituality, the belief in some vague higher power, may well be innate, but religions are not.

What I actually said was that the default position of logical atheism is that we should not believe a claim until we see evidence for that claim. It's actually closer to agnosticism in that regrd than strong atheism, but with the proviso that we start in the position of nothing is true and then proceed to build our views of the world based on the evidence shown for us, so the correct position is not to believe any God-myths until such time as evidence is provided for them.


young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 12:17 pm

john9blue wrote:
crispybits wrote:I'm simply saying way make it rated R and we keep it as far away as possible from making any decisions for society as a whole.


that would have basically the same effect as removing religion... maybe even a worse effect, since people will actively try to shun religious morals.


I had a longer reply that dealt with all of your points, and I'll post it if you want, just say, but this little gem right here, this is beautiful.

You are saying one of two things here:

(a) You believe that religion is not a strong enough philosophy to survive without child indoctrination by it's devotees supporting it.

(b) You believe that religion is not a strong enough philosophy to survive without secular control over people who do not agree with it.

Or is there a (c) that I missed?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:08 pm

john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 1:11 pm

@crispy: wat?

i think people should leave religion alone and let people join it or reject it if they want to.

where did you get those two options lol?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 1:13 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


T.N. is not atheism, since atheism is a position and T.N. is the lack of a position.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 16, 2013 1:17 pm

They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?

Also TN is a position if atheism is. TN states that we have no definition for God that makes sense. Atheism states that we have no evidence for a God. They're pretty similar, in fact atheism under those terms is probably the less strongly stated position, because even after you provide a definition you're still left with providing evidence.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:21 pm

john9blue wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


T.N. is not atheism, since atheism is a position and T.N. is the lack of a position.


By asserting that children are naturally atheists, no one is saying that they are anti-theists or take a position as such. You're misconstruing atheism with anti-theism. It's literally saying that they are without a deity and live as such, i.e. "without god," or, as you would say, T.N. Rather, T.N. is a subset of atheism. A square is a rectangle.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 16, 2013 1:24 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
john wrote:young children are theological noncognitivists. the belief that they are "atheists" is another tenet of modern atheism that doesn't withstand scrutiny (not that most atheists will bother to give the claim any scrutiny)


ITT john still doesn't understand the etymology of atheism.

-TG


Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.


I think he just likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Like any of the participants in this thread or pretty much this whole forum.

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:00 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
By asserting that children are naturally atheists, no one is saying that they are anti-theists or take a position as such. You're misconstruing atheism with anti-theism. It's literally saying that they are without a deity and live as such, i.e. "without god," or, as you would say, T.N. Rather, T.N. is a subset of atheism. A square is a rectangle.

-TG


atheism: "i don't think god exists"

antitheism: "i want people to stop believing in god"

T.N.: "what is god?"

does that make it more clear?

crispybits wrote:They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?

Also TN is a position if atheism is. TN states that we have no definition for God that makes sense. Atheism states that we have no evidence for a God. They're pretty similar, in fact atheism under those terms is probably the less strongly stated position, because even after you provide a definition you're still left with providing evidence.


to claim that something has no evidence, you have to clearly define that thing. you can't say "i don't know what this thing is, but there is no evidence for it". how would you know whether there was evidence if you didn't know what it was in the first place? the two positions are incompatible.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Even worse, he doesn't seem to care to understand. He's had this position about religion being the moral fabric, and it failed earlier (from what I recall). He's not going to clarify himself ITT, and I doubt he'll take crispybits' positions into account, so ten months from now j9b will be back to say how atheism is the destroyer of civilization and blah blah blah.


i don't think anyone's argument failed. i can't prove that atheism will have a negative effect on civilization, and he can't prove otherwise. i think the lack of successful atheist societies counts as proof, and he doesn't.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

crispybits wrote:They're the two justifications I can think of why keeping religion to adults only and keeping it out of controlling people's lives would lead to "maybe a worse effect than removing religion". I said maybe there was something I don't understand there - you obviously think I've misinterpretted you somewhere, care to elaborate?


you wanted our society to actively discourage people from becoming religious (make it "rated R" and keep it away). if we do that then people will not want anything to do with religious morals and may actively go against them because they are being encouraged to think that religion is seriously wrong.
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