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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu May 23, 2013 3:16 pm

How do we tell which animals are of which "kind" if sometimes those within the same kind cannot interbreed?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Thu May 23, 2013 3:40 pm

crispybits wrote:How do we tell which animals are of which "kind" if sometimes those within the same kind cannot interbreed?

What are you asking?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Gillipig wrote:
crispybits wrote:How do we tell which animals are of which "kind" if sometimes those within the same kind cannot interbreed?

What are you asking?

He's responding to universalchiro's "kind" idea, back a few pages I think, Gilli.


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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Thu May 23, 2013 5:27 pm

universalchiro wrote:Great questions waauw, Let me tackle them one at a time:
1. if that very enzyme would mutate, as animals do in time, doesn't that mean the enzyme stops working? Or if I would rephrase this, doesn't that mean that evolution is the cause of animals not being able to crossbreed? Mutations are usually sterile, or lack physical attributes that a female would select for breeding. The female selects the male, if the male has mutations, she will not accept him. If the mutations are significant, the mother from birth will reject or kill the mutation. But usually the mutants are sterile. So the reality is the mother either kills the newborn mutant or rejects helpless newborn thereby it dies 100% of time. Or the adult mutant is not desired by adult female, so that she won't accept it's advances. Or the mutant is to weak to ward off the alpha male and can't spread it's mutant genes. But let's take your hypothetical scenario to the end: Let's say that the enzyme of a male kind mutates and can't dissolve the female ovum shell. Then that mutant kind dies off w/o offspring. Therefore, ending further mutations. This keeps the kinds the same.


Doesn't this work like gravity? If the resemblance is still close enough it'll oftentimes still work. It's like you said before, the further the distance in mutation, the less chance of reproduction. Hence the small changes due to mutations will spread. However in due time, spread over millenia, mutations will have gone so far that due to regional breeding, the spread of mutations betweed different regions will be different. This will thus result in new races of animals.

universalchiro wrote:2. The problem is in fact that to fully comprehend how animals functions, one ought to understand the entire DNA-sequence of the creature. However science hasn't gotten that far yet. We are still decades away from fully mapping our own DNA-sequence(and especially from having clear insights into them), let alone those of other animals. So why state that it is proof of there being a god if the basic building blocks of our body aren't even understood? In my honest opinion, the best we can do is say "I don't know". If the best people can say is, "I don't know", then why is Evolution is taught as fact, yet it's a conjecture, a best guess if you will. But here are some counter points to think about: We have mapped the human DNA sequence. Mapping animal DNA sequence is probably years away, not decades. But that doesn't matter. But see if this moves you: By your above statement we are in accord that the DNA structures of life is more vastly complex than thought possible. Life is so complex that life can reproduce and self heal, this is a complexity that still eludes us even as advanced we think we are. So evolution teaches that life spontaneously come into existence in a primordial pool of complex chemicals and amino acids and proteins. And that with enough time, the simple single cell that spontaneously formed became more complex and evolved into the complexities of today. Yet Physics, has laws that can't be violated. One of them is Entropy. This law says that all, everything, no exception, always, all life, all matter, all mass goes from order to disorder. The two are incompatible. And that's one area where evolutionist take a leap of faith and stop being science based and start being faith based.

It's illogical to think that matter and energy, since both have limited life spans and are not eternal, to take the leap of faith that both matter and energy have existed forever in eternity past. It's logical to say that an eternal God, has always been eternal.

Whenever we see even the simplest forms of design, we assume a designer. For example, archeologist see small rocks in a circle in a dig, and they'll say, "that's orderly, therefore, this is possible evidence that man organized this thousands of years ago. But when we get to complexities of life (ie mapping the DNA structures), we don't draw the same conclusion. Why? Because there is a fear of saying there is a God. For if there is a God, then we are accountable by His commandments.


My answers:
  • You do realise that even though things can go from order to disorder, it also goes the other way around. Chaos theory is one of the examples that states that order will always be created out of disorder. In other words, it's a circular neverending system of changes. And as far as I know this does support evolution as it is all about change.
  • Another mistake you made is stating that matter and energy have limited life spans. This is not true. According to the laws of thermodynamics energy(which is the building block of matter) can not be created nor destroyed in an isolated system. It can only be transformed. This seems to be the case as far as we know if we only regard our own universe. However the start of our universe and it's dynamics is one of the sciences that is the least advanced still. This is why the rational thing to say here is we think that... because of these evidences ... . However immediately thinking this proves god is irrational. You think that because we don't know something it must be God? This is the exact same attitude the Catholic church used to have in the middle ages and it didn't get us very far.
  • I didn't mean mapping animal DNA sequences as to know what molecule is where. What I meant was it'll still take us decades before we understand what each piece of our DNA does and what the possible consequences are(knowing the pieces doesn't per sé give you insight into the whole)
  • Yes archeologists assume designer when they see order, however they further examine it before making it a fact. In fact if they notice that it in fact was just pure coincidence then they will accept it(normally if they are decent archeologists). The problem with your god-theory is that when examining DNA we still haven't found any evidence of it being created by a God.

universalchiro wrote:3. Another point I'd like to bring to your attention is that if we do assume life on earth was created(just an assumption). What proves that we were created by a divine entity(I interpret it as all powerfull and all knowing). Why not believe we were created by aliens? Even if you got conclusive proof that animals were intelligently designed, you still have no proof of who did it? The Bible was written over a period of 3,000 years by 35 different authors. The Bible describes the earth being a sphere in Isaiah 40 in 650BC way before mankind new the earth was a sphere. The Psalms talk about the Sun drags the planets across the galaxies 1,000's of years before mankind figured out that the earth is not the center of our solar system. There 300+ prophecies regarding Jesus alone that were written 500 years before he was born that were fulled. So those writers claimed God inspired them and what they wrote came true, so there is something beyond human ability in the Bible. All the archeology discoveries corroborates what the Bible discussed in history. The Bible discussed hygiene and dietary laws 1000yrs before science discovered germ theory and sanitation concepts. The Bible discusses the hydrological cycle 1000's of years before science discerned how. So the Bible has shown knowledge beyond human abilities to know those things. The Bible even foretold of humans believing that they evolved from of sources of life. Jeremiah 2: “As a thief is disgraced when he is caught, so the people are disgraced- they, their kings and their officials, their priests and their prophets. 27 They say to wood, ‘You are my father,’ and to stone, ‘You gave me birth.’ They have turned their backs to Me and not their faces;
yet when they are in trouble, they say, ‘Come and save us!’ 28 Where then are the gods you made for yourselves?
Let them come if they can save you when you are in trouble!".. Written 2,500 years before Darwin.

Jesus believed in a literal Adam and Eve and so did all the other writers in the Bible. What options do we have if the Genesis account of creation is wrong and evolution is correct? Since it was written that Jesus knew all things, then either Jesus didn't know there were errors in the Genesis creation account. Then Jesus couldn't be God in the flesh and Jesus was a fraud a charlatan. If Jesus knew there were errors in the Genesis creation account, but covered them up, then Jesus is not the savior, he is the Devil. The other option is Jesus was correct and the Genesis creation account is His own testimony of what He did with His Father in the beginning.


The Bible is no conclusive evidence. Many of the core stories of the Bible and by that I mean both old and new testament are derivative from stories from older civilizations and their stories. However it has been proven that changes in the story have occured. The furthest back you can go with the stories is ancient sumeria, the civilization who according to modern history invented writing. And we don't even know whether these stories might have dated back even before writing was invented. So why believe in the Bible when the stories of ancient Sumeria was closer to the original stories.

Another point I'd like to remark is that people often describe what they don't know as a God. In other words, what if aliens did exists and come to earth, changed things here etc. ? In this case it is very plausible that human kind might have worshiped them because of their knowledge and power. People might have even seen it as endless power and knowledge as it just exceeded their own knowledge and power by too far a distance. This same story can be made if we suppose the legend of Atlantis was entirely true. In fact there is a lot of proof that there might have been highly advanced societies even before ancient sumeria.

Now I'm not saying we were created by aliens or atlantians, but there have been many examples in history that people thought certain happenings were divine, when there actually were perfectly logical explanations for them. A good example of this is the first time the spanish got to the americas.

Lastly the fact that the Bible might have some facts written into it, does not prove it is entirely true. If I write a fictional novel about a family living in current times, this story will most probably contain a lot of facts of how life is today(for example existence of a car). This does not however prove that the characters and the story are real. Additionally keep in mind that many of the facts that might be written down in the Bible were also written down by the egyptians, Mayans, Hindu's, etc. These civilizations who predated the writing of the Bible also had vast knowledge of astronomy and several other sciences. Their knowledge was even vaster than what the Bible talks of. It is thus plausible to think the writers of the old testament just picked up a few things from these civilizations.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri May 24, 2013 11:17 am

Without wanting to distract from waauw and universalchiro's discussion (and that's one advantage of forum style conversations is that we can have 2 or 3 conversations running concurrently) I have a question for the religious people reading.

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Fri May 24, 2013 2:26 pm

crispybits wrote:Dr Lawrence,

How do you define separate kinds? By your posts I am forced to conclude that you mean that kinds are groupings of animals that cannot interbreed, say horses, dogs, cats, rodents, etc are all "kinds" of animal. The test (one of them, at least) of whether an animal is of the same kind as another animal is whether or not the sperm of that animal will successfully fertilise the egg of the other animal. If the two animals cannot interbreed then does this mean they are definitely different kinds of animal, or are there additional criteria and the failure of interbreeding is just one indicator amongst others? If there are other factors, please could you explain what they are.

In order to accept your evidence for God, I need to make sure I understand it. I could be operating under a different definition for "kind" than you are.

Dear crispybits,
My definition of "kinds" is not set in stone. Why? I'm not the one who determined what "kinds" are. I'm not the one who determined the boundaries of "kinds". God did. Please remember to broaden the use of "kinds" to include birds, fish, grass, plants, trees, bugs, insects, etc. Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, 'Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind... Vs20 Then God said, 'Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.' God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.... Vs 25 God made the beast of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind..."

For me "kinds" is not limited to if fertilization can or can't occur. For Great Dane female won't have offspring from a tea cup Maltes. Yet both are the same "Kind": Dog. So fertilization is one of many factors. The others would include hormone production of the endocrine and exocrine systems. For the hormone production from the Pituitary gland will cause desire and readiness of the male and female for copulation. Another is appetite: I can't think of an example of an herbivore mating with a carnivore. Another separation of "kind" is habitat. The dividing line of whether a creature lives in water, or desert, or mountains or ice, or tropical region is a distinction of "kind". Also mode of movement: There are no examples of bipedal creature mating with a quadripod or a creature that has no legs. Another example skin: Scales Vs exoskeleton Vs feathers Vs etc.... Another is nurturing process for newborns: Marsupials have a pouch for their young to grow on a hidden teat, Birds have shell that provides nutrition during the embryonic phase, butterflies have a cocoon, mammals produce milk for their young, etc.... Another distinction of Kind is sleeping patterns: for some creatures are nocturnal and would sleep during the day and vice versa. Another distinction of Kind is how they gain nutrition: For plants use photosynthesis, some have 1 stomach, some 2 stomachs.

So a small list (but not limited to) of distinction that help to define "kind" is:
1. Ovum
2. Sperm
3. Capitulate Enzyme for dissolving ovum
4. skin
5. size
6. diet
7. mode of transporation
8. location
9. birthing process
10. rearing process
11. sleep process
12. source of heating body
13. source of gaining energy.
14. This list just keeps going, I'm not God and it may be fully beyond my abilities to know in full beyond the obvious that we can see, feel, observe, test.

Please keep in mind the the classification of species by mankind is created by mankind and though it's a great source of information and helpful, it is unlikely to match up with God's definition of "kind".

I hope this answers your question.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 24, 2013 2:32 pm

crispybits wrote:Without wanting to distract from waauw and universalchiro's discussion (and that's one advantage of forum style conversations is that we can have 2 or 3 conversations running concurrently) I have a question for the religious people reading.

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?


You seem to have established that the divine mind is male. I'm going to take a wild leap here and guess that you're male too.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Fri May 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Symmetry wrote:
crispybits wrote:Without wanting to distract from waauw and universalchiro's discussion (and that's one advantage of forum style conversations is that we can have 2 or 3 conversations running concurrently) I have a question for the religious people reading.

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?


You seem to have established that the divine mind is male. I'm going to take a wild leap here and guess that you're male too.


I'm not sure about english, but in many languages if there is doubt about whether the person is male or female or when you're talking about a group containing both genders, you address the person or group as if he were a male.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 24, 2013 2:47 pm

waauw wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
crispybits wrote:Without wanting to distract from waauw and universalchiro's discussion (and that's one advantage of forum style conversations is that we can have 2 or 3 conversations running concurrently) I have a question for the religious people reading.

Are you "searching for God" or have you "found God"? By which I mean are you still trying to come to terms with and understand the nuances and subtleties of the divine mind, or have you got it figured out and do you now know exactly what it is God is saying to us in whatever force of nature or holy book or whatever you attribute to Him?


You seem to have established that the divine mind is male. I'm going to take a wild leap here and guess that you're male too.


I'm not sure about english, but in many languages if there is doubt about whether the person is male or female or when you're talking about a group containing both genders, you address the person or group as if he were a male.


I would say that it's a cultural thing rather than a linguistic rule. Which was kind of my point.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Fri May 24, 2013 2:58 pm

waauw wrote:
universalchiro wrote:Great questions waauw, Let me tackle them one at a time:
1. if that very enzyme would mutate, as animals do in time, doesn't that mean the enzyme stops working? Or if I would rephrase this, doesn't that mean that evolution is the cause of animals not being able to crossbreed? Mutations are usually sterile, or lack physical attributes that a female would select for breeding. The female selects the male, if the male has mutations, she will not accept him. If the mutations are significant, the mother from birth will reject or kill the mutation. But usually the mutants are sterile. So the reality is the mother either kills the newborn mutant or rejects helpless newborn thereby it dies 100% of time. Or the adult mutant is not desired by adult female, so that she won't accept it's advances. Or the mutant is to weak to ward off the alpha male and can't spread it's mutant genes. But let's take your hypothetical scenario to the end: Let's say that the enzyme of a male kind mutates and can't dissolve the female ovum shell. Then that mutant kind dies off w/o offspring. Therefore, ending further mutations. This keeps the kinds the same.


Doesn't this work like gravity? If the resemblance is still close enough it'll oftentimes still work. It's like you said before, the further the distance in mutation, the less chance of reproduction. Hence the small changes due to mutations will spread. However in due time, spread over millenia, mutations will have gone so far that due to regional breeding, the spread of mutations betweed different regions will be different. This will thus result in new races of animals.

universalchiro wrote:2. The problem is in fact that to fully comprehend how animals functions, one ought to understand the entire DNA-sequence of the creature. However science hasn't gotten that far yet. We are still decades away from fully mapping our own DNA-sequence(and especially from having clear insights into them), let alone those of other animals. So why state that it is proof of there being a god if the basic building blocks of our body aren't even understood? In my honest opinion, the best we can do is say "I don't know". If the best people can say is, "I don't know", then why is Evolution is taught as fact, yet it's a conjecture, a best guess if you will. But here are some counter points to think about: We have mapped the human DNA sequence. Mapping animal DNA sequence is probably years away, not decades. But that doesn't matter. But see if this moves you: By your above statement we are in accord that the DNA structures of life is more vastly complex than thought possible. Life is so complex that life can reproduce and self heal, this is a complexity that still eludes us even as advanced we think we are. So evolution teaches that life spontaneously come into existence in a primordial pool of complex chemicals and amino acids and proteins. And that with enough time, the simple single cell that spontaneously formed became more complex and evolved into the complexities of today. Yet Physics, has laws that can't be violated. One of them is Entropy. This law says that all, everything, no exception, always, all life, all matter, all mass goes from order to disorder. The two are incompatible. And that's one area where evolutionist take a leap of faith and stop being science based and start being faith based.

It's illogical to think that matter and energy, since both have limited life spans and are not eternal, to take the leap of faith that both matter and energy have existed forever in eternity past. It's logical to say that an eternal God, has always been eternal.

Whenever we see even the simplest forms of design, we assume a designer. For example, archeologist see small rocks in a circle in a dig, and they'll say, "that's orderly, therefore, this is possible evidence that man organized this thousands of years ago. But when we get to complexities of life (ie mapping the DNA structures), we don't draw the same conclusion. Why? Because there is a fear of saying there is a God. For if there is a God, then we are accountable by His commandments.


My answers:
  • You do realise that even though things can go from order to disorder, it also goes the other way around. Chaos theory is one of the examples that states that order will always be created out of disorder. In other words, it's a circular neverending system of changes. And as far as I know this does support evolution as it is all about change.
  • Another mistake you made is stating that matter and energy have limited life spans. This is not true. According to the laws of thermodynamics energy(which is the building block of matter) can not be created nor destroyed in an isolated system. It can only be transformed. This seems to be the case as far as we know if we only regard our own universe. However the start of our universe and it's dynamics is one of the sciences that is the least advanced still. This is why the rational thing to say here is we think that... because of these evidences ... . However immediately thinking this proves god is irrational. You think that because we don't know something it must be God? This is the exact same attitude the Catholic church used to have in the middle ages and it didn't get us very far.
  • I didn't mean mapping animal DNA sequences as to know what molecule is where. What I meant was it'll still take us decades before we understand what each piece of our DNA does and what the possible consequences are(knowing the pieces doesn't per sé give you insight into the whole)
  • Yes archeologists assume designer when they see order, however they further examine it before making it a fact. In fact if they notice that it in fact was just pure coincidence then they will accept it(normally if they are decent archeologists). The problem with your god-theory is that when examining DNA we still haven't found any evidence of it being created by a God.

universalchiro wrote:3. Another point I'd like to bring to your attention is that if we do assume life on earth was created(just an assumption). What proves that we were created by a divine entity(I interpret it as all powerfull and all knowing). Why not believe we were created by aliens? Even if you got conclusive proof that animals were intelligently designed, you still have no proof of who did it? The Bible was written over a period of 3,000 years by 35 different authors. The Bible describes the earth being a sphere in Isaiah 40 in 650BC way before mankind new the earth was a sphere. The Psalms talk about the Sun drags the planets across the galaxies 1,000's of years before mankind figured out that the earth is not the center of our solar system. There 300+ prophecies regarding Jesus alone that were written 500 years before he was born that were fulled. So those writers claimed God inspired them and what they wrote came true, so there is something beyond human ability in the Bible. All the archeology discoveries corroborates what the Bible discussed in history. The Bible discussed hygiene and dietary laws 1000yrs before science discovered germ theory and sanitation concepts. The Bible discusses the hydrological cycle 1000's of years before science discerned how. So the Bible has shown knowledge beyond human abilities to know those things. The Bible even foretold of humans believing that they evolved from of sources of life. Jeremiah 2: “As a thief is disgraced when he is caught, so the people are disgraced- they, their kings and their officials, their priests and their prophets. 27 They say to wood, ‘You are my father,’ and to stone, ‘You gave me birth.’ They have turned their backs to Me and not their faces;
yet when they are in trouble, they say, ‘Come and save us!’ 28 Where then are the gods you made for yourselves?
Let them come if they can save you when you are in trouble!".. Written 2,500 years before Darwin.

Jesus believed in a literal Adam and Eve and so did all the other writers in the Bible. What options do we have if the Genesis account of creation is wrong and evolution is correct? Since it was written that Jesus knew all things, then either Jesus didn't know there were errors in the Genesis creation account. Then Jesus couldn't be God in the flesh and Jesus was a fraud a charlatan. If Jesus knew there were errors in the Genesis creation account, but covered them up, then Jesus is not the savior, he is the Devil. The other option is Jesus was correct and the Genesis creation account is His own testimony of what He did with His Father in the beginning.


The Bible is no conclusive evidence. Many of the core stories of the Bible and by that I mean both old and new testament are derivative from stories from older civilizations and their stories. However it has been proven that changes in the story have occured. The furthest back you can go with the stories is ancient sumeria, the civilization who according to modern history invented writing. And we don't even know whether these stories might have dated back even before writing was invented. So why believe in the Bible when the stories of ancient Sumeria was closer to the original stories.

Another point I'd like to remark is that people often describe what they don't know as a God. In other words, what if aliens did exists and come to earth, changed things here etc. ? In this case it is very plausible that human kind might have worshiped them because of their knowledge and power. People might have even seen it as endless power and knowledge as it just exceeded their own knowledge and power by too far a distance. This same story can be made if we suppose the legend of Atlantis was entirely true. In fact there is a lot of proof that there might have been highly advanced societies even before ancient sumeria.

Now I'm not saying we were created by aliens or atlantians, but there have been many examples in history that people thought certain happenings were divine, when there actually were perfectly logical explanations for them. A good example of this is the first time the spanish got to the americas.

Lastly the fact that the Bible might have some facts written into it, does not prove it is entirely true. If I write a fictional novel about a family living in current times, this story will most probably contain a lot of facts of how life is today(for example existence of a car). This does not however prove that the characters and the story are real. Additionally keep in mind that many of the facts that might be written down in the Bible were also written down by the egyptians, Mayans, Hindu's, etc. These civilizations who predated the writing of the Bible also had vast knowledge of astronomy and several other sciences. Their knowledge was even vaster than what the Bible talks of. It is thus plausible to think the writers of the old testament just picked up a few things from these civilizations.


Waauw wrote, Doesn't this work like gravity? If the resemblance is still close enough it'll oftentimes still work. It's like you said before, the further the distance in mutation, the less chance of reproduction. Hence the small changes due to mutations will spread. However in due time, spread over millenia, mutations will have gone so far that due to regional breeding, the spread of mutations betweed different regions will be different. This will thus result in new races of animals.

This is a great idea that all the changes build on each other and given enough time, we wind up with new kinds, new creatures.
The ability of life on earth to adapt to changes in environment, diet, disease, trauma and famine is remarkable. But however far a kind of life adapts/evolves, it's still the same kind.

Take bacteria for example: Every so often humans have to create new vaccines, new antibiotics. Why? Bacteria build immunity to those drugs. How does this happen? Let's say someone is sick, they take the proper medication and kill off 90% of the bacteria that was causing their sickness. The 10% that remain, had a resistance to the medication and when they go through cellular mitosis and multiply. They will produce offspring that are equally resistant to the antibiotics. But in the end, they are still bacteria. And so too with every adaptation to changes in environment, diet, disease, etc.

No matter how far the adaptation goes, they are still the same kind. Even though they can't mate with their original kind they grew up with. For matting is not the only criteria of kind.

There is no evidence of the above quoted process of long periods of adaptation and settle changes building on prior changes that result in a different kind of creature.

Through selective breeding we can create new looking horses. Tall ones, strong ones, short ones, striped ones, patchy fur, etc. But they are still horses.

This is wear the rubber meets the road. For Evolutionist hang their hat on this hypothesis that given enough time, the changes build up on each other and from this conjecture, we hypothesize that humans came from apes, that came from simpler creatures, that came from simpler creatures, that eventually life came from dirt and watery and complex chemical pool. Which is life came from non-life. Which is spontaneous life. This doesn't occur, has been proven to not be acceptable science since Louis Pasteur.

That is a leap of faith to believe in the untestable, the unknowable. And that is what some people do and call it science. I'm fine if someone wants to believe that they evolved from apes, and dirt is their forefather, just don't call it science and teach it to children with our tax dollars.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 24, 2013 3:21 pm

universalchiro wrote:This is wear the rubber meets the road. For Evolutionist hang their hat on this hypothesis that given enough time, the changes build up on each other and from this conjecture, we hypothesize that humans came from apes, that came from simpler creatures, that came from simpler creatures, that eventually life came from dirt and watery and complex chemical pool. Which is life came from non-life. Which is spontaneous life. This doesn't occur, has been proven to not be acceptable science since Louis Pasteur.

That is a leap of faith to believe in the untestable, the unknowable. And that is what some people do and call it science. I'm fine if someone wants to believe that they evolved from apes, and dirt is their forefather, just don't call it science and teach it to children with our tax dollars.


What about mechanisms like insular dwarfism, where species who say at one point migrate to an island, get isolated, and become a wholly new independent species through various adaption and changes?

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Fri May 24, 2013 3:59 pm

waauw wrote:
universalchiro wrote:2. The problem is in fact that to fully comprehend how animals functions, one ought to understand the entire DNA-sequence of the creature. However science hasn't gotten that far yet. We are still decades away from fully mapping our own DNA-sequence(and especially from having clear insights into them), let alone those of other animals. So why state that it is proof of there being a god if the basic building blocks of our body aren't even understood? In my honest opinion, the best we can do is say "I don't know". If the best people can say is, "I don't know", then why is Evolution is taught as fact, yet it's a conjecture, a best guess if you will. But here are some counter points to think about: We have mapped the human DNA sequence. Mapping animal DNA sequence is probably years away, not decades. But that doesn't matter. But see if this moves you: By your above statement we are in accord that the DNA structures of life is more vastly complex than thought possible. Life is so complex that life can reproduce and self heal, this is a complexity that still eludes us even as advanced we think we are. So evolution teaches that life spontaneously come into existence in a primordial pool of complex chemicals and amino acids and proteins. And that with enough time, the simple single cell that spontaneously formed became more complex and evolved into the complexities of today. Yet Physics, has laws that can't be violated. One of them is Entropy. This law says that all, everything, no exception, always, all life, all matter, all mass goes from order to disorder. The two are incompatible. And that's one area where evolutionist take a leap of faith and stop being science based and start being faith based.

It's illogical to think that matter and energy, since both have limited life spans and are not eternal, to take the leap of faith that both matter and energy have existed forever in eternity past. It's logical to say that an eternal God, has always been eternal.

Whenever we see even the simplest forms of design, we assume a designer. For example, archeologist see small rocks in a circle in a dig, and they'll say, "that's orderly, therefore, this is possible evidence that man organized this thousands of years ago. But when we get to complexities of life (ie mapping the DNA structures), we don't draw the same conclusion. Why? Because there is a fear of saying there is a God. For if there is a God, then we are accountable by His commandments.


My (waauw) answers:
[list][*]You do realise that even though things can go from order to disorder, it also goes the other way around. Chaos theory is one of the examples that states that order will always be created out of disorder. In other words, it's a circular neverending system of changes. And as far as I know this does support evolution as it is all about change.

I agree, "Chaos theory" is just a theory. When something goes from disorder to order, there is intelligent design behind the order. I can't clean my room by throwing a bomb in my room. Just applying energy or force to something will not organize or make it orderly, the energy or force must always have a designer or something or someone intelligent directing the energy/force. Chaos THEORY has merit with randomness of situations, but not formation of life, nor shows order from disorder.

[*]Another mistake you made is stating that matter and energy have limited life spans. This is not true. According to the laws of thermodynamics energy(which is the building block of matter) can not be created nor destroyed in an isolated system. It can only be transformed. This seems to be the case as far as we know if we only regard our own universe. However the start of our universe and it's dynamics is one of the sciences that is the least advanced still. This is why the rational thing to say here is we think that... because of these evidences ... . However immediately thinking this proves god is irrational..


I fully know the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. I wasn't referencing a change in the sum. I was referencing the usefulness. For example: a tree burns to ashes. Energy is released into the atmosphere as heat. The sum is of energy and mass is unchanged, but try doing something with that pile of ash and released energy. That's all I was saying.

You think that because we don't know something it must be God? This is the exact same attitude the Catholic church used to have in the middle ages and it didn't get us very far
Well, the Inquisition period was an awful time for Catholic church and this corrupt situation led to the reformation in the 1580's with Martin Luther.

So I'm with you that irrational thinking can be very bad to society.

Also you incorrectly state my thinking. I don't think because we don't know something it must be God... For I base my belief that there is a God on several reasons.
1. The Bible. This series of books combined into one book shows that humans wrote about:
a. scientific things 500-1000 years before mankind knew about things like the earth was a sphere, was balanced rotating on an axis, that the earth revolved around the sun, that the sun's gravity pulled the planets of the solar system, etc
b. Historical things: The cities in the Bible have perfectly paralleled archeology.
c. Prophecies: There are 2,000 prophecies in the Bible that people wrote about events would happen before they happened. This is beyond human abilities.
d. Health: The Bible discusses sanitation and hygiene 1,000 years before germ theory of Louis Pasteur. The Bible talks about the division between ligaments/tendons/muscle before medicine mapped out the body. The Bible tells that life is in the blood 1000's of years before medicine discerns the same.
e. There is no error, no contradiction in God's word. Time tested.

2. Creation: I see the complexities of creation and know there is intelligence behind the order. It's illogical to say Chance caused all given enough time. That is a leap of faith. A non-provable, non-verifiable hypothesis. Which means it's faith based.

3. I see changes that occur in people that place there faith in God.
4. Jesus believed in an accurate and true word of God. And His resurrection from the dead has sealed the deal for me that there is a God and He created all.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri May 24, 2013 4:02 pm

universalchiro wrote: Time tested.

Mother approved?

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 24, 2013 4:12 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
universalchiro wrote: Time tested.

Mother approved?

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Louis Pasteur approved. He's the founder of science, but everything he discovered about the cosmos was totes in the Bible for firsties.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Fri May 24, 2013 4:31 pm

universalchiro wrote:
Waauw wrote, Doesn't this work like gravity? If the resemblance is still close enough it'll oftentimes still work. It's like you said before, the further the distance in mutation, the less chance of reproduction. Hence the small changes due to mutations will spread. However in due time, spread over millenia, mutations will have gone so far that due to regional breeding, the spread of mutations betweed different regions will be different. This will thus result in new races of animals.


This is a great idea that all the changes build on each other and given enough time, we wind up with new kinds, new creatures.
The ability of life on earth to adapt to changes in environment, diet, disease, trauma and famine is remarkable. But however far a kind of life adapts/evolves, it's still the same kind.

Take bacteria for example: Every so often humans have to create new vaccines, new antibiotics. Why? Bacteria build immunity to those drugs. How does this happen? Let's say someone is sick, they take the proper medication and kill off 90% of the bacteria that was causing their sickness. The 10% that remain, had a resistance to the medication and when they go through cellular mitosis and multiply. They will produce offspring that are equally resistant to the antibiotics. But in the end, they are still bacteria. And so too with every adaptation to changes in environment, diet, disease, etc.

No matter how far the adaptation goes, they are still the same kind. Even though they can't mate with their original kind they grew up with. For matting is not the only criteria of kind.

There is no evidence of the above quoted process of long periods of adaptation and settle changes building on prior changes that result in a different kind of creature.

Through selective breeding we can create new looking horses. Tall ones, strong ones, short ones, striped ones, patchy fur, etc. But they are still horses.

This is wear the rubber meets the road. For Evolutionist hang their hat on this hypothesis that given enough time, the changes build up on each other and from this conjecture, we hypothesize that humans came from apes, that came from simpler creatures, that came from simpler creatures, that eventually life came from dirt and watery and complex chemical pool. Which is life came from non-life. Which is spontaneous life. This doesn't occur, has been proven to not be acceptable science since Louis Pasteur.

That is a leap of faith to believe in the untestable, the unknowable. And that is what some people do and call it science. I'm fine if someone wants to believe that they evolved from apes, and dirt is their forefather, just don't call it science and teach it to children with our tax dollars.


Well all you have basically said is that evolution is just a theory and I agree with that. However I do think we should teach it to children, and that we should teach creationism. Kids need to learn these big theories and need to be able to choose. We don't want to teach our children to tearn a blind eye to these things. We gotta encourage them to do research about it themselves too.
btw, I also condemn those who teach evolutionism as a fact, even though I believe in it myself.

Now I'm not gonna start re-explaining evolutionism to you here cuz I don't think we're ever gonna get out of this discussion anyway. The only thing I'd like to remark still is that evolutionism doesn't require the spontaneous generation theory. Those are 2 very different theories. The fact is science just does not know how life got created. All we can say at the moment is that it is highly probable life on earth started somewhere else in outer space(panspermia).
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