Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:31 pm

oVo wrote:I'm not touching that chain. Maybe evidence of a life giving force
is a better term than proof. Only cold air, smoke or the sense of
touch or smell will physically reveal your breath.

Speaking of accepting things, why is the Bible deemed believable
while other texts are dismissed? Also, what makes Christian Church rituals
--like taking communion-- more acceptable than the spiritual practices of
other religions?

Objectively, without evidence or experience, probably nothing.

The difference people who follow Christianity find is that there is more evidence and proof, mostly in our personal lives. Some of that is certainly our biased upbringing, but not wholly. Others in other faiths certainly argue the same of their ideas. Theologians have held that in some cases, "different" faiths may really be the same, but using different terms. In truth, that might apply at some deeper level, though it certainly is not true on the surface. For example, even within the Christian church, Protestants and Roman Catholics very much disagree on several points, but will each generally acknowledge that the other can be faithful subjects of our Lord, Christ. I have heard it suggested that folks of other faiths may have similar deeper communality even if we superficially disagree. I have heard missionaries who, going to "new, unreached" cultures say that at some point they hear something like "oh, yeah... that is what you call it" when they are finally able to communicate about faith. (that is, they knew of the concepts bur described it differently). I have also heard great theologians recognize similarities between the deepest roots of faiths that seem very different on their surface.

Since much of human behavior is about specifics... whether to take our kids to that church or this other (or none), whether to be baptized or not, whether to eat this or that... etc, for humans, that deeper bit only really matters when it comes to saying that other people do or do not have the basic right to exist, to think as they do and so forth. Ultimately, none of us can know God's heart fully, none of us has his mind and so none of us is fully capable of judging the "true" faith and understanding of others. We can only operate on what we see and do. Knowing we are so limited is important.

That is why I say things like "I don't necessarily agree that homosexuality is OK, but I don't think I have the right to discriminate against them in any way" or "I don't want my kids to become Buddhist, but I do want them to understand the faith", etc, etc. Someone else merely existing and living, thinking as they do is not a fundamental harm to me. The harm is if I am to decide that I have the right to limit their thinking or speaking of their honest thoughts.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:39 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:I'm not touching that chain. Maybe evidence of a life giving force
is a better term than proof. Only cold air, smoke or the sense of
touch or smell will physically reveal your breath.

Speaking of accepting things, why is the Bible deemed believable
while other texts are dismissed? Also, what makes Christian Church rituals
--like taking communion-- more acceptable than the spiritual practices of
other religions?

Objectively, without evidence or experience, probably nothing.

The difference people who follow Christianity find is that there is more evidence and proof, mostly in our personal lives.


Any statistical evidence of this "more"? Or was this just an expression of you feeling superior?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:39 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:I'm not touching that chain. Maybe evidence of a life giving force
is a better term than proof. Only cold air, smoke or the sense of
touch or smell will physically reveal your breath.

Speaking of accepting things, why is the Bible deemed believable
while other texts are dismissed? Also, what makes Christian Church rituals
--like taking communion-- more acceptable than the spiritual practices of
other religions?

Objectively, without evidence or experience, probably nothing.

PLAYER57832 Comment
show


What makes the bible different from all other writing's, is it's prophecies and their preciseness and precision. Backed up by historical and archeological facts and findings. No other religious book can actually make this claim. The problem is that people don't study the Bible prophecies and see inconsistencies because they don't want the Bible to be true so they come up with all of these supposed inconsistencies where none exist.

Sometime a prophecy has a dual application and sometime it does not. Like the birth of Jesus being singular but the coming of the Lord has Dual application. To him who does not study this, it becomes confusing. By the way, the birth of Christ was the first coming of the Lord as a Lamb to the slaughter to pay for our sins.

    "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
    -Deuteronomy 18:22
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:23 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:What makes the bible different from all other writing's, is it's prophecies and their preciseness and precision.


You clearly are reading a different Bible than I've seen, since the Bible's prophesies are definitely NOT "precise"...they are vague, intentionally so in my opinion. Anyone who believes they are "precise" is taking events and molding them to the prediction.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:32 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:I'm not touching that chain. Maybe evidence of a life giving force
is a better term than proof. Only cold air, smoke or the sense of
touch or smell will physically reveal your breath.

Speaking of accepting things, why is the Bible deemed believable
while other texts are dismissed? Also, what makes Christian Church rituals
--like taking communion-- more acceptable than the spiritual practices of
other religions?

Objectively, without evidence or experience, probably nothing.

PLAYER57832 Comment
show


What makes the bible different from all other writing's, is it's prophecies and their preciseness and precision. Backed up by historical and archeological facts and findings. No other religious book can actually make this claim. The problem is that people don't study the Bible prophecies and see inconsistencies because they don't want the Bible to be true so they come up with all of these supposed inconsistencies where none exist.

Sometime a prophecy has a dual application and sometime it does not. Like the birth of Jesus being singular but the coming of the Lord has Dual application. To him who does not study this, it becomes confusing. By the way, the birth of Christ was the first coming of the Lord as a Lamb to the slaughter to pay for our sins.

    "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
    -Deuteronomy 18:22


Couple of questions here that I'd like you to answer then.

Psalms 34:10
The lions may grow weak and hungry,
but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

==> Yet I'm pretty sure there are a lot of poor christians who died of famine and poverty throughout the ages

Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

==> One wonders how he got around before. By hopping on his tail perhaps?
==> And snakes don't eat dust

Genesis 4:17
Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.
==> One would wonder where she came from, since the only other people alive were Adam and Eve.

Genesis 6:6
The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
==> If he is supposedly omniscient, how could he not have seen it coming?

Genesis 8:8-11
8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.
==> Olives don't grow in just 7 days
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Re: IIRe: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:45 pm

chang50 wrote: I'm struggling to understand this,is it possible to enter the kingom of heaven without sincerely accepting Jesus as one's lord and saviour,or not?
Let me help you chang50: This is a great question.
The Bible is clear, John 14:6 "Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." End of story.
And this hasn't ever changed. Even the Jews in the Old testament received eternal life via the same process. It's just Jesus was not plainly revealed to them, He was a mystery hidden until the New Testament. That's why "God" in the Hebrew is Elohiym (Strong's Concordance #430) is the plural form of God. And in Genesis 1:26 " Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" See all the plural personal pronouns? That's the trinity: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That's why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, for He claimed to walk and talk with Abraham and be the I AM that gave Moses the 10 Commandments in John 8: 56- " Your father Abraham rejoiced [p]to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple."

And That's why Jesus said, John 5:46 " For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me." This is a mystery revealed to you. You won't find Jesus, the name, in Genesis, but He is there, as Elohiym and I AM.

That's why even if someone has never heard of Jesus, nor the Bible, then creation is enough for them to believe in the creator and be saved. For all things were made through Jesus (Colossians 1:1-17) and nothing was made that wasn't made through Jesus (John 1:1-18).

So the harmony of the Bible has always been salvation exclusively through Jesus. And that is why Jesus said Matthew 10:33 "32 “Therefore everyone who [z]confesses Me before men, I will also confess [aa]him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever [ab]denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:50 pm

Strange how a simple yes/no question like "Is it possible to enter heaven without accepting Jesus as saviour?" can cause so many long winded replies all of which fail to give the simple yes/no the question needs for a proper answer...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:56 pm

crispybits wrote:Strange how a simple yes/no question like "Is it possible to enter heaven without accepting Jesus as saviour?" can cause so many long winded replies all of which fail to give the simple yes/no the question needs for a proper answer...


They're like those Jehovah witnesses. Allways wanting to make the conversation longer.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:19 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

If a man claims to have special powers and request people to follow him, it won't take the people long to figure out whether that person has special powers or not. And not many people would follow that man unless he first demonstrates special supernatural powers.

But let's say for argument sakes, that this man that wants men to follow him, in order to entice men to follow him, he offers wealth. He says, "Follow me and I will make you financially wealthier than any mogul. And not only that, follow me and I will get you the prettiest girls to be your concubines, as many as you wish or can handle. And not only that, I will give you fame. People will love you and want to hear you speak, touch your clothes and get your autograph. If a man offers massive money, gorgeous concubines and fame, not many men will be able to resist such an offer. Pretty much every man on earth that is not married would at least follow for a short while to see if what this person offers (money, women & fame) is true.

Even if that man takes away one of the gifts and say, "follow me, I can't get you fame, but I can get you all the money and prettiest women you want. Every man would still follow.

Even if that man takes away two gifts and says, "follow me, I can't get you fame, nor promise women, but I can get you all the money you could ever spend and with your money you could do as you wished". Every man would still follow.

But if that man says," Follow me, and doing so; you will not gain fame. In fact most people will dislike you. you will not gain wealth, in fact I don't even have a place to sleep. I won't grant you women to fulfill your sexual desires And you will take an oath of celibacy &/or monogamy if you are already married. Not many men would follow this man. But if this man further adds, "Also, I promise you persecution". Then no man on the planet would follow this man. Sure maybe a few lunatics would follow, for a day or so, but once they saw no miracles, no supernatural powers over nature, death, health, animals, food, then they would not follow either.

So the only way that disciples followed Jesus during His 3 year ministry, enduring no fame, enduring no wealth, enduring no hot chicks, but celibacy, is that they saw super natural wonders that no man can do. But then this Jesus is crucified. And the disciples scatter. Now nothing on the face of this earth would get men to follow this dead Jesus, when following Jesus resulted in no riches, no women, no fame & promised persecution (physical & verbal).

If Jesus had faked His death (not possible, to many people were eyewitnesses) or the disciples stole His dead body (which it was guarded by Roman soldiers with their life, so not possible), then, when the disciples were being tortured, they would have said, "Look, we aren't getting rich, we have no women, & we are being beaten for this dead dude named Jesus that has no powers? I'm out of here. They would have all sought self preservation. But the disciples endured tortuous death for Jesus. Why? Because they saw something so supernatural, something so beyond human ability, that they had to follow, even though following Jesus meant no money, no women, and persecution, they saw the risen Christ 3 days after His brutal death.

Logically, this deduction is substantial enough evidence of Jesus, that He defied normal human abilities and performed the supernatural wonders to get men to follow Him while He was alive, and follow Him after He died, for He rose from death of crucifixion.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:34 pm

And I ask once again: please give me non-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus. You can't claim "fulfilled prophecies" or how he had special properties that are convincing. if you've only got the Bible to back up your claims that the Bible is special.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:34 pm

crispybits wrote:Strange how a simple yes/no question like "Is it possible to enter heaven without accepting Jesus as saviour?" can cause so many long winded replies all of which fail to give the simple yes/no the question needs for a proper answer...


I believe the appropriate term is "tap dancing". We've got a couple of Fred Astaire's in here.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:36 pm

universalchiro wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

If a man claims to have special powers and request people to follow him, it won't take the people long to figure out whether that person has special powers or not. And not many people would follow that man unless he first demonstrates special supernatural powers.

But let's say for argument sakes, that this man that wants men to follow him, in order to entice men to follow him, he offers wealth. He says, "Follow me and I will make you financially wealthier than any mogul. And not only that, follow me and I will get you the prettiest girls to be your concubines, as many as you wish or can handle. And not only that, I will give you fame. People will love you and want to hear you speak, touch your clothes and get your autograph. If a man offers massive money, gorgeous concubines and fame, not many men will be able to resist such an offer. Pretty much every man on earth that is not married would at least follow for a short while to see if what this person offers (money, women & fame) is true.

Even if that man takes away one of the gifts and say, "follow me, I can't get you fame, but I can get you all the money and prettiest women you want. Every man would still follow.

Even if that man takes away two gifts and says, "follow me, I can't get you fame, nor promise women, but I can get you all the money you could ever spend and with your money you could do as you wished". Every man would still follow.

But if that man says," Follow me, and doing so; you will not gain fame. In fact most people will dislike you. you will not gain wealth, in fact I don't even have a place to sleep. I won't grant you women to fulfill your sexual desires And you will take an oath of celibacy &/or monogamy if you are already married. Not many men would follow this man. But if this man further adds, "Also, I promise you persecution". Then no man on the planet would follow this man. Sure maybe a few lunatics would follow, for a day or so, but once they saw no miracles, no supernatural powers over nature, death, health, animals, food, then they would not follow either.

So the only way that disciples followed Jesus during His 3 year ministry, enduring no fame, enduring no wealth, enduring no hot chicks, but celibacy, is that they saw super natural wonders that no man can do. But then this Jesus is crucified. And the disciples scatter. Now nothing on the face of this earth would get men to follow this dead Jesus, when following Jesus resulted in no riches, no women, no fame & promised persecution (physical & verbal).

If Jesus had faked His death (not possible, to many people were eyewitnesses) or the disciples stole His dead body (which it was guarded by Roman soldiers with their life, so not possible), then, when the disciples were being tortured, they would have said, "Look, we aren't getting rich, we have no women, & we are being beaten for this dead dude named Jesus that has no powers? I'm out of here. They would have all sought self preservation. But the disciples endured tortuous death for Jesus. Why? Because they saw something so supernatural, something so beyond human ability, that they had to follow, even though following Jesus meant no money, no women, and persecution, they saw the risen Christ 3 days after His brutal death.

Logically, this deduction is substantial enough evidence of Jesus, that He defied normal human abilities and performed the supernatural wonders to get men to follow Him while He was alive, and follow Him after He died, for He rose from death of crucifixion.


Wait...you're trying to put forward a hypothical as evidence?

As far as "too many eyewitnesses" goes, any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic. Perhaps Jesus was a visiting alien. I am NOT trying to make fun of you with that suggestion...why is that not a plausible statement?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:38 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:And I ask once again: please give me non-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus. You can't claim "fulfilled prophecies" or how he had special properties that are convincing. if you've only got the Bible to back up your claims that the Bible is special.


"Well God said it was."
"Where did he say that?"
"In the Bible."

It reminds me of those commercials about "they can't lie on the Internet".
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:21 pm

CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

First hand testimonial: Many times I've heard (not an audible voice) a voice not my own say, "slow down, there is a cop around the turn". So I slowed and sure enough there was a police officer with his radar gun.
Bible way before man knew things, the truth of health & diet way before doctors knew things, the historical accuracy, archeological accuracy, the uniform harmony in the Bible from cover to cover, though written by 35 authors spanning 2000+ years. The Bible alone is evidence enough of the proof of God. No book foretells of future kingdoms & people & events way before they happen. If someone really seeks truth, wants a purpose for life, the Bible holds the answers. It truly is a divine book from God.
Last edited by universalchiro on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby waauw on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:57 pm

universalchiro wrote:
CreepersWiener wrote:I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

First hand testimonial: Many times I've heard (not an audible voice) a voice not my own say, "slow down, there is a cop around the turn". So I slowed and sure enough there was a police officer with his radar gun.

In 2003 I had $250 to my name. With monthly bills for my new clinic mounting to $6,500/monthly. I didn't have enough money to pay the electric bill for the clinic. I was about to lose my clinic & home. But God provided: random attorneys would often call asking for a doctor that I had never heard of. When I would tell the attorney that I had never heard of that doctor, they would ask me to be their clients doctor & treat them. This happened so many times that from 2004 on I did not advertise at all. But yet now I am retired with the interest on investments triple what my monthly bills are. I've been retired for one year & have no plans of working again. This is in spite of losing $200,000 & wiped out in 2000 stock crash & $250,000 in the 2009 stock market crash.

I was blessed by the hand of God to retire wealthy at the age of 43. I backed into greatness via His mighty hand. A doctor that doesn't advertise should not thrive like I did. Too many attorneys called me by accident looking for another doctor & then they tell me to treat their client? They were directed by God.

As strong as a first hand testimonial is, that's not the burden of proof for me. The proof that holds true for me is the Bible: The fulfilled prophecies, the knowledge of science in the Bible way before man knew things, the truth of health & diet way before doctors knew things, the historical accuracy, archeological accuracy, the uniform harmony in the Bible from cover to cover, though written by 35 authors spanning 2000+ years. The Bible alone is evidence enough of the proof of God. No book foretells of future kingdoms & people & events way before they happen. If someone really seeks truth, wants a purpose for life, the Bible holds the answers. It truly is a divine book from God.


well you might wanna watch out with the stockmarket. The structural problems nowadays are bigger than they were in 2008. It would not surprise me if we got something worse than 'black thursday'.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby codeblue1018 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:01 pm

crispybits wrote:Strange how a simple yes/no question like "Is it possible to enter heaven without accepting Jesus as saviour?" can cause so many long winded replies all of which fail to give the simple yes/no the question needs for a proper answer...


Short answer, no. Long answer that explains things well; reference univeralchiro's above response.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:02 pm

question, chiro: were you a devout christian before all of this happened (before 2003)?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oVo on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:29 pm

codeblue1018 wrote:Short answer, no.

Know you might be judgementally mistaken.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Lootifer on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:31 pm

universalchiro wrote:I'd be happy too. First off my info was ridiculed for being false without thorough research. And the rest of my info, I see was accepted. A better approach from someone who wants truth, is to just plainly ask, "Please provide evidence".
Here is your evidence:

Magazine: Chemical & Engineering News, November 21, 1983. Page 42. "Chemist at Argonne National Laboratory have succeeded in making a type of artificial coal from naturally occurring materials. The process is much less severe than formerly thought to be necessary and provides some new insights into coal structure and how to alter it..."
Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it and its synthesis raises many interesting questions in coal chemistry.

How does this work? Wood is made up of Lignin (a binding agent) and Cellulose fibers.
Lignin + Clay + Heat (150* Celcius) + time (8 months) - O2 (vacuum) = 100% coal. Indistinguishable from other coal by all techniques.
Reference: Hayatsu et al. Organic Geochemistry, Volume 6, pp 463-471, 1984

This is all discussed in a youtube video between the following time slots:
From the 4:30 mark to the 20:00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W12jUKnPbHI

So now you have proof positive of what I said is true. And your claim of what I said as being false is wrong. What you do with this will reveal how dedicated you are to your faith in your belief in 4.6 billion year old earth to add validity to Evolution.

There is evidence that the Bible is spot on, truth and accurate. And is in deed the word of God from God. For no man could foretell of specific events years before they occur.

Ok...

Not once did I say in my post that you cannot make synthetic coal. That is coal that is physically* no different to normal coal dug up out of the ground.

What I did say is that when tested that synthetic coal will no doubt return a radiometric age of the original source material (in this case lignin).

The two articles you linked do not cover if they radiometrically tested the samples [in the publically available material] (I doubt they did as they were researching synthetic fuals, not how old the earth is), and I am not willing to pay for the articles myself.

Again; do you have evidence that they radiometrically tested the synthetic coal samples, and if so, that they returned an age of 20 million years?

fyi:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v061n047.p042
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 316a0.html

edit:
Ooooh but one article lists its references; nothing on radio or carbon dating :(
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby universalchiro on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:18 am

Lootifer wrote:
universalchiro wrote:I'd be happy too. First off my info was ridiculed for being false without thorough research. And the rest of my info, I see was accepted. A better approach from someone who wants truth, is to just plainly ask, "Please provide evidence".
Here is your evidence:

Magazine: Chemical & Engineering News, November 21, 1983. Page 42. "Chemist at Argonne National Laboratory have succeeded in making a type of artificial coal from naturally occurring materials. The process is much less severe than formerly thought to be necessary and provides some new insights into coal structure and how to alter it..."
Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it and its synthesis raises many interesting questions in coal chemistry.

How does this work? Wood is made up of Lignin (a binding agent) and Cellulose fibers.
Lignin + Clay + Heat (150* Celcius) + time (8 months) - O2 (vacuum) = 100% coal. Indistinguishable from other coal by all techniques.
Reference: Hayatsu et al. Organic Geochemistry, Volume 6, pp 463-471, 1984

This is all discussed in a youtube video between the following time slots:
From the 4:30 mark to the 20:00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W12jUKnPbHI

So now you have proof positive of what I said is true. And your claim of what I said as being false is wrong. What you do with this will reveal how dedicated you are to your faith in your belief in 4.6 billion year old earth to add validity to Evolution.

There is evidence that the Bible is spot on, truth and accurate. And is in deed the word of God from God. For no man could foretell of specific events years before they occur.

Ok...

Not once did I say in my post that you cannot make synthetic coal. That is coal that is physically* no different to normal coal dug up out of the ground.

What I did say is that when tested that synthetic coal will no doubt return a radiometric age of the original source material (in this case lignin).

The two articles you linked do not cover if they radiometrically tested the samples [in the publically available material] (I doubt they did as they were researching synthetic fuals, not how old the earth is), and I am not willing to pay for the articles myself.

Again; do you have evidence that they radiometrically tested the synthetic coal samples, and if so, that they returned an age of 20 million years?

fyi:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v061n047.p042
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 316a0.html

edit:
Ooooh but one article lists its references; nothing on radio or carbon dating :(

Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it

Luke 16:19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Atheist: "Hey Christians, show me a sign, give me proof that your God exist"
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you will not be persuaded by them, you won't be persuaded by further proof"

Evolutionist: "Hey Christians, what is the scientific evidence of your God? Give me proof and maybe I'll consider hearing more."
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, you won't be persuaded even when proof comes in seals, bowls and trumpets".
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Lootifer on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:27 am

universalchiro wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
universalchiro wrote:I'd be happy too. First off my info was ridiculed for being false without thorough research. And the rest of my info, I see was accepted. A better approach from someone who wants truth, is to just plainly ask, "Please provide evidence".
Here is your evidence:

Magazine: Chemical & Engineering News, November 21, 1983. Page 42. "Chemist at Argonne National Laboratory have succeeded in making a type of artificial coal from naturally occurring materials. The process is much less severe than formerly thought to be necessary and provides some new insights into coal structure and how to alter it..."
Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it and its synthesis raises many interesting questions in coal chemistry.

How does this work? Wood is made up of Lignin (a binding agent) and Cellulose fibers.
Lignin + Clay + Heat (150* Celcius) + time (8 months) - O2 (vacuum) = 100% coal. Indistinguishable from other coal by all techniques.
Reference: Hayatsu et al. Organic Geochemistry, Volume 6, pp 463-471, 1984

This is all discussed in a youtube video between the following time slots:
From the 4:30 mark to the 20:00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W12jUKnPbHI

So now you have proof positive of what I said is true. And your claim of what I said as being false is wrong. What you do with this will reveal how dedicated you are to your faith in your belief in 4.6 billion year old earth to add validity to Evolution.

There is evidence that the Bible is spot on, truth and accurate. And is in deed the word of God from God. For no man could foretell of specific events years before they occur.

Ok...

Not once did I say in my post that you cannot make synthetic coal. That is coal that is physically* no different to normal coal dug up out of the ground.

What I did say is that when tested that synthetic coal will no doubt return a radiometric age of the original source material (in this case lignin).

The two articles you linked do not cover if they radiometrically tested the samples [in the publically available material] (I doubt they did as they were researching synthetic fuals, not how old the earth is), and I am not willing to pay for the articles myself.

Again; do you have evidence that they radiometrically tested the synthetic coal samples, and if so, that they returned an age of 20 million years?

fyi:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v061n047.p042
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 316a0.html

edit:
Ooooh but one article lists its references; nothing on radio or carbon dating :(

Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it

Luke 16:19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Atheist: "Hey Christians, show me a sign, give me proof that your God exist"
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you will not be persuaded by them, you won't be persuaded by further proof"

Evolutionist: "Hey Christians, what is the scientific evidence of your God? Give me proof and maybe I'll consider hearing more."
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, you won't be persuaded even when proof comes in seals, bowls and trumpets".

Firstly I am more than willing to accept evidence of god; its largely the fundamental reason why I am agnostic rather than an atheist.

Secondly once again saying something is indistinguishable without knowing exactly what they used to test this does not support your assertion that radio-dating is completely bunkum.

For example. Say we have two balls. One is red and one is blue; other than the difference in colour they are identical.

I could quite rationally make the statement "these balls are indistinguishable from the one another by all the techniques so far applied to it ".

However someone could come along and ask "oh did you check the optical spectrum? 'cause one of those balls is red and the other blue"

I am not challenging statement that the coal samples are indistinguishable from each other under various tests (from the references section the main test looks to be mass spectrometry). I am asking you for evidence that they used radio-dating between the two samples, and if so did both the sample return 20million year old results.

I say this because two samples can essentially be identical when tested using mass spectrometry (I personally have done a fair bit of this kind of testing), but could quite easily return hugely radio-metric ages.

Now you are an intelligent man, can you please be intellectually honest in this?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby codeblue1018 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:47 am

oVo wrote:
codeblue1018 wrote:Short answer, no.

Know you might be judgementally mistaken.


Doubtful mate; hopefully for your sake, you have a change of heart once you near your end. Then again, what do I know.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby codeblue1018 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:57 am

Lootifer wrote:
universalchiro wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
universalchiro wrote:I'd be happy too. First off my info was ridiculed for being false without thorough research. And the rest of my info, I see was accepted. A better approach from someone who wants truth, is to just plainly ask, "Please provide evidence".
Here is your evidence:

Magazine: Chemical & Engineering News, November 21, 1983. Page 42. "Chemist at Argonne National Laboratory have succeeded in making a type of artificial coal from naturally occurring materials. The process is much less severe than formerly thought to be necessary and provides some new insights into coal structure and how to alter it..."
Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it and its synthesis raises many interesting questions in coal chemistry.

How does this work? Wood is made up of Lignin (a binding agent) and Cellulose fibers.
Lignin + Clay + Heat (150* Celcius) + time (8 months) - O2 (vacuum) = 100% coal. Indistinguishable from other coal by all techniques.
Reference: Hayatsu et al. Organic Geochemistry, Volume 6, pp 463-471, 1984

This is all discussed in a youtube video between the following time slots:
From the 4:30 mark to the 20:00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W12jUKnPbHI

So now you have proof positive of what I said is true. And your claim of what I said as being false is wrong. What you do with this will reveal how dedicated you are to your faith in your belief in 4.6 billion year old earth to add validity to Evolution.

There is evidence that the Bible is spot on, truth and accurate. And is in deed the word of God from God. For no man could foretell of specific events years before they occur.

Ok...

Not once did I say in my post that you cannot make synthetic coal. That is coal that is physically* no different to normal coal dug up out of the ground.

What I did say is that when tested that synthetic coal will no doubt return a radiometric age of the original source material (in this case lignin).

The two articles you linked do not cover if they radiometrically tested the samples [in the publically available material] (I doubt they did as they were researching synthetic fuals, not how old the earth is), and I am not willing to pay for the articles myself.

Again; do you have evidence that they radiometrically tested the synthetic coal samples, and if so, that they returned an age of 20 million years?

fyi:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cen-v061n047.p042
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 316a0.html

edit:
Ooooh but one article lists its references; nothing on radio or carbon dating :(

Magazine: Nature, March 28, 1985. Page 316. "Winans and his colleagues at Argonne National Laboratory have taken less than one year to prepare a thoroughly characterized synthetic coal. The material they produce is indistinguishable from the real thing by all the techniques so far applied to it

Luke 16:19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Atheist: "Hey Christians, show me a sign, give me proof that your God exist"
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you will not be persuaded by them, you won't be persuaded by further proof"

Evolutionist: "Hey Christians, what is the scientific evidence of your God? Give me proof and maybe I'll consider hearing more."
Christians reply: "You have Moses and the Prophets, if you won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, you won't be persuaded even when proof comes in seals, bowls and trumpets".

Firstly I am more than willing to accept evidence of god; its largely the fundamental reason why I am agnostic rather than an atheist.

Secondly once again saying something is indistinguishable without knowing exactly what they used to test this does not support your assertion that radio-dating is completely bunkum.

For example. Say we have two balls. One is red and one is blue; other than the difference in colour they are identical.

I could quite rationally make the statement "these balls are indistinguishable from the one another by all the techniques so far applied to it ".

However someone could come along and ask "oh did you check the optical spectrum? 'cause one of those balls is red and the other blue"

I am not challenging statement that the coal samples are indistinguishable from each other under various tests (from the references section the main test looks to be mass spectrometry). I am asking you for evidence that they used radio-dating between the two samples, and if so did both the sample return 20million year old results.

I say this because two samples can essentially be identical when tested using mass spectrometry (I personally have done a fair bit of this kind of testing), but could quite easily return hugely radio-metric ages.

Now you are an intelligent man, can you please be intellectually honest in this?


What kind of evidence do you need mate? The evidence is in the bible; whether or not you choose to believe the words or not is entirely up to you. Not one of us here will sway you one way or another nor can anyone here provide "proof" simple as that. I understand your reasoning regarding agnostic over atheist, that said, you do believe in a higher power in Jesus or no? I was brought up in the Catholic Church, however, there are things in Catholicism that I now disagree with. I consider myself a Christian now.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Lootifer on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:07 am

The synthetic coal thing bugs me greatly.

I take a particular issue with the debunking of good science (radio-dating) due to making a false assertion. I do not read any other posts in this thread.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:55 am

God, save me, oh god, I am your slave, your dirty asslicking servant, mhm, I will rim your ass if you ask me, oh please god, ask me to rim your ass!!
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