So ask yourself this (read carefully)

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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby oddzy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:42 am

b.k. barunt wrote:
oddzy wrote:actually, louisiana is only 32.4% catholic. several states - conn., mass., and n.y. - have more, and there are several that are within a couple of percentage points, like il. and wisc.

http://www.glenmary.org/grc/pdf/catholi ... te1990.pdf


Ok miss smartypants, so i exagerrated a bit. I lived in Lafayette when i first came to Louisiana in 71 and it had to be 90% Catholic - half of the Baptists in Lafayette are closet Catholics. There's fooking nuns all over the place.


Honibaz

lol...just keepin' ya straight. actually, most of the baptists in south louisiana are either converted catholics or a generation or 2 from catholic... as a result of the sbc's intense focus on evangelizing down here.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:35 pm

Oct 7th, 2007

Osma's 'three reasons for enmity against the United States.

#1 The U.S. Imposed sanctions against Iraq from 1991 to 9/11: "One million Iraqi Children have thus far died thought they did not do anything wrong."

#2 American Policies towards Israel and her occupied territories: "I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine."

#3The Stationing of U.S. troops and the building of military bases in Saudi Arabia: "and before all the army of infidels depart from the land of Muhammad.

Of this list, as an American, #1 is the most troubling for my conscience. I can't help but empathize with Osama on some level. I feel awful even thinking that but I do.


ViperOverLord wrote:Way to mischaracterize conservative values. You are the one that should read your crap carefully.

1. We don't want ruthlessly stamp out the enemy
2. Iraq was a brutal place that threatened national security. We liberated 20 million people. I'm not sorry that you have a problem with that.
3. We don't base our beliefs on God being on 'our side.' God loves everyone equally. But you will find that there is a very sinister undercurrent of murder in the Middle East. That is why there are honor killings, assasinations and just your general politics of murder based on theocracy. You don't see politicians getting killed here because a Christian was offended.

GET AN F'ING CLUE BEFORE YOU POST YOUR OFFENSIVE DRIVEL

I'm sorry, but you just pissed me off. Allow me to rebuttal.

Your #2 is a complete fabrication. We didn't liberate them... unless you want to say that we liberated them from the UN, which imposed US and UK sanctions on the people of Iraq in an attempt to kill enough people quietly that they did the work of overthrowing Saddam without us.
Allow this:
The U.S. imposed sanctions on Iraq between 1991 and 2003. George Bush Senior's NSA General Brent Scowcroft gets a lot of credit here for being one of the Morons whose actions directly/indirectly lead to 9-11(Madeline Albright gets some of this credit too). Here's how it went down, see he, and G.B. Senior wanted to make Iraq ungovernable... because they didn't want to invade during the Gulf War, right? So they came up with a plan to cause revolt in Iraq. They dropped 90,000 tons of bombs in Iraq in a month and a half. They targeted Power plants (they destroyed 18 of 20) and Iraq's water pumping and sanitation systems. While this alone is a direct violation of the parts of the Geneva Convention , that's not what should grab you.
What should grab you was the United State's goal during this bombing campaign. We knew, ahead of time, that by destroying these vital systems we would create increased outbreaks of disease and high child mortality rates. That's right motherfucker's, we bombed Iraq in a way that was targeting unborn children. The anti-abortionist's championed a president that authorized killing unborn Iraqi children.
Any way, if you're reading this, you prolly want statistics. Dr. Thomas Nagy did all this work for us. The Primary Document that you should see, is "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," dated January 22, 1991. Allow me to quote a snippet
"[Iraq's river's] contain biological materials, pollutants, and are laden with bacteria. Unless the water is pruified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur."


One of the items our US/UK embargo blocked after destroying these sanitation plants, was chlorine.

in 1995 Colonel John A Warden II wrote
"As a result, [of the shut down of water treatment plants] epidemics of Gastreonteritis, cholera, and typhoid broke out, leading to perhaps as many as 100,000 civilian deaths and doubling the infant mortality rate."


May 1991 A team from the Harvard School of Public Health suggested:
at least 170,000 children under the age of five will die in the coming year a=from the delayed effects of the bombing.


I also mentioned that bombing these sites was a violation of the Geneva conventions right? If you don't believe me it's under Article 54 (2) of "the protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions August 12, 1949, relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), June 8, 1977"
What I find most interesting about this, is that although the US refused to sign this, we are still liable for War Crimes!

Our sanctions after-the-fact (1/3 of the reason Osama attacked us) deepened the effects of the bombing. They were, without doubt, the toughest sanctions ever imposed on a nation. U.N. Security Council Resolution 661 froze all foreign Iraqi assets and authorized everyone to cut off trade. We so strongly applied our embargo that Iraq had almost no money to buy basic medicine's for it's people.
Richard Garfield:
Iraq's legal trade was cut by an estimated 90% by sanctions

In 1995 the U.N.F.A. wrote
an estimated 567,000 Iraqi children are estimated to have died from the sanctions

This lead to a short lived outcry from several worldwide watch-groups. So, in '96 the UN adopted it's "Oil for Food" program. While it was a public relation's win, it did nothing to save Iraqi lives. All proceeds were banked by the UN, and they skimmed off 47% to pay for alleged war crimes against Kuwait and some for the Kurds in Iraq.
All this time, the US alone held onto the right to veto or delay anything that Iraq ordered. And we did, a sh!tload. from '01 - '02 holds on humanitarian aid tripled. We denied medicine, firefighting equipment, school supplies including computers and printers, milk production and pasteurization equipment, ect. Of course, we also continued blocking chlorine, and all parts for building/reparing water purification and sanitation machines/plants.
Anupama Rao Singh, the United Nation's Children's Fund Rep to Iraq:
Children under five were dying from malnutrition-related diseases in numbers ranging from a conservative 2,600 per month to a more realistic 5,357 per month.


Richard Garfield himself estimates that through 2000, US imposed sanctions killed approx. 350,000 children.

I can go on and on about the US being the Iraqi liberators. We were holding them hostage this whole time!!! We were killing their children!



And your #3 is just utterly ridiculous.
The United States has abducted and tortured more people than all the Iraqi and Afgahni insurgents by all accounts. We have purposefully killed more civilians than both combined. All of that which we have done through "collateral damage" is prohibited by the Geneva conventions "Common Article 3."
When I say that we have killed more civilians... the Boston Globe estimated the number between twice and ten times the numbers killed by insurgents bombs.
6/2/2005 Iraqi Interior Ministry announces that:
Insurgent violence has claimed some 12,000 civilian lives. The American military has killed between 21,000 and 50,000 civilians.
However that same year the Iraqiyun Humanitarian Organization released it's study that the US had killed 128,000 civilians.

In Afghanistan, according to Robert Fisk, B-52s alone accounted for 3,700 deaths by 2001.
After this, until 2007 most reports are for individual attacks.
12/29/2001 52 people slain by American forces (over half women and children)
1/23/2002 16 villagers and 14 woman and children killed in separate incidents
6/30/2002 An AC 130 gunship opens fire on a wedding killing 48 bodies. All but three are women and children. At first the US claimed the gunship had come under fire, but later admitted it's mistake after a special forces investigation proved that it had not. The US promised to build schools, roads, and a hospital in the area as a reprieve. But so far has not.

During the Shock and Awe attack of Iraq the Defense department drew up plans to kill Saddam and other high value targets. By US rules, Rumsfeld had to sign off ANY air strike
"thought likely to result in the deaths of more than thirty civilians."
He signed off on all 50 that came to him. None of the high value targets were killed.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:41 am

Thanks for posting, that's a good read, Juan. And very in-depth on that time
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:09 pm

Thanks bro. hugs.

I could go on, but Viper prolly isn't a bad guy. Plus it's a lot more work than I want to admit typing all that up. I didn't even bother to proof read.... I was just like "f*ck it, it's good."
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:bla bla Bigballin. Your fake. You claim your posting for the fun of it then you have a lot of crap to say. I'm not going to bother responding to all of your points if you think you get it both ways.

And I don't care if you labeled it "conservative". I've been hearing the anti-conservative dross to know a front on "conservatism" as it is perceived. And yes it is generally a conservative concept to believe in God or invade Iraq or be anti gay marriage. It's not even a matter of whether you brought it up. It is what it is.


Oh, man, you figured me out!!

C'mon! TROLL HARDER!


Responding directly to your posting is 'trolling?' Get a life.


Do they sell them at Wal-Mart?

Why do you consider Iraq to have been a threat to our national security (USA's) before Iraq II: The Sequel?

Does Allah love everyone equally?


Nice spin. Its obvious why Iraq threatened national security so I'm not going to answer the ignorant question. Also I care about whether Allah loves people equally as much as I care about whether Unicorns eat fruit. And your statement implies I was preaching when in fact I was not.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:51 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Oct 7th, 2007

Osma's 'three reasons for enmity against the United States.

#1 The U.S. Imposed sanctions against Iraq from 1991 to 9/11: "One million Iraqi Children have thus far died thought they did not do anything wrong."

#2 American Policies towards Israel and her occupied territories: "I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine."

#3The Stationing of U.S. troops and the building of military bases in Saudi Arabia: "and before all the army of infidels depart from the land of Muhammad.

Of this list, as an American, #1 is the most troubling for my conscience. I can't help but empathize with Osama on some level. I feel awful even thinking that but I do.


ViperOverLord wrote:Way to mischaracterize conservative values. You are the one that should read your crap carefully.

1. We don't want ruthlessly stamp out the enemy
2. Iraq was a brutal place that threatened national security. We liberated 20 million people. I'm not sorry that you have a problem with that.
3. We don't base our beliefs on God being on 'our side.' God loves everyone equally. But you will find that there is a very sinister undercurrent of murder in the Middle East. That is why there are honor killings, assasinations and just your general politics of murder based on theocracy. You don't see politicians getting killed here because a Christian was offended.

GET AN F'ING CLUE BEFORE YOU POST YOUR OFFENSIVE DRIVEL

I'm sorry, but you just pissed me off. Allow me to rebuttal.

Your #2 is a complete fabrication. We didn't liberate them... unless you want to say that we liberated them from the UN, which imposed US and UK sanctions on the people of Iraq in an attempt to kill enough people quietly that they did the work of overthrowing Saddam without us.
Allow this:
The U.S. imposed sanctions on Iraq between 1991 and 2003. George Bush Senior's NSA General Brent Scowcroft gets a lot of credit here for being one of the Morons whose actions directly/indirectly lead to 9-11(Madeline Albright gets some of this credit too). Here's how it went down, see he, and G.B. Senior wanted to make Iraq ungovernable... because they didn't want to invade during the Gulf War, right? So they came up with a plan to cause revolt in Iraq. They dropped 90,000 tons of bombs in Iraq in a month and a half. They targeted Power plants (they destroyed 18 of 20) and Iraq's water pumping and sanitation systems. While this alone is a direct violation of the parts of the Geneva Convention , that's not what should grab you.
What should grab you was the United State's goal during this bombing campaign. We knew, ahead of time, that by destroying these vital systems we would create increased outbreaks of disease and high child mortality rates. That's right motherfucker's, we bombed Iraq in a way that was targeting unborn children. The anti-abortionist's championed a president that authorized killing unborn Iraqi children.
Any way, if you're reading this, you prolly want statistics. Dr. Thomas Nagy did all this work for us. The Primary Document that you should see, is "Iraq Water Treatment Vulnerabilities," dated January 22, 1991. Allow me to quote a snippet
"[Iraq's river's] contain biological materials, pollutants, and are laden with bacteria. Unless the water is pruified with chlorine, epidemics of such diseases as cholera, hepatitis, and typhoid could occur."


One of the items our US/UK embargo blocked after destroying these sanitation plants, was chlorine.

in 1995 Colonel John A Warden II wrote
"As a result, [of the shut down of water treatment plants] epidemics of Gastreonteritis, cholera, and typhoid broke out, leading to perhaps as many as 100,000 civilian deaths and doubling the infant mortality rate."


May 1991 A team from the Harvard School of Public Health suggested:
at least 170,000 children under the age of five will die in the coming year a=from the delayed effects of the bombing.


I also mentioned that bombing these sites was a violation of the Geneva conventions right? If you don't believe me it's under Article 54 (2) of "the protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions August 12, 1949, relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), June 8, 1977"
What I find most interesting about this, is that although the US refused to sign this, we are still liable for War Crimes!

Our sanctions after-the-fact (1/3 of the reason Osama attacked us) deepened the effects of the bombing. They were, without doubt, the toughest sanctions ever imposed on a nation. U.N. Security Council Resolution 661 froze all foreign Iraqi assets and authorized everyone to cut off trade. We so strongly applied our embargo that Iraq had almost no money to buy basic medicine's for it's people.
Richard Garfield:
Iraq's legal trade was cut by an estimated 90% by sanctions

In 1995 the U.N.F.A. wrote
an estimated 567,000 Iraqi children are estimated to have died from the sanctions

This lead to a short lived outcry from several worldwide watch-groups. So, in '96 the UN adopted it's "Oil for Food" program. While it was a public relation's win, it did nothing to save Iraqi lives. All proceeds were banked by the UN, and they skimmed off 47% to pay for alleged war crimes against Kuwait and some for the Kurds in Iraq.
All this time, the US alone held onto the right to veto or delay anything that Iraq ordered. And we did, a sh!tload. from '01 - '02 holds on humanitarian aid tripled. We denied medicine, firefighting equipment, school supplies including computers and printers, milk production and pasteurization equipment, ect. Of course, we also continued blocking chlorine, and all parts for building/reparing water purification and sanitation machines/plants.
Anupama Rao Singh, the United Nation's Children's Fund Rep to Iraq:
Children under five were dying from malnutrition-related diseases in numbers ranging from a conservative 2,600 per month to a more realistic 5,357 per month.


Richard Garfield himself estimates that through 2000, US imposed sanctions killed approx. 350,000 children.

I can go on and on about the US being the Iraqi liberators. We were holding them hostage this whole time!!! We were killing their children!



And your #3 is just utterly ridiculous.
The United States has abducted and tortured more people than all the Iraqi and Afgahni insurgents by all accounts. We have purposefully killed more civilians than both combined. All of that which we have done through "collateral damage" is prohibited by the Geneva conventions "Common Article 3."
When I say that we have killed more civilians... the Boston Globe estimated the number between twice and ten times the numbers killed by insurgents bombs.
6/2/2005 Iraqi Interior Ministry announces that:
Insurgent violence has claimed some 12,000 civilian lives. The American military has killed between 21,000 and 50,000 civilians.
However that same year the Iraqiyun Humanitarian Organization released it's study that the US had killed 128,000 civilians.

In Afghanistan, according to Robert Fisk, B-52s alone accounted for 3,700 deaths by 2001.
After this, until 2007 most reports are for individual attacks.
12/29/2001 52 people slain by American forces (over half women and children)
1/23/2002 16 villagers and 14 woman and children killed in separate incidents
6/30/2002 An AC 130 gunship opens fire on a wedding killing 48 bodies. All but three are women and children. At first the US claimed the gunship had come under fire, but later admitted it's mistake after a special forces investigation proved that it had not. The US promised to build schools, roads, and a hospital in the area as a reprieve. But so far has not.

During the Shock and Awe attack of Iraq the Defense department drew up plans to kill Saddam and other high value targets. By US rules, Rumsfeld had to sign off ANY air strike
"thought likely to result in the deaths of more than thirty civilians."
He signed off on all 50 that came to him. None of the high value targets were killed.


--Yea your right Juan. Iraq didn't need to be liberated. The fact that Saddam was allowed to kill and rape anyone at will and in fact killed millions and tortured thousands was not a big deal. Go piss yourself off.

--One million Iraqi children died due to US sanctions? Where'd you get that stat at? Madeupmonkeyshit.com? Saddam would gladly sacfrifice food for 10,000 children if it meant another palace so you can f off on that higher ground crap.

--I'm sure you had plenty of other ignorant comments to respond to, but you only get 2 and you're lucky to get that.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:59 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:Nice spin. Its obvious why Iraq threatened national security so I'm not going to answer the ignorant question.

Then answer it for me. You know, the guy who has had all the facts so far. Because I'll tell you right now, not only is this statement wrong, it's pretty well beyond ignorant.

ViperOverLord wrote:--One million Iraqi children died due to US sanctions? Where'd you get that stat at? Madeupmonkeyshit.com? Saddam would gladly sacfrifice food for 10,000 children if it meant another palace so you can f off on that higher ground crap.

I posted all my work. You can clearly see that most of it came straight from the UN and it's officials. The rest came from the US government. And also, show your work... where did you get that Saddam would 10,000 children in exchange for another palace? hahaha :?:

ViperOverLord wrote:--I'm sure you had plenty of other ignorant comments to respond to, but you only get 2 and you're lucky to get that.

Well when you're ready, all my work is there. You can search for any of the names or dates you hadn't heard of before. You're welcome for the benefit of the doubt I gave you.
Last edited by Juan_Bottom on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby Woodruff on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:13 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:Nice spin. Its obvious why Iraq threatened national security so I'm not going to answer the ignorant question.


No, it really ISN'T, so perhaps you could humor us and point out exactly how Iraq threatened our national security?

I'm not saying that perhaps it wasn't "the right thing to do" (I'm rather a police-the-world sort, at heart)...but there's nothing about Iraq at that time that threatened our national security.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby ViperOverLord on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:48 pm

Woodruff wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:Nice spin. Its obvious why Iraq threatened national security so I'm not going to answer the ignorant question.


No, it really ISN'T, so perhaps you could humor us and point out exactly how Iraq threatened our national security?

I'm not saying that perhaps it wasn't "the right thing to do" (I'm rather a police-the-world sort, at heart)...but there's nothing about Iraq at that time that threatened our national security.


How about the mere fact that they had a dictator that was insane enough to shoot missles at US planes? How about the fact that he was a sworn enemy of the US and would not cooperate with the UN Inspectors? When you have an insane tyrant, you don't leave shit to chance. Even to this day we don't know that they did not smuggle stuff to Syria or Lebanon before the war. So yes they were a threat to national security. But that is beside the point. We were right to take out a brutal dictator whether they directly threatened us or not.
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Re: So ask yourself this (read carefully)

Postby Woodruff on Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:23 am

ViperOverLord wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:Nice spin. Its obvious why Iraq threatened national security so I'm not going to answer the ignorant question.


No, it really ISN'T, so perhaps you could humor us and point out exactly how Iraq threatened our national security?

I'm not saying that perhaps it wasn't "the right thing to do" (I'm rather a police-the-world sort, at heart)...but there's nothing about Iraq at that time that threatened our national security.


How about the mere fact that they had a dictator that was insane enough to shoot missles at US planes?


You mean the US planes that were in fact controlling every aspect of his military? Those planes? I'm quite certain that his ability to shoot missiles at planes (that were, in fact, controlling every aspect of his military) is not in ANY way a threat to our national security.

ViperOverLord wrote:How about the fact that he was a sworn enemy of the US and would not cooperate with the UN Inspectors?


What SPECIFIC threat does that pose to our national security?

ViperOverLord wrote:When you have an insane tyrant, you don't leave shit to chance. Even to this day we don't know that they did not smuggle stuff to Syria or Lebanon before the war.


Nor do we know that they did. No clear threat.

ViperOverLord wrote:So yes they were a threat to national security. But that is beside the point. We were right to take out a brutal dictator whether they directly threatened us or not.


Ah, you appear to have realized that you don't ACTUALLY have anything you can point to where Iraq was an actual threat to our national security, so you're going to try to tapdance your way out of the idiotic statement you made. It's nice of you to admit it this quickly...saved us all a lot of time. Thanks!
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