SB 1070: Most Controversial Component IS Constitutional

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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:54 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Seriously, this misrepresentation of racial profiling has got to stop. The only thing racial about this entire issue are the racebaiting tactics that illegal supporters are using.


Illegal supporter? What the hell does that even mean?


It means you, who'd support illegals over people who don't support illegals.
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Police departments use racial profiling all the time when putting out bulletins on possible suspects after a robbery, murder, etc.. Illegal immigrants have committed a crime, so racial and ethnic profiling to catch the offenders is fair game.


You seriously believe that when the police put out a bulletin on possible suspects after a robbery, that is similar to the general idea behind racial profiling? So in your mind, the idea behind trying to describe a SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL doesn't play into it at all? That seems monumentally stupid on your part.


It's the same idea as going after a "5'10" man with dark complexion and brown eyes wearing blue jeans in the vicinity of...." which is frequently the description given on the news when they're after "a specific individual".


No...it definitely is NOT "the same idea".

Yeah, it is. Except in the one, they're profiling black men and in the other, they're profiling hispanics. Especially since most news edits don't give a specific height, they say "medium build" and such.

So, would the AZ bill be okay with you if they only went after "medium build" type people who might have committed the CRIME of ILLEGALLY crossing our borders?

stahrgazer wrote:So, Woodie, you're saying it's okay if it's anti-drugs, but NOT okay if it's anti-illegals. Hmm....


You have a silly way of making yourself look stupid.[/quote]

No, but you have a limited intellect.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:12 am

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Seriously, this misrepresentation of racial profiling has got to stop. The only thing racial about this entire issue are the racebaiting tactics that illegal supporters are using.


Illegal supporter? What the hell does that even mean?


It means you, who'd support illegals over people who don't support illegals.


If you want to make a cogent point, you're really going to have to stop contradicting yourself.

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Police departments use racial profiling all the time when putting out bulletins on possible suspects after a robbery, murder, etc.. Illegal immigrants have committed a crime, so racial and ethnic profiling to catch the offenders is fair game.


You seriously believe that when the police put out a bulletin on possible suspects after a robbery, that is similar to the general idea behind racial profiling? So in your mind, the idea behind trying to describe a SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL doesn't play into it at all? That seems monumentally stupid on your part.


It's the same idea as going after a "5'10" man with dark complexion and brown eyes wearing blue jeans in the vicinity of...." which is frequently the description given on the news when they're after "a specific individual".


No...it definitely is NOT "the same idea".


Yeah, it is. Except in the one, they're profiling black men and in the other, they're profiling hispanics. Especially since most news edits don't give a specific height, they say "medium build" and such.
So, would the AZ bill be okay with you if they only went after "medium build" type people who might have committed the CRIME of ILLEGALLY crossing our borders?


You're going to have to better explain how giving a description that is aimed at a specific individual is in any way the same as reacting to a general profile without a specific search being in place. Because so far, you've failed to do so.

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:So, Woodie, you're saying it's okay if it's anti-drugs, but NOT okay if it's anti-illegals. Hmm....


You have a silly way of making yourself look stupid.


No, but you have a limited intellect.


The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife. I can at least figure out the difference between an actual individual suspect and a broad group of people.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:42 am

Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:So, Woodie, you're saying it's okay if it's anti-drugs, but NOT okay if it's anti-illegals. Hmm....


You have a silly way of making yourself look stupid.


No, but you have a limited intellect.


The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife. I can at least figure out the difference between an actual individual suspect and a broad group of people.


Maybe you can, Woodie, but apparently you missed, again, the part where anyone in a specific area is stopped in case they just *might* be there about drugs, whether they've been known to do anything suspicious or not; similar to anyone in the area of AZ being stopped because they're in an area where they *might* have crossed borders illegally, whether they've been known to do anything suspicious or not.

I haven't you hollaring about how it's an infringement of personal liberty to stop people and ask for id or what they're doing in an area generally prone to drugs...nope, you didn't hollar then, not until it's about cracking down on criminal illegals. So, again, you're saying it's okay when it's anti-drugs, but not okay when it's anti-illegals.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:58 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:So, Woodie, you're saying it's okay if it's anti-drugs, but NOT okay if it's anti-illegals. Hmm....


You have a silly way of making yourself look stupid.


No, but you have a limited intellect.


The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife. I can at least figure out the difference between an actual individual suspect and a broad group of people.


Maybe you can, Woodie, but apparently you missed, again, the part where anyone in a specific area is stopped in case they just *might* be there about drugs, whether they've been known to do anything suspicious or not; similar to anyone in the area of AZ being stopped because they're in an area where they *might* have crossed borders illegally, whether they've been known to do anything suspicious or not.

I haven't you hollaring about how it's an infringement of personal liberty to stop people and ask for id or what they're doing in an area generally prone to drugs...nope, you didn't hollar then, not until it's about cracking down on criminal illegals. So, again, you're saying it's okay when it's anti-drugs, but not okay when it's anti-illegals.


I'm confused as to why you would presume I'm ok with it being done as regards drugs. Do you make a habit of creating shit out of whole cloth, or did you just decide to build a strawman to throw at me only this one time?

I haven't seen you say that you are against the idea of children being mutilated by intelligent Russian-speaking lab rats, so clearly you're in favor of it...see how that works?
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:08 pm

That isn't even the law (contact/suspicion). It's only implemented when someone has already been pulled over or approached for a different crime, and after that it mirrors the federal law to the T.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:30 am

Woodruff wrote:I'm confused as to why you would presume I'm ok with it being done as regards drugs. Do you make a habit of creating shit out of whole cloth, or did you just decide to build a strawman to throw at me only this one time?

I haven't seen you say that you are against the idea of children being mutilated by intelligent Russian-speaking lab rats, so clearly you're in favor of it...see how that works?


The difference is, I'm not making hollow-straw arguments about the rights of children or lab rats being violated by making a law that enables the police to do something to find those committing a crime to begin with. I don't support lab bunnies or monkeys mutilating children, either, and I wouldn't be offended by an officer asking any them for identification to determine if they're one of those mutilators.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:17 am

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I'm confused as to why you would presume I'm ok with it being done as regards drugs. Do you make a habit of creating shit out of whole cloth, or did you just decide to build a strawman to throw at me only this one time?

I haven't seen you say that you are against the idea of children being mutilated by intelligent Russian-speaking lab rats, so clearly you're in favor of it...see how that works?


The difference is, I'm not making hollow-straw arguments


The hell you're not...that's exactly what you're doing. You're making shit up and then claiming I'm in favor of it, dishonest f*ck that you are. Then you're stupid enough to whine about me doing the same thing in a clearly sarcastic manner...unless, of course, you really do believe that there are intelligent Russian-speaking lab rats who are mutilating children.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:21 am

you guys are arguing over something that does not exist. It almost seems progressives are DEMANDING that there be racial profiling, because this just doesn't make sense and is plain insane.

Why does race make people crazy? I thought to overcome racial differences, we can start by completely ignoring the race of whichever person is in question. Why do progressives always introduce race? Why do they focus on it? Why do they talk about it constantly?
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:25 am

Phatscotty wrote:you guys are arguing over something that does not exist. It almost seems progressives are DEMANDING that there be racial profiling, because this just doesn't make sense and is plain insane.

Why does race make people crazy? I thought to overcome racial differences, we can start by completely ignoring the race of whichever person is in question. Why do progressives always introduce race? Why do they focus on it? Why do they talk about it constantly?


Scotty, I'm simply responding to the bullshit that stahr is spouting about me specifically. She has made a statement about ME...I'm certainly going to respond to it.

As well, she's making statements about racial profiling that don't even make sense. As far as I'm concerned, we're speaking OUTSIDE of the specific Arizona Immigration Law...we're into definitions now.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:29 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:you guys are arguing over something that does not exist. It almost seems progressives are DEMANDING that there be racial profiling, because this just doesn't make sense and is plain insane.

Why does race make people crazy? I thought to overcome racial differences, we can start by completely ignoring the race of whichever person is in question. Why do progressives always introduce race? Why do they focus on it? Why do they talk about it constantly?


Scotty, I'm simply responding to the bullshit that stahr is spouting about me specifically. She has made a statement about ME...I'm certainly going to respond to it.

As well, she's making statements about racial profiling that don't even make sense. As far as I'm concerned, we're speaking OUTSIDE of the specific Arizona Immigration Law...we're into definitions now.


I know, trying to steer the topic back on course, although the "racial hype of 2010" may be fizzling....

Obama just met the AZ governor though. I hear she told the president to "start siding with the American People"
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:17 pm

Woodruff wrote: hell you're not...


Nope, I'm not.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Scotty, I'm simply responding to the bullshit that stahr is spouting about me specifically. She has made a statement about ME...I'm certainly going to respond to it.

As well, she's making statements about racial profiling that don't even make sense. As far as I'm concerned, we're speaking OUTSIDE of the specific Arizona Immigration Law...we're into definitions now.


They make sense to people who haven't been sniffing the bottoms of lab rats.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:39 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Scotty, I'm simply responding to the bullshit that stahr is spouting about me specifically. She has made a statement about ME...I'm certainly going to respond to it.

As well, she's making statements about racial profiling that don't even make sense. As far as I'm concerned, we're speaking OUTSIDE of the specific Arizona Immigration Law...we're into definitions now.


They make sense to people who haven't been sniffing the bottoms of lab rats.


See...this is all you've got...straw men and insults...the sum total of stahrgazer's argument.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:00 pm

Woodruff wrote:
See...this is all you've got...straw men and insults...the sum total of stahrgazer's argument.


You've been sniffing again, I see.

As I said, my points make sense to others, whether they agree with the points or not. My points also actually occur, unlike yours (except in your fantasies after the sniffing).

But to explain again...

That the big bad ol' policeman is targeting someone to ask them for identification in Arizona is no different than the big bad ol' policeman targeting someone in an area known for drugs, to ask them for identification; or to target all people who might look like someone, in case they might be the perpetrator of a different sort of crime than illegally crossing borders.

It's not much different than pulling everyone they want to over on the side of a road at 3 a.m. in case they're drinking and driving; or suddenly creating and enforcing curfews in disaster areas so that residents must show identification to drive in the area (not all residents; I was waived through, still don't know why). In other words, it's law enforcement asking everyone they want to, to show some evidence that they're not doing some specifically-targeted illegal activity.

It's not racist, it's anti-crime; anti- a specific, targeted crime. It's simply that in Arizona, they currently want to target the crime of illegal immigration.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:30 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
See...this is all you've got...straw men and insults...the sum total of stahrgazer's argument.


You've been sniffing again, I see.


Well that's certainly a valuable response to someone's claim that all you have are insults. Well done!
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:00 am

Woodruff wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
See...this is all you've got...straw men and insults...the sum total of stahrgazer's argument.


You've been sniffing again, I see.


Well that's certainly a valuable response to someone's claim that all you have are insults. Well done!


Sniffing so much you've forgotten to read the rest of the story. Well done!
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:25 pm

1070b kicks in Thursday. Wish Arizona could get help from the feds, rather than opposition from the feds.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Baron Von PWN on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:33 pm

I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:45 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!


So all those dashboard cameras will never be reviewed for bogus stoppings? Also, why is there an assumption that the police will suddenly be doing anything different in their actual policing of the streets? I liken this to a secondary seat belt law: cop pulls you over for running the stop sign, then tacks on the no seat belt when he pulls up to the car. This suspicion of illegal immigration is a secondary (or even tertiary) law, not a primary one.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Baron Von PWN on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:56 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!


So all those dashboard cameras will never be reviewed for bogus stoppings? Also, why is there an assumption that the police will suddenly be doing anything different in their actual policing of the streets? I liken this to a secondary seat belt law: cop pulls you over for running the stop sign, then tacks on the no seat belt when he pulls up to the car. This suspicion of illegal immigration is a secondary (or even tertiary) law, not a primary one.


They now have a law informing them to look for illegals, its dressed up in a pretty framework that is legal but the spirit of the law is to find illegals. Police therefore are unnoficialy encouraged to stop people they think might be illegals, so they can come up with any reason they want to stop them. If the person they stopped is an illegal then if they were stopped improperly won't really matter they already found an illegal. If it turns out they are a citizens they just let them go with a warning to not do whatever bull shit reason they came up with, the citizen could sue for an arbitrary stop but good luck proving it and it is unlikely people would go through all the trouble to sue when there is a big chance it will be in the state's favor.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:01 am

I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed, and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen. Plus, every single pro-illegal immigration group will be having every eye focused on the state waiting for the first screw up.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:07 am

Night Strike wrote:I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed, and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen.


I'm going to presume there's at least one typo in here...let me know if that's not the case.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby Baron Von PWN on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:32 am

Night Strike wrote:I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed, and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen. Plus, every single pro-illegal immigration group will be having every eye focused on the state waiting for the first screw up.


Ah and nothing will happen to the Illegal eh? they'll just let them go like catch and release fisherman?

Your faith in the police to self regulate themselves is charming.
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby fumandomuerte on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:01 am

[sarcasm]We're re-conquering our continent, that's all haha[/sarcasm]
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Re: Arizona Immigration Bill - SB 1070 (with amendment)

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:04 am

Night Strike wrote:I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed, and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen. Plus, every single pro-illegal immigration group will be having every eye focused on the state waiting for the first screw up.

There already have been screw-ups. Like the Mariposa sherriff who is one of the most bigoted and plain idiotic people in uniform.

Problem is, you could care less about that. Its called "the ends justify the means" -- and you would do well to remember who else has used that excuse before. (hint -- not a lot of nice people).
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