Religion vs. Science

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Postby Jucdor on Thu May 04, 2006 4:53 am

WintersTwilight wrote:Jucdor and argyll72, I am sorry but I fail to see what either of you is trying to prove. To have a debate about religion it seems that you must first establish that there is a God. Have I missed something, or have we already concluded that a Divine Being exists?


Why? If that was the case, then I could never debate about religion. And I've been doing that for years and years.
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Postby WintersTwilight on Thu May 04, 2006 8:45 am

There are three things that seem to exist in all religions. 1. A numinous of some kind. 2. A moral code of some kind. 3. A connection between the numinous and the moral code.

You have argued against religion, but you have not put forth an arguement against God or against the moral law. I doubt that you will convince many of your point of view by simply reciting a few pieces of history. If there is no numinous then there is no religion. But if all you can do is talk about a couple of historical points, you have said nothing about the numinous. As long as a God exists, you will not be able to disprove religion in general.

It also seems that you insist that Christian history is flawed or wrong. Yet you also insist that your history is correct. It seems that we believe in history either by experiance or by authority. Since this goes back long before any of our experiances, we must base our beliefs on authority. You have eliminated all possiblity that Christian history could be true. At least in my opinion, if you go into a debate with a closed mind, you will not learn much and probably will not teach much. Humanity is not perfect, and we must be open the to possibility that any of us could be wrong.

Still, if you can not convince someone that there is no God, then it is unlikely that you will be able to convince them that their religion is false. Especially if you are not trying to convince them that a different religion is true.
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Postby Jucdor on Thu May 04, 2006 9:46 am

Why would I want to convince someone that there is no god? Being an atheist or believer is not a value in itself. I know that particularly for religious people believing in the divine is crucial part of their identity & why on Earth would I want to attack someones identity? Besides all I can do anyhow is to help people build an enlightened belief system of some sort where they know which things are fact and which are matter of faith. But I am not here to persuade anyone. I'm here to so that all of us can learn how our innerworld is build & if there is something to fix. If someone convince me that there is a god, then I am ready to believe that or at least I wish to see myself as one that is ready to believe that. Conversation in itself has a value to me. Particularly when we're talking about people I know. I want to know who I know. What makes them who they are. And in the process I wish to be there to provide tools how people can fix their worldview if they see it needs such. And I know that you, WinterTwilight, are not listened that easily from the "other" camp as your conversation style is more aggressive & less ready to hear what the others have to say. If I wasn't ready to respond to a religious argument with a religious argument then I would be stuck to have a conversation about existance of god. But as I see such a thing as secondary goal, I prefer to talk more widely about subjects. For instance I would be delighted to know what sort of belief system fishfleas has & then I could argue wether or not he believes in a god he claims he believes.

In a way I see that people's (including me) world view is a colourful circle. Now I want to know what sort of colours are there in the circle and if there are holes as there always is, then help fill those holes. What I don't find interesting is the debate wether a square worldview is better than circle one. But in the process when we fill those holes, I would love to create an athmosphere where - by filling those holes, cicle could turn out to be a square. And I know enough psychology that if I say that "Invading Iraq was a idiotic thing and all Americans are gay" then all I manage to do is get all the Americans upset and on their backfeet where they most definitely are not ready to listen to me.


WintersTwilight wrote:You have argued against religion, but you have not put forth an arguement against God or against the moral law. I doubt that you will convince many of your point of view by simply reciting a few pieces of history. If there is no numinous then there is no religion. But if all you can do is talk about a couple of historical points, you have said nothing about the numinous. As long as a God exists, you will not be able to disprove religion in general.


Which is not my intention either. And although I know it is your intention I know that you're not going to succeed either. If your goal is to destroy people's belief system, they will only hold on to it more firmly. But if your goal is to help people see what are facts and what are not, then there is a ground that even the zealots can be brought more to this world. As I said, God is imporant part of people's identity and if you're going to take that away then you need to put something to replace it. And most often science is not the issue. The issue is that people need to have a meaning for their lives, people need to have a purpose & they need there to be something that will make the good things in life to beat all the shitty things that happen in the world. And science rarely can do that.


It also seems that you insist that Christian history is flawed or wrong. Yet you also insist that your history is correct.

What my history? I've been only talking about history as a science (which it indeed is). And there are certain ways how science is done.


It seems that we believe in history either by experiance or by authority. Since this goes back long before any of our experiances, we must base our beliefs on authority. You have eliminated all possiblity that Christian history could be true. At least in my opinion, if you go into a debate with a closed mind, you will not learn much and probably will not teach much. Humanity is not perfect, and we must be open the to possibility that any of us could be wrong.


No, I haven't eliminated that Christian history could be true. I said it quite clearly that on most things concerning the event in Bible, we cannot know for sure. Probably never will. For instance when I earlier wrote about the Period of War Chariots in Middle East, the fact that we don't know what happened back then doesn't mean that nothing happened. Most definitely there was a lot of things going on, but we just don't know it. And the word know is the issue here. We may freely believe that Jesus did all that the Bible said he did, but at the moment we cannot know that he did them. That still doesn't mean that we would know that he didn't do them. I haven't got a Bible at reach right now, but sure there are events that can be dismissed as probably untrue (big events leave "footprints" elsewhere and if there are no other sources other than Bible, then such a thing is probably not true). And this should be beared in mind.

Still, if you can not convince someone that there is no God, then it is unlikely that you will be able to convince them that their religion is false. Especially if you are not trying to convince them that a different religion is true.

As I said, my intention wasn't to have a boring debate where there is only two key aspects - A) God exist and B) God doesn't exist. I on the other hand believe that if you do such a division then you're more likely to divide the people in groups as well, which indeed is my primary goal. Religion is bad when it is seen as dividing aspect. Religion is good when it is seen as uniting aspect. Sure often there is in religion the good aspect, but in global world the bad aspects win. So naturally I don't wish to power up the division, but minimise the dividing aspect. If we see the world where there are muslims, christians, atheists, buddhists etc. etc. etc. then we are, once again in a world that is divided in rivalling camps. But if muslims are let to be muslims, christians christians and so forth & still feel like we're one big happy family then we may have a peaceful world. So I don't want to claim anyone that I'm somehow superior or that muslims are stupid to believe in Allah or anything like that. I want to know how people think, what their identities are build on, and help fill up any holes that come up. In the process I know I can fill up holes in my own thinking as well.

So to explain my writing instead of explaining my motives - There are things that can be proved even in history. There are things that are likely in history and so forth. What I as a history student wanted to point out is that religious people often neglect history and believe something as historical fact just because it says so in the Bible. Which is not the way history is done in any book, event, people or whatever. There are pretty good methods to research things & most importantly there is the world wide scientific debate that can shoot down any claims that are not true.
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Postby WintersTwilight on Thu May 04, 2006 11:16 am

And I know that you, WinterTwilight, are not listened that easily from the "other" camp as your conversation style is more aggressive & less ready to hear what the others have to say.


I am in fact very ready to hear what others have to say. The concern that I was voicing was that you have not seemed to succeed in saying anything of relevance. Or so it is in my opinion, and I hope that you do not take offense of it.

And although I know it is your intention I know that you're not going to succeed either. If your goal is to destroy people's belief system, they will only hold on to it more firmly.


Actually, my intention is not to destroy anyone's belief system. I was hoping that I could possibly help those who have their beliefs not based on anything. I am in fact a Christian, and am not trying to argue against religion at all. I was actually trying to make an apology for the existance of God, but no one seemed interested.

As I said, my intention wasn't to have a boring debate where there is only two key aspects - A) God exist and B) God doesn't exist.


I did not know that you thought this a boring debate. The existance of God is, in my opinion, the most interesting debate there is. If you refuse to debate this issue, then I am afraid that I can do no further good.
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Postby KoolBak on Thu May 04, 2006 11:36 am

What the hell, I'll play too.......first off, I am an optimistic agnostic I guess, not that it matters. Graduated from a Brothers of the Holy Cross private catholic colege (Notre Dame sister school), not that it matters.

I really enjoy Winter's writings...very nice.

In my humble opinoin, there is no debate. Religion is SUPPOSED to be a structure upon one bases their FAITH; faith is all that matters and has nothing to do with ones belief in science...completely seperate. Faith is, in theory, what one uses to become a better person / interact morally with society / embrace agape.

Unfortunately, this is harldy ever the case...oh well.

Does science exist? Yes. Does God exist? It doesn't fucking matter what I think - your faith is all that does for you, and mine is all that does for me.

Thanks - that's my spin!
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Postby Jucdor on Thu May 04, 2006 12:13 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:I am in fact very ready to hear what others have to say. The concern that I was voicing was that you have not seemed to succeed in saying anything of relevance. Or so it is in my opinion, and I hope that you do not take offense of it.


Fair enough. I think facts are relevant. My opinion is that even belief has to respect facts.

Actually, my intention is not to destroy anyone's belief system. I was hoping that I could possibly help those who have their beliefs not based on anything. I am in fact a Christian, and am not trying to argue against religion at all. I was actually trying to make an apology for the existance of God, but no one seemed interested.


Well if the discussion is limited to circle around God's existance then it is obvious that there are only two worthy opinions - he exists or he doesn't. And that is quite limiting and to my experience not very good ground to continue a debate long.

However I ran into hasty conclusion I admit. I read too much about you in the brief debate you had with fishfleas and I realise that it is evident that you didn't even say such things that my conclusions were. Sorry about that.

But now I didn't get what you meant with "making an apology for the existance of God." Care to clarify that sentence?

I did not know that you thought this a boring debate. The existance of God is, in my opinion, the most interesting debate there is. If you refuse to debate this issue, then I am afraid that I can do no further good.


No, this isn't a boring debate. What I meant was that if the discussion is limited to a mere existance of God then it's very restraining debate & not very fruitful in the long term.

I see things that to fully understand them you need to circle around them. Up, down, left, right, front & rear. All over again to see how things look like. As I've understood, you wanted to just go into the heart of things without the circlying around part at all. So it's not like we disagree on the topic, but on the method of discussion.
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Postby rocksolid on Thu May 04, 2006 12:58 pm

Jucdor, I think WT meant apology in a sense that most English speakers aren't aware of - this is from Merriam-Webster online - "APOLOGIA (apology) implies not admission of guilt or regret but a desire to make clear the grounds for some course, belief, or position."
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Postby WintersTwilight on Thu May 04, 2006 1:36 pm

That is exactly what I meant. Thank you, Rocksolid.
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Postby RabbitCold on Thu May 04, 2006 4:18 pm

hey nate :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby RabbitCold on Thu May 04, 2006 4:18 pm

OMG ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Flaming you for life!!! NOOBZZ SIW :shock: 8) :o :lol:
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Postby RabbitCold on Thu May 04, 2006 4:27 pm

Is this the right thread to flame? I dont like to impose on anyone...but yeah im like at school and bored and this was the thinkg that popped up in the off topic stuff...didnt want to ruin anyones game...PLZ dont kick :?: :?: :arrow: :arrow: :lol: 8) :shock:
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Postby WintersTwilight on Thu May 04, 2006 6:32 pm

I will try to rephrase the sentance. "I was actually trying to make a case to show why I believe in the existance of God, but no one seemed interested."
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Postby HighBorn on Thu May 04, 2006 6:50 pm

WintersTwilight wrote:I will try to rephrase the sentance. "I was actually trying to make a case to show why I believe in the existance of God, but no one seemed interested."


I enjoyed it... i just didnt feel smart enough to quote after each :oops: ...lol
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Postby 2dimes on Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:47 am

I can't wait to read this one somewhere in here "Man is compared to chickens".
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:06 am

PaperPlunger wrote:Here's a fun one: "Religion v. Evolution, which one is real? Or are they both?" let's argue over it!


My brother would disagree with me, but I don't see these as being mutually exclusive either. I mean take a peasant farmer from the Middle Ages. Suggesting that if he breeds this strong dog with that fast dog he might get a pup that is strong and fast probably wouldn't give him a problem.

But say "Hey, you know you're kind of like God to those dogs." or "You just proved that God doesn't exist because you meddled with creation". Then he might reply "Bllllllaaaaaaaaaaassssssssphemer!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Kind of oversimplified, but see my point?
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Postby lusi on Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:44 am

I agree with Lack completely!

Science and Religion and two separate entities.
Generally most are looking for answers to questions and perhaps need that sense of reality in order to believe it actually exists. We need to know how things work and why - continuously questioning our abilities and surroundings - Science.

If you believe in a religion, you dont have that need to question, you dont need proof of life per se or why He did this and that - you accept the decision.
I support both! :wink:
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Postby unriggable on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:43 am

lusi wrote:I agree with Lack completely!

Science and Religion and two separate entities.
Generally most are looking for answers to questions and perhaps need that sense of reality in order to believe it actually exists. We need to know how things work and why - continuously questioning our abilities and surroundings - Science.

If you believe in a religion, you dont have that need to question, you dont need proof of life per se or why He did this and that - you accept the decision.
I support both! :wink:


Science and religion aren't two things that cant be together harmoniously UNLESS you take things written in the bible literally, which in my opinion you shouldn't (it's not a biography is a series of stories with morals of what to do and what not to do).
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Postby Xayath on Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:48 am

odd
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Postby Backglass on Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:04 am

WintersTwilight wrote: Have I missed something, or have we already concluded that a Divine Being exists?


You have only concluded that divine beings exist, by explaining away morality as something that must be deity inspired. I believe that the ability to have compassion for ones fellow man is a human trait with no supernatural influence needed.
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Postby SirSebstar on Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:12 am

Freakshow stated that science is better then religion, partly because religion does harm.

You could reverse that. Religion, in one form or another, helps to form communities. Religion is the ties that bind them effectivly to eachothe and give common ground for a value system that enabels a community to survive.
In that sense i dont see much wrong with religion even though i approach religion as a crutch for the masses.

Blind Faith is a problem, wether it´s based on religious or scientific fact. As an example the ´suprematie´ of the german race was supposedly based on scientific facts ( even though we now know there is and was none). On that basis horrible things were done. Ofcourse you could argue that where scientific fact is left for a dogma, you will have faith(religion) instead of science, but in that case this discussion is quickly over. Anything negative we count on religion..

I think of religion as a way of thinking about the fundaments of live and its meaning and getting a result that reads there has to be something out there.
I see Science as a way of asking questions as to why and how something does or does not work.

In thats respect science and religion as mutually exclusive, yet they can co-excist in a form where religion gives a (comferting) awnser on why we are here and what our purpose is (to sustain a sense of community for the sake of that communities survival) and science can help us with day to day scientific facts. The universe does not turn around earth and hell does not lies beneath the earth....

I do believe science can never solve every riddle out there. I dont think it needs to. Religion has a function in my view. But in my view it only has a function as long as we mankind as not far enough to walk without that crutch. However, in the past religion has granted us a better chance of survival and a sense of community that we as mankind need and needed to survive. SO yes, it has its purpose, and it will have one for the comming years...

But all the above it just my personal view.
I hope it was not to much to read
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Postby unriggable on Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:05 pm

I still think that the only god is the god inside each and every one of us, the one who passes judgement.
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Postby Anarkistsdream on Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:06 pm

unriggable wrote:I still think that the only god is the god inside each and every one of us, the one who passes judgement.


I have a hearty agreement in that, although I'm sure the core beliefs differ, that is a great way to describe my own beliefs...
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