Racist accusations just a political strategy

[PLAYER57832]

There's no racism in that poster.

... and this is why this thread is doomed to end in a stalemate, because even when you're shown photographic evidence of flagrantly racist 'black man = monkey' signs, you stick your head back in the sand and refuse to see the problem.

Where did that poster say "black man = monkey"? "Monkey see, monkey do" has been a saying much longer than I have been alive. It's not my fault that liberals are twisting common phrases into claims of racism. It's a false argument that the public sees right through, and is sad that people actually think they can rationally make.

Are you honestly suggesting that you feel that its just accidental use of the phrase, Monkey see, monkey do?

Accidental? The phrase "monkey see, monkey do" is a VERY common phrase, one that my father used all the time referring to my brother and I, who did a lot of stupid things together.

Yes, I have used it, so has my family. BUT, in this case.. that is just not the same context. "Monkey see, monkey do" is when your brother does something and you have to also. That is not truly what happened here by any context, though I realize conservatives are trying to twist it that way.

Further, even if that one kid with that one sign did simply "make a mistake", other refences are impossible to consider such a mistake. I mean, I saw earlier you tried to say that the witch doctor sign was "not racist". What it really shows, I am sorry to say, is that you wish to ignore the implications of these statements, not that the statements had no racist implication.

Similarly, references to blacks as monkeys is so well engrained, commonly used, only someone who has no knowledge of our history can possibly believe it is "cooincidental". Sorry, but that is how it is. It is little different than ideas that Jews are "grubby money -grabbers" or "have long noses"... that hispanis are "beaners", etc. "Honkey, buy contrast is not the same, mostly because it was only barely popular for a short time, popularized mostly by a couple of TV shows. It's not because blacks aren't racist. Truth is that black slander of whites is and always has been far more subtle, because it had to be. For example, many old slave songs bear references to the white overseers and such.

[Woodruff]

Oh my God, man! Talk about dishonesty! Rather than answer my questions, which are very direct and to the point, you're now going to back away and claim that I am simply not understanding the subtleties of the conversation? You're a god-damned coward, AAFitz...and a pathetic one at that.

You are welcome to think so. But as I said, its clear to be from your questions, that you dont fully grasp what I said

So because I stridently disagree with your conclusions, I cannot possibly have grasped what you said? What a load of cowardly horseshit, AAFitz. Seriously...that is pathetic.

[PLAYER57832]

No, they're comparing OBAMA to a monkey, not any black man to a monkey. There's a huge difference that apparently is being ignored. Yes, painting an entire group of people as something they are not is wrong, but comparing Obama to a monkey is the exact same thing liberals did to Bush. I guess these images show nothing about race only because they attack Bush?

NO, those images were just not circulated the same way that these photos and images of Obama are, have been. THAT is the primary difference.

Second, yes, when you hurl a racist epithat at someone who is black, you DO have to consider that it will have racist implications. The thing about the reverse is that there really are no true parallels with whites, at least that I have seen. The reason is not lack of black racism, it is that blacks have had to be far more subtle in what they say and do, becuase they would be harshly "reprimanded"/attacked if they were as overt as some whites.

[PLAYER57832]

There's no racism in that poster.

... and this is why this thread is doomed to end in a stalemate, because even when you're shown photographic evidence of flagrantly racist 'black man = monkey' signs, you stick your head back in the sand and refuse to see the problem.

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

[Woodruff]

Accidental? The phrase "monkey see, monkey do" is a VERY common phrase, one that my father used all the time referring to my brother and I, who did a lot of stupid things together.

Yes, I have used it, so has my family. BUT, in this case.. that is just not the same context. "Monkey see, monkey do" is when your brother does something and you have to also. That is not truly what happened here by any context, though I realize conservatives are trying to twist it that way.

Hey, I can completely agree that this is a case of conservatives trying to twist what is happening. I wouldn't argue that at all...that's typically what signage of that nature does, after all.

Further, even if that one kid with that one sign did simply "make a mistake", other refences are impossible to consider such a mistake. I mean, I saw earlier you tried to say that the witch doctor sign was "not racist". What it really shows, I am sorry to say, is that you wish to ignore the implications of these statements, not that the statements had no racist implication.

Oh brother.

Similarly, references to blacks as monkeys is so well engrained, commonly used, only someone who has no knowledge of our history can possibly believe it is "cooincidental". Sorry, but that is how it is.

I understand that historically, the terms "monkey" and "porchmonkey" were used in that way. I still maintain that without the picture of the monkey having some similarity to Obama IN ANY WAY that it was not intended in that manner and was simply a decoration aimed at the phrase.

Surely you people realize that I'm not exactly one to stand united with Night Strike, right? Some in these fora have even had the gall to call me a race-baiter, so I'm clearly not one who blindly refuses to see racism when it is present. It just frankly is not present in this case unless someone wants it to be or expects it to be...the presumption is all yours.

[AAFitz]

Oh my God, man! Talk about dishonesty! Rather than answer my questions, which are very direct and to the point, you're now going to back away and claim that I am simply not understanding the subtleties of the conversation? You're a god-damned coward, AAFitz...and a pathetic one at that.

You are welcome to think so. But as I said, its clear to be from your questions, that you dont fully grasp what I said

So because I stridently disagree with your conclusions, I cannot possibly have grasped what you said? What a load of cowardly horseshit, AAFitz. Seriously...that is pathetic.

No, you are free to disagree. In fact, this post is a perfect example of you not understanding. The reason I feel you have not grasped what I was explaining, was that your questions did not make sense, and made it clear you were not grasping the point I was making. It has nothing to do with the fact that you happen to disagree with me. Again, maybe its horseshit, or even cowardly horseshit as you suggest, but Its simply the reason I am not wasting time answering questions that misinterpreted what I already wrote. If you cant understand what I was writing, so be it, but its not my problem, but again, my thoughts and reasoning are all there. Take them for what they are worth, as I did your opinions on the subject.

[Woodruff]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

[Woodruff]

Oh my God, man! Talk about dishonesty! Rather than answer my questions, which are very direct and to the point, you're now going to back away and claim that I am simply not understanding the subtleties of the conversation? You're a god-damned coward, AAFitz...and a pathetic one at that.

You are welcome to think so. But as I said, its clear to be from your questions, that you dont fully grasp what I said

So because I stridently disagree with your conclusions, I cannot possibly have grasped what you said? What a load of cowardly horseshit, AAFitz. Seriously...that is pathetic.

No, you are free to disagree. In fact, this post is a perfect example of you not understanding. The reason I feel you have not grasped what I was explaining, was that your questions did not make sense, and made it clear you were not grasping the point I was making. It has nothing to do with the fact that you happen to disagree with me. Again, maybe its horseshit, or even cowardly horseshit as you suggest, but Its simply the reason I am not wasting time answering questions that misinterpreted what I already wrote. If you cant understand what I was writing, so be it, but its not my problem, but again, my thoughts and reasoning are all there. Take them for what they are worth, as I did your opinions on the subject.

I notice you didn't answer my questions - scared of them, coward?

[PLAYER57832]

rofl, far more conservatives are racist???? You got to be kidding me. Or does racism not apply if you hate your own skin colour? Most liberals being white, and not liking/been racist against whites. Or at very best, having the tendency to view any white act with deep suspicion and any black act with fondness and rose coloured glasses.

NO, it just means you have no clue as to what really happens in this world. Yes, conservatives ABSOLUTELY contain more racists than liberals. In fact, it is part of the entire definitin of being liberal, though I suspect you have been lead to believe "liberal" means "wanting big government". NO, liberal means tolerant, among other things. It is a fundamental issue. It was definitely NOT conservatives who lead the rallies and marches of the 60's and 70's. I realize conservatives are now trying to rewrite history, but this goes way, way too far.

[PLAYER57832]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

Oh PLEASE! It was an anti-Obama rally!

[AAFitz]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

So you are arguing that you think that is just a random doodle perhaps, and that the monkey is not meant to be obama? Now, do you honestly think that if you ask the person that actually made the sign, that they would even be so silly as to suggest it was not? Again, arguing plausible deniabilty has been a common tactic used by racists for years. Luckily, its a thin one that most, but obviously not all, can see through.

[PLAYER57832]

I understand that historically, the terms "monkey" and "porchmonkey" were used in that way. I still maintain that without the picture of the monkey having some similarity to Obama IN ANY WAY that it was not intended in that manner and was simply a decoration aimed at the phrase.

Surely you people realize that I'm not exactly one to stand united with Night Strike, right? Some in these fora have even had the gall to call me a race-baiter, so I'm clearly not one who blindly refuses to see racism when it is present. It just frankly is not present in this case unless someone wants it to be or expects it to be...the presumption is all yours.

While I certainly do not put you in the realm of Nightstrike and definitely don't believe you to be intentionally racist, in this case.. I think you need to look into things a bit more before deciding that the rest of us are just looney. And on that, I rest.

[Woodruff]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

Oh PLEASE! It was an anti-Obama rally!

So you don't believe that there's a reasonable chance that the young man decorated the sign in a way that referred to the phrase used on that sign? Seriously? Because it's not unusual at all to do so. As I said, if there were any resemblance to Obama at all, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you...it's common enough in other pictures we've seen. It just doesn't work here, because it is absolutely presumption on your part - you are seeing only what you expect to see, rather than looking at what is actually there.

[Woodruff]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

"Said some horseshit I didn't bother to read"

f*ck off, coward.

[PLAYER57832]

The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.

I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.

THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

So you are arguing that you think that is just a random doodle perhaps, and that the monkey is not meant to be obama? Now, do you honestly think that if you ask the person that actually made the sign, that they would even be so silly as to suggest it was not? Again, arguing plausible deniabilty has been a common tactic used by racists for years. Luckily, its a thin one that most, but obviously not all, can see through.

I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.

I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.