Racist accusations just a political strategy

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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:34 am

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.


I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.


THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?


So you are arguing that you think that is just a random doodle perhaps, and that the monkey is not meant to be obama? Now, do you honestly think that if you ask the person that actually made the sign, that they would even be so silly as to suggest it was not? Again, arguing plausible deniabilty has been a common tactic used by racists for years. Luckily, its a thin one that most, but obviously not all, can see through.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:35 am

Woodruff wrote: I understand that historically, the terms "monkey" and "porchmonkey" were used in that way. I still maintain that without the picture of the monkey having some similarity to Obama IN ANY WAY that it was not intended in that manner and was simply a decoration aimed at the phrase.

Surely you people realize that I'm not exactly one to stand united with Night Strike, right? Some in these fora have even had the gall to call me a race-baiter, so I'm clearly not one who blindly refuses to see racism when it is present. It just frankly is not present in this case unless someone wants it to be or expects it to be...the presumption is all yours.

While I certainly do not put you in the realm of Nightstrike and definitely don't believe you to be intentionally racist, in this case.. I think you need to look into things a bit more before deciding that the rest of us are just looney. And on that, I rest.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:36 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.


I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.


THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?

Oh PLEASE! It was an anti-Obama rally!


So you don't believe that there's a reasonable chance that the young man decorated the sign in a way that referred to the phrase used on that sign? Seriously? Because it's not unusual at all to do so. As I said, if there were any resemblance to Obama at all, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you...it's common enough in other pictures we've seen. It just doesn't work here, because it is absolutely presumption on your part - you are seeing only what you expect to see, rather than looking at what is actually there.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:37 am

AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.


I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.


THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?


"Said some horseshit I didn't bother to read"


f*ck off, coward.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:38 am

AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.


I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.


THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?


So you are arguing that you think that is just a random doodle perhaps, and that the monkey is not meant to be obama? Now, do you honestly think that if you ask the person that actually made the sign, that they would even be so silly as to suggest it was not? Again, arguing plausible deniabilty has been a common tactic used by racists for years. Luckily, its a thin one that most, but obviously not all, can see through.

I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.

I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:43 am

Woodruff wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Oh my God, man! Talk about dishonesty! Rather than answer my questions, which are very direct and to the point, you're now going to back away and claim that I am simply not understanding the subtleties of the conversation? You're a god-damned coward, AAFitz...and a pathetic one at that.


You are welcome to think so. But as I said, its clear to be from your questions, that you dont fully grasp what I said


So because I stridently disagree with your conclusions, I cannot possibly have grasped what you said? What a load of cowardly horseshit, AAFitz. Seriously...that is pathetic.


No, you are free to disagree. In fact, this post is a perfect example of you not understanding. The reason I feel you have not grasped what I was explaining, was that your questions did not make sense, and made it clear you were not grasping the point I was making. It has nothing to do with the fact that you happen to disagree with me. Again, maybe its horseshit, or even cowardly horseshit as you suggest, but Its simply the reason I am not wasting time answering questions that misinterpreted what I already wrote. If you cant understand what I was writing, so be it, but its not my problem, but again, my thoughts and reasoning are all there. Take them for what they are worth, as I did your opinions on the subject.


I notice you didn't answer my questions - scared of them, coward?


This is another example of why I did not answer your question. The question "am I scared" clearly shows you did not understand the reason I clearly posted for not answering your questions, which quite simply was, that I felt they were dumb questions, and not worth reading, let alone answering. However, by all means go back and read what I wrote. If you have an intelligent question that youd like to ask, I promise to read it and consider answering it, if I dont feel I already have.

There is no doubt this may be self righteous, or maybe even arrogant, but as I said, has nothing to do with any fear other than the fear of wasting any time on them. In the end, I offer all of it simply as my opinion on the subject, and for the reasons I have already given. You are free, and literally meant to judge those opinions as you will. If you consider posting opinions, especially strong ones on a subject like this as cowardly....again, feel free. No doubt my opinion of the meaning of courage differs from yours as well, and there too, I will waste no time explaining something I expect you cannot understand.

If you consider it cowardly to simply ignore irrelevant questions as cowardly, you are free to do that as well. I simply consider it to be a time management issue. Differing opinions is what makes the forum a forum in the end though, is it not. :D
Last edited by AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:48 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The word monkey cannot possibly be used without you believing it's a reference to a black man? It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem here.


I won't say "never", no, but you do have to be pretty careful about. "Grease monkey", for example would probably be fine.. almost a compliment when referring to mechanics (or at least not really an insult). Talking about a youngster who "climbs like a monkey" is probably OK, etc. However, yes, putting a picture of Obama = monkey on a sign is going to have many other implications and ignoring that is, well.. being ignorant in the full meaning of the word.


THERE WAS NO PICTURE OF "OBAMA=MONKEY" ON THAT SIGN! WHERE DOES THAT MONKEY HAVE ANY RESEMBLANCE AT ALL TO OBAMA?


So you are arguing that you think that is just a random doodle perhaps, and that the monkey is not meant to be obama? Now, do you honestly think that if you ask the person that actually made the sign, that they would even be so silly as to suggest it was not? Again, arguing plausible deniabilty has been a common tactic used by racists for years. Luckily, its a thin one that most, but obviously not all, can see through.

I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.

I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.


Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.

As far as the picture and the phrase, yes, that of course is obviously racist, and even purposefully so. That part I do agree with you on.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:52 am

AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.
I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.


Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism is will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.


Then again, when you spend your resources fighting against flittering ghosts instead of fighting against your enemy, can you really win?
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:56 am

This thread is completely and totally inane now. Why don't you guys quit and talk about something with some level of intelligence?
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:58 am

Woodruff wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.
I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.


Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism is will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.


Then again, when you spend your resources fighting against flittering ghosts instead of fighting against your enemy, can you really win?


My enemy? Flittering ghosts? spending my resources? Again, I hope you dont mind if I dont answer this one for the same reasons as the others.

I will however, say that I dont believe in ghosts, flittering or otherwise, or fight against them. I admit, that is one answer I did not cover in this thread. It seems a little off topic to me though.
Last edited by AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:04 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:This thread is completely and totally inane now. Why don't you guys quit and talk about something with some level of intelligence?


Sure thing, though my thoughts are pretty clear. I think the sign and used of the phrase used was completely racist, meant to be racist, and that those defending it are either simply wrong, or purposefully ignoring its racist comment for many reasons which I explained in detail.

Did you have something to add, other than that you don't agree with what we are discussing, which right now, I admit is simply me explaining that Im not wasting time answering questions I simply dont feel like answering.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Night Strike on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:07 pm

Alright, let's take another look at the poster.
Click image to enlarge.
image


"Obamanomics" CLEARLY indicates that the individual is referring to the economic policies of Obama, his administration, and his supporters in Congress. When it comes to economic policies of the president, who gives a flying f*** about what race he/she is????? His economic policies of spending were clearly mimicking the spending policies of Bush, which is why the sign says what it does. Race is irrelevant in economics (unless you're talking about reparations) as economic policies affect people, not races.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:13 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I don't believe that is Woodruff's implication, that it was "just a random doodle". But, I believe he wishes to say it is just a twist of a common phrase without any racist implications.
I..and you, disagree, but I don't think arguing further will get us anywhere.


Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism is will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.


Then again, when you spend your resources fighting against flittering ghosts instead of fighting against your enemy, can you really win?


My enemy? Flittering ghosts? spending my resources? Again, I hope you dont mind if I dont answer this one for the same reasons as the others.


Of course, I wouldn't expect you to answer anything I ask. The tail between your legs is probably wrapped up so tight it's covering your eyes.

AAFitz wrote:I will however, say that I dont believe in ghosts, flittering or otherwise, or fight against them. I admit, that is one answer I did not cover in this thread. It seems a little off topic to me though.


It was a reference to the fact that you're spending your time railing against something that (I'll try to be fair) might or might not be racism instead of tackling clear racism. It's not like there aren't PLENTY of signs out there with it on them. I'm not saying the subtleties/trickeries aren't important, because they are. But if you're spending all your time trying to tackle ghosts (seeing racism where it isn't) rather than tackling your enemies (racists), then you're not going to win. You're wasting your resources (this fora).
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:26 pm

AAFitz wrote:[
Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.

As far as the picture and the phrase, yes, that of course is obviously racist, and even purposefully so. That part I do agree with you on.

The thing is I don't believe Woodward is intentionally racist and to paint him as such serves no purpose, becuase it is a false accusation and he will therefore defend it as such. To say that he might need to look into this issue a bit more, might be ignorant of some aspects, etc .. that is far more beneficial than trying to paint him in a racist corner.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:27 pm

Night Strike wrote:Alright, let's take another look at the poster.
Click image to enlarge.
image


"Obamanomics" CLEARLY indicates that the individual is referring to the economic policies of Obama, his administration, and his supporters in Congress. When it comes to economic policies of the president, who gives a flying f*** about what race he/she is????? His economic policies of spending were clearly mimicking the spending policies of Bush, which is why the sign says what it does. Race is irrelevant in economics (unless you're talking about reparations) as economic policies affect people, not races.


I agree, one should not care about the race. The point here is however, that the people who made the poster are clearly trying to highlight that race in a negative way.

They are doing so by morphing a common phrase, and coupling it with a long used monkey=black person=lesser person racist theme, that has been used quite often. In this case, its clear it is obama himself the poster is attacking, and clear that the only reason the phrase monkey see, monkey spend was used, was to associate the idea of obama being a monkey.

The reason this is obvious, is because the poster would simply not make much sense if obama was white, because the phrase simply lacks the meaning of the original phrase, in both meaning and sentiment.

What is clear is that the main point of the poster, is to equate obama with a monkey, and because he is black. I myself would go so far as to suggest that most carrying such a poster, would even be honest about this, and go so far as to concede it directly.

Further, while it can be explained with some plausible deniability, however thin, that its just a coincidence that Obama happens to be black, and that the word monkey is often used as a racist term with black people, and that the picture of the monkey is next to the word obamanomics....I think its naive to do so at best, and reprehensible at worst, because it is defending something that was created to be overtly racist, while perhaps trying to camoflage it with a common phrase, that was only changed, for a convenient opportunity to post a racist slur.

As far as suggesting the sign was comparing Obama to Bush, is simply laughable, and over the line of plausible deniability and into the realm of delusion, or more precisely outright dishonesty.

Its all semantics meant to try to justify a racist poster in the end, and not a very good job of it at that. Its just too bad some are fooled by such things, and continue to fuel racial tension, when there really are a great number of problems that need attention. Unfortunately, outright racism cannot be ignored, because if it is, it thrives, and in many parts of the country and political arenas, it is by all means, allowed to do just that thrive. I thank my parents so much for having the courage to fight such things, and stand up against such evils, because I know very easily, with just slightly different teachings and attitudes, I could have ended up being one of these racist cowards that somehow believed they were better, because they simply happened to be born in a certain place, or of a certain race.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Night Strike on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:32 pm

AAFitz wrote:They are doing so by morphing a common phrase, and coupling it with a long used monkey=black person=lesser person racist theme, that has been used quite often. In this case, its clear it is obama himself the poster is attacking, and clear that the only reason the phrase monkey see, monkey spend was used, was to associate the idea of obama being a monkey.

The reason this is obvious, is because the poster would simply not make much sense if obama was white, because the phrase simply lacks the meaning of the original phrase, in both meaning and sentiment.


How can a common phrase meaning "to follow the actions of another blindly" be changed when the phrase itself has ALWAYS included the animal "monkey"???? What animal should have been put in place to convey the same meaning? You can't morph a common phrase using the word "monkey" into a racial epithet when "monkey" was in the original text. That's NOT the text that morphed.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:[
Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.

As far as the picture and the phrase, yes, that of course is obviously racist, and even purposefully so. That part I do agree with you on.

The thing is I don't believe Woodward is intentionally racist and to paint him as such serves no purpose, becuase it is a false accusation and he will therefore defend it as such. To say that he might need to look into this issue a bit more, might be ignorant of some aspects, etc .. that is far more beneficial than trying to paint him in a racist corner.


Honestly, I know exactly what you meant. I simply used your post for a little grandstanding, and its so obvious I dont even mind pointing it out for the less acute who may have not seen it as what it was.

As far as me suggesting or painting woodward as a racist, I do not believe I did. I believe the person who made the poster was necessarily racist......or...beyond naive and ignorant beyond belief....and only that those who are defending the poster, are either wrong, or racists...in fact...I believe I used very nearly those exact words. Personally I would venture to guess that woodward may even be less racist than myself. I try very hard not to be or say racist, but I think anyone would be lying to say they do not have any racist tendencies at all, and while I fully rally against those tendencies, I am not about to say I am completely free from them....
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:49 pm

Night Strike wrote:
AAFitz wrote:They are doing so by morphing a common phrase, and coupling it with a long used monkey=black person=lesser person racist theme, that has been used quite often. In this case, its clear it is obama himself the poster is attacking, and clear that the only reason the phrase monkey see, monkey spend was used, was to associate the idea of obama being a monkey.

The reason this is obvious, is because the poster would simply not make much sense if obama was white, because the phrase simply lacks the meaning of the original phrase, in both meaning and sentiment.


How can a common phrase meaning "to follow the actions of another blindly" be changed when the phrase itself has ALWAYS included the animal "monkey"???? What animal should have been put in place to convey the same meaning? You can't morph a common phrase using the word "monkey" into a racial epithet when "monkey" was in the original text. That's NOT the text that morphed.


Its because the word monkey has been morphed into a racial epithet, and now can be considered racist in certain usages. And that usage is certainly when one is referring to a black person.

I agree that one can used the word monkey and not be racist, but because it has been so widely used as a racist term, so many times, and for so long, that it has become racist to use it in many situations. And this one is simply a perfect example, because the stupid pun its trying to make, quite frankly works only because Obama is black. If Obama was not black, there wouldnt even be a picture of the poster, because it wouldnt be racist, but more importantly wouldnt even be clever. Its very clear that the author fully intended it to be racist, because the use of the word monkey is so racially charged now, that using it, is racist de facto, because one knows that it will offend and therefore if used like this, is meant to do so.

The only possible use of this poster not being racist, would be that if the person didnt even realize that monkey was used to describe black people as such as a racial epithet, but its absolutely ridiculous to think this is the case, so the person knew 100% that it would be deemed as racist, and made it anyways, which is what makes it racist. That is what makes something racist....using a term that is meant as a racial slur. The word monkey means nothing by itself, but like all racial epithets, is now being used in a racist way.

But again, I know this is obvious, I know those using it are doing so intentionally, and I know its defense, and use is racist. I admit it can be argued, but if one is trying to judge it, one simply cannot reasonably assume the originator was not purposefully being racist when doing it. Its simply a ridiculous stretch of the imagination and I have no question the carrier of most posters would at least be honest enough to even admit it.

One cannot possibly assume that one would not think many people would get offended by this poster, which means that by displaying it, the offense was intended, and racist at its core. The message alone monkey see, monkey spend, without the racial aspect, makes it a bland and useless poster. The person carrying it, is the child of some pretty hardcore racists, and are simply low lifes for allowing their child to be anywhere near anything so inflamitory, let alone creating it in the first place.
Its nothing more that a quick trick to slide a racial slur into a poster. All the BS explanations and excuses will never wash away what is obvious for all, weather they choose to ignore it for whatever reason they feel is justified.
Last edited by AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:50 pm

AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:[
Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.

As far as the picture and the phrase, yes, that of course is obviously racist, and even purposefully so. That part I do agree with you on.

The thing is I don't believe Woodward is intentionally racist and to paint him as such serves no purpose, becuase it is a false accusation and he will therefore defend it as such. To say that he might need to look into this issue a bit more, might be ignorant of some aspects, etc .. that is far more beneficial than trying to paint him in a racist corner.


Honestly, I know exactly what you meant. I simply used your post for a little grandstanding, and its so obvious I dont even mind pointing it out for the less acute who may have not seen it as what it was.

As far as me suggesting or painting woodward as a racist, I do not believe I did. I believe the person who made the poster was necessarily racist......or...beyond naive and ignorant beyond belief....and only that those who are defending the poster, are either wrong, or racists...in fact...I believe I used very nearly those exact words. Personally I would venture to guess that woodward may even be less racist than myself. I try very hard not to be or say racist, but I think anyone would be lying to say they do not have any racist tendencies at all, and while I fully rally against those tendencies, I am not about to say I am completely free from them....

Fine, but then "agree to disagree". Right now, it seems to have gone from any sensible debate into just personnal attacks. I would hate to see either one of you reprimanded by admin!
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:52 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:This thread is completely and totally inane now. Why don't you guys quit and talk about something with some level of intelligence?


Sure thing, though my thoughts are pretty clear. I think the sign and used of the phrase used was completely racist, meant to be racist, and that those defending it are either simply wrong, or purposefully ignoring its racist comment for many reasons which I explained in detail.

Did you have something to add, other than that you don't agree with what we are discussing, which right now, I admit is simply me explaining that Im not wasting time answering questions I simply dont feel like answering.


It's not that i don't agree with what you're discussing - it's just that it's devolved into totally meaningless posts. It would be more useful if you guys put your intelligence behind something that actually matters.

It looks like you're wasting a lot of time on posts when you're trying to not waste time answering them...
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Night Strike wrote:
AAFitz wrote:They are doing so by morphing a common phrase, and coupling it with a long used monkey=black person=lesser person racist theme, that has been used quite often. In this case, its clear it is obama himself the poster is attacking, and clear that the only reason the phrase monkey see, monkey spend was used, was to associate the idea of obama being a monkey.

The reason this is obvious, is because the poster would simply not make much sense if obama was white, because the phrase simply lacks the meaning of the original phrase, in both meaning and sentiment.


How can a common phrase meaning "to follow the actions of another blindly" be changed when the phrase itself has ALWAYS included the animal "monkey"???? What animal should have been put in place to convey the same meaning? You can't morph a common phrase using the word "monkey" into a racial epithet when "monkey" was in the original text. That's NOT the text that morphed.


If that was their true intent, there ARE plenty of other sayings. Second, as several of us have pointed out, the context you wish to assert really just does not make much sense here, not really. Instead, it really does seem like a back-handed attempt to justify something.

.. and yes, morphing things is very much what political signs are all about. What is disturbing is less that someone would put up such... we all know there are racists everywhere. That you are defending this so strongly suggests.. something else.
There is a nother saying "he doth protesteth too much" that seems rather pertinent in this case.

Even so, I will say what I did to Woodruff, please educate yourself. It seems you made a brief search and found we were not utterly ridiculous, but I do suggest you go a bit further. The monkey=black is hardly an ancient or passing reference. It is a very, very long-standing association that few people miss.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:55 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:

It's not that i don't agree with what you're discussing - it's just that it's devolved into totally meaningless posts. It would be more useful if you guys put your intelligence behind something that actually matters.

It looks like you're wasting a lot of time on posts when you're trying to not waste time answering them...

Which is EXACTLY why so many use the "the other guy is just racist" attack technique. IT WORKS!
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby King Doctor on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:58 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:It's not that i don't agree with what you're discussing - it's just that it's devolved into totally meaningless posts. It would be more useful if you guys put your intelligence behind something that actually matters.

It looks like you're wasting a lot of time on posts when you're trying to not waste time answering them...


Thank you Mets, that was a very intelligent and helpful contribution to this thread. You have really brought a lot of new ideas to the table and advanced the dialogue that was occurring before your arrival.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby AAFitz on Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
AAFitz wrote:[
Well, there I must disagree with you. I believe arguing against racists will indeed get us further. Just as arguing about ending slavery eventually helped end slavery, I believe arguing against racists and racism will help end racism. What will not get us further is sitting back and allowing ignorance to thrive, and not posting against such obvious, and overt racism will only help to continue it. No doubt it will be a long fight, and a bitter one, and will mean suffering opinions that are so skewed and devoid of character, logic and intelligence at times as to be physically painful to have to read, but in the end, right will always triumph over wrong. Sometimes it just takes longer than it should.

As far as the picture and the phrase, yes, that of course is obviously racist, and even purposefully so. That part I do agree with you on.

The thing is I don't believe Woodward is intentionally racist and to paint him as such serves no purpose, becuase it is a false accusation and he will therefore defend it as such. To say that he might need to look into this issue a bit more, might be ignorant of some aspects, etc .. that is far more beneficial than trying to paint him in a racist corner.


Honestly, I know exactly what you meant. I simply used your post for a little grandstanding, and its so obvious I dont even mind pointing it out for the less acute who may have not seen it as what it was.

As far as me suggesting or painting woodward as a racist, I do not believe I did. I believe the person who made the poster was necessarily racist......or...beyond naive and ignorant beyond belief....and only that those who are defending the poster, are either wrong, or racists...in fact...I believe I used very nearly those exact words. Personally I would venture to guess that woodward may even be less racist than myself. I try very hard not to be or say racist, but I think anyone would be lying to say they do not have any racist tendencies at all, and while I fully rally against those tendencies, I am not about to say I am completely free from them....

Fine, but then "agree to disagree". Right now, it seems to have gone from any sensible debate into just personnal attacks. I would hate to see either one of you reprimanded by admin!


I have not made one personal attack at all, or at least not on anyone posting in here. At worst I have posted a few opinions of peoples posts. If Im going to be reprimanded by admin for saying that I feel racists are devoid of character, or that I feel someone defending that picture as anything but racist as devoid of character, as I feel it perpetuates racism, I cant honestly say I even care, any more than my dad cared about getting kicked of a bar because he was sitting in an army bar with a fellow black soldier....a few years after we beat Nazi Germany in WWII.

If admin decided that people posting in defense of that clearly and insidiously racist poster were not out of line, and that I was for my thoughts than so be it. That would not be the kind of bar Id want to drink at again myself anyways.
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Re: Racist accusations just a political strategy

Postby Night Strike on Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:12 pm

AAFitz wrote:Its because the word monkey has been morphed into a racial epithet, and now can be considered racist in certain usages. And that usage is certainly when one is referring to a black person.

I agree that one can used the word monkey and not be racist, but because it has been so widely used as a racist term, so many times, and for so long, that it has become racist to use it in many situations.


So you're allowing the racists to win the argument? When individuals are allowed to twist the meaning of words into something degrading of a person based on their race, those individuals win the argument every time. It's only when people stop looking at everything through the lens of race that racists lose their influence. When I read that poster, I immediately thought about how it meant that a person is blindly spending money. It just so happens that since the intended individual is black, everything has to be viewed through a lens of racism. Why doesn't everybody take off their racial glasses and look at the actual policies of the president?
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