Abortion

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Abortion is...

Murder
45
53%
Slavery
1
1%
Abortion
29
34%
Kittens are cute
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12%
 
Total votes : 85

Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:29 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
It's a question of morals, which are subjectively defined; therefore, whenever someone takes the position that ABORTION IS WRONG, DENY PEOPLE THE CHOICE TO DO THIS, then that someone assumes that they know what's best for everyone. That they somehow know the objective truth.

(By morals, I'm talking about morality in the normative sense.)


If one would like to (or has) described why people think it's wrong, then kudos to them

I have tried.
Abortion does not fit with my belief system. However, not everyone shares my values.

BUT, there are really 3 parts to this question.

#1 What is abortion?. Many who post do not realize that any loss of a pregnancy prior to 20 weeks is considered an "abortion". This includes "spontaneous abortions", commonly considered miscarriages AND "surgical abortion" (there are some other terms, but that's the basics, the most commonly used medical terms).

Most statistics.. those things you see trotted out about the numbers of babies killed, etc take the records for procedures. This includes a D & C, other procedures, which are often used BOTH to terminate a pregancy and to remove an already dead fetus.

Soooo... though almost all of you are quick to say "we don't include miscarriages"... the fact is they are not distinguished.

A "voluntary" or "elective" abortion is allowed up to 3 months. That time was picked for 3 reasons. Before that point, miscarriages are very, very common. (figures range from 20% to over 50%) and, because at that point, while there is something that looks physically like a tiny infant (about the size of a pea, with some variation), it is not considered to have the responses, etc that make us human. From a privacy perspective, it also makes sense because that is when many women begin to "show". (some never really do...)

AFTER 3 months, abortions are still allowed for a variety of reasons. You can say the reasons are too lenient or whatever, but they are not just "elective" or "voluntary" procedures. I do not want to get into that part. I mention it for clarity.

AFTER 20 weeks, the term is "still birth" and "induced labor" is more usually the term used than "abortion". Again, the induction can be for many reasons. At this point, hospitals do record deaths, etc. Even so, as with D & C and so forth, the more extreme right to lifers like to take statistics for procedures and not intent. So, for example, they will call an induced labor done because the mother was having an elevated blood pressure or other conditions that absolutely endanger the child and mother both, sometimes in a last-ditch attempt to possibly save the child, sometimes just to try and save the mother (knowing the child will not survive or has almost no chance to survive), "abortion". Most people would, when questioned say "no, that is not an abortion". Nevertheless, they will still often pull up statistics that do include such procedures because they don't bother actually investigating what the data means.

If you see references to "the holocaust", and such ... there is a very good chance the statistics they refer to include a lot of things just about everyone here (a few exceptions) rejects.

#2. Is death the worst thing for a child?I, many people argue "no". Having to live in constant pain is a line I might draw. Others might draw it elsewhere.

#3 Can society afford to let every child be born?.
This is the most heart-wrenching, the trickiest and the question the right wing utterly tries to ignore. The REAL truth is "no, we cannot".

Note, I am not talking about some esoteric "ecofreak" ideas about needing population control. (that is part of this for some people, but I want to set that aside for more immediate concerns right now). I am referring to what happens to kids who are born into homes where they are not wanted, where the parents are just "too busy" or preoccupied with their own issues to properly care for their children. Prisons are full of kids who, if we are honest, the world would be better off without. I do NOT believe we should tell people they cannot have children, but if they have made that decision themselves... I am not sure we have the right to subject the child to living in that home. I am not sure as a society, it is in our interest to force people to have children they really do not want. Our obligation is to do all we can to ensure that
when they have a child, they are prepared,but not to force them to raise a child they do not want.

Adoption? At this point someone usually brings up adoption. Again, personnally, I laud those who do that. However, in adoption there is no gaurantee, either. Even with the best of screening, adoptive kids still wind up abused, etc. But, worse, many... particularly those who are not white or nearly white and children with any kind of medical issue are not adopted. Some turn out OK, but ... Anyway, even bearing a child for adoption is more responsibility than many want. If they cannot stay off drugs and alchohol, are not going to eat correctly, etc....

The real truth is that having a child is a privilage. Raising a child takes a lot of work. If you are not fully ready and able... well, truth is no one is really "fully ready and able" (maybe after the 5th one ...). But, when you force someone to be a parent who is absolutely not ready, only some will manage to "step up" to the challenge.
Even if they are willing to try, it is very tough to raise a child as a teen or even just a single parent. Look at the employment statistics. The right wants everyone to be responsible, work hard, etc... well, having a child when you are not ready gets in the way of that. Many single parents DO wind up on government support. Many of those parents are wonderful people who do a great job of raising their kids. Supporting them is a good deal for society, in other words. BUT for that to work, the parent has to be fully willing. And, living under support is not the same as going out and being a fully independent (even wealthy) wage-earner.

Finally, the case that makes more than a few people angry with the far right and the place where they are truly hypocritical is when it comes to children with serious disabilities. I have read comments ranging from "God always chooses life" to "every life is worth living". Well, sorry. God does NOT "always choose life". God himself allowed death to happen. And, he allows suffering and pain, disease and many ills. (to say otherwise is to say God is not in control.. a discussion for another thread) As a Christian, as a mother, as the relative of some SEVERELY disabled children, I am not sure that is always the case. Again, I am in no way advocating forced euthanasia or abortion. However, what right does anyone have to say that you have to have this child who will only live hooked up to a dozen machines, etc. As a society, can we even afford to keep maintaining these children at the cost of millions of dollars when other children cannot even go to see the dentist?

The truth is that if the world were perfect, there would be no abortion, there would never be a child born who was not wanted, healthy and fully loved. This is not, however that perfect world.

Unless and until you are fully and completely able and willing to truly discuss and answer those questions.. not to just stomp off and claim "its just about murder", then you have no right to voice an opinion, never mind tell other people how to live their lives.
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:32 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
It's a question of morals, which are subjectively defined; therefore, whenever someone takes the position that ABORTION IS WRONG, DENY PEOPLE THE CHOICE TO DO THIS, then that someone assumes that they know what's best for everyone. That they somehow know the objective truth.

(By morals, I'm talking about morality in the normative sense.)


If one would like to (or has) described why people think it's wrong, then kudos to them


In many ways you're right- few people who are anti-abortion will go beyond what they see as objective truth. Abortion is, it seems, literally murder to them. However, the objective vs subjective argument doesn't always apply.

Very few of the proponents of abortion as murder are able, or perhaps willing, to deal with what they are arguing. In an objective argument that abortion is murder you would have to deal with the consequences of those murders. It's objective in fantasy land, and then it's subjective after that. Logic breaks down. When abortion is murder, it seems, you don't have to think about the criminalization of women who have abortions, the policing of pregnancies, or the kind of surveillance culture it might entail.

It's objective truth, but when you ask for an explanation it's subjective and they can't explain beyond the fact that it's true for them, and you should just understand.

I think you summerized in a few words what I said above in many.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Ray Rider on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:01 pm

natty_dread wrote:I've had a child aborted once. Me and the mother-candidate were both very young, and both in such a situation that we couldn't possibly have taken care of a child (both unemployed, etc). We figured that abortion would be the responsible choice, rather than to bring another unwanted child we can not care for in the world.

It was years ago, and I still sometimes think, maybe things could have gone a different way, and I could be a father now. I still sometimes count how old my child would be now if he/she had not been aborted. But I still think we made the right choice, given the circumstances.

The responsible choice should have taken place long before the abortion--it would have been to avoid getting pregnant until you were able to take care of the human life that you were entrusted with.

"If there's even a question about when human life begins, isn't it our duty to err on the side of life?" --Ronald Reagan

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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:30 pm

Ok, here's the problem I have with abortion.

We know that humans do in fact have consciousness. I am me, for that reason. If my fetus was aborted, would *I* exist?

I think it's very selfish of us living to "abort" unless extreme circumstances are presented. If a girl gets pregnant and the parents want to abort because a kid would lessen their "freedom", then f*ck them, honestly. If you're not willing to accept having a child, then don't fucking have sex. I don't expect to have a kid when I have sex, but if pregnancy happens then it is my responsibility to accept the child (and you may say "but wait until you're in that situation" but I'm saying as of right now, where my conscious is pretty clear, if I eventually do knock up a girl without it being planned, then I am a piece of fucking shit if I want that baby aborted).

I don't know when a fetus is actually a human or whatever, but I think it's much better to be safe than sorry in this case.

And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:33 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Ok, here's the problem I have with abortion.

We know that humans do in fact have consciousness. I am me, for that reason. If my fetus was aborted, would *I* exist?

I think it's very selfish of us living to "abort" unless extreme circumstances are presented. If a girl gets pregnant and the parents want to abort because a kid would lessen their "freedom", then f*ck them, honestly. If you're not willing to accept having a child, then don't fucking have sex. I don't expect to have a kid when I have sex, but if pregnancy happens then it is my responsibility to accept the child (and you may say "but wait until you're in that situation" but I'm saying as of right now, where my conscious is pretty clear, if I eventually do knock up a girl without it being planned, then I am a piece of fucking shit if I want that baby aborted).

I don't know when a fetus is actually a human or whatever, but I think it's much better to be safe than sorry in this case.

And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Fine, but what about all the other situations? What would you do in those cases? And, have you even truly thought out and considered those other situations?
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:37 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Ok, here's the problem I have with abortion.

We know that humans do in fact have consciousness. I am me, for that reason. If my fetus was aborted, would *I* exist?

I think it's very selfish of us living to "abort" unless extreme circumstances are presented. If a girl gets pregnant and the parents want to abort because a kid would lessen their "freedom", then f*ck them, honestly. If you're not willing to accept having a child, then don't fucking have sex. I don't expect to have a kid when I have sex, but if pregnancy happens then it is my responsibility to accept the child (and you may say "but wait until you're in that situation" but I'm saying as of right now, where my conscious is pretty clear, if I eventually do knock up a girl without it being planned, then I am a piece of fucking shit if I want that baby aborted).

I don't know when a fetus is actually a human or whatever, but I think it's much better to be safe than sorry in this case.

And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Fine, but what about all the other situations? What would you do in those cases? And, have you even truly thought out and considered those other situations?


It depends. Yes, I've considered them, but I don't have a perfect answer for them. They're much more complex than this.
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:40 pm

Army of GOD wrote:It depends. Yes, I've considered them, but I don't have a perfect answer for them. They're much more complex than this.

Exactly... and that's partly why this became a privacy issue. Becuase unless we want the government to come in and get enough information to make all the decisions, unless we want to have to share all that information with law makers and judges, then whether someone has an abortion or not in the earliest stages must remain a private, legal, decision.

(and let me repeat, I do think abortion is killing, I do think it is a terrible thing, but.. I also know that making it illegal would cause far,far worse consequences than the death of some very unfortunate children).
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:43 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:It depends. Yes, I've considered them, but I don't have a perfect answer for them. They're much more complex than this.

Exactly... and when things are that complex, involve morals of all kinds of people, then its the place of the individual and not the law to decide.


I agree, but I think more often than not the situation is not complex. Even if having a child destroys your dreams of being a professional athlete or whatever, you have to accept the consequences of your actions by allowing the child to live. Animals are capable of keeping families alive by doing nothing more than hunting and gathering, so it's hard for me to believe that humans are incapable of supporting a single child.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:45 pm

Then again, I'm projecting my own morality on other people, so I have to bite my tongue.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Symmetry on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:45 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.


I just don't buy this part of your argument. Duty to who?
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:46 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.


I just don't buy this part of your argument. Duty to who?


The future of our species
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:47 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:It depends. Yes, I've considered them, but I don't have a perfect answer for them. They're much more complex than this.

Exactly... and when things are that complex, involve morals of all kinds of people, then its the place of the individual and not the law to decide.


I agree, but I think more often than not the situation is not complex.
Based on what evidence?

Because, let me tell you, the evidence I see is very different. And, I am likely in a better position than you (both being older and female) to know. But.. don't trust what I say. Check out the data. Do you know how many abortions (the percentage) are truly voluntary?
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Army of GOD wrote:Then again, I'm projecting my own morality on other people, so I have to bite my tongue.

That's not ALWAYS bad. We do tell parents they cannot break their kid's arms, etc now. However, you have to have a reason beyond "I think this is wrong". To be wrong for society, you have to show harm to society.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:49 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:It depends. Yes, I've considered them, but I don't have a perfect answer for them. They're much more complex than this.

Exactly... and when things are that complex, involve morals of all kinds of people, then its the place of the individual and not the law to decide.


I agree, but I think more often than not the situation is not complex.
Based on what evidence?

Because, let me tell you, the evidence I see is very different. And, I am likely in a better position than you (both being older and female) to know. But.. don't trust what I say. Check out the data. Do you know how many abortions (the percentage) are truly voluntary?


No. I was just guessing on the figures, I have no clue in all honesty.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Symmetry on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:50 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.


I just don't buy this part of your argument. Duty to who?


The future of our species


I see your point, but I can't think of many things more depressing than existing just to produce more copies. The future of our species is pretty vague.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:52 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Then again, I'm projecting my own morality on other people, so I have to bite my tongue.

That's not ALWAYS bad. We do tell parents they cannot break their kid's arms, etc now. However, you have to have a reason beyond "I think this is wrong". To be wrong for society, you have to show harm to society.


Morality is too debatable. Maybe the most "moral" thing someone can do is go on a giant killing spree, because somehow death is better than life. Morality is relative.
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Re: Abortion

Postby spurgistan on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:52 pm

Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


Timminz wrote:By that logic, you eat babies.
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:53 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Then again, I'm projecting my own morality on other people, so I have to bite my tongue.

That's not ALWAYS bad. We do tell parents they cannot break their kid's arms, etc now. However, you have to have a reason beyond "I think this is wrong". To be wrong for society, you have to show harm to society.


Morality is too debatable. Maybe the most "moral" thing someone can do is go on a giant killing spree, because somehow death is better than life. Morality is relative.

Straight morality, yes. That is why its the impact to society that matters when we live in a mixed society, as opposed to a theocracy. (conversely, that is what makes theocracies so attractive.. the morality is largely pre-determined).
However, that gets complex and esoteric and can be debated in other threads, I think.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:55 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.


I just don't buy this part of your argument. Duty to who?


The future of our species


I see your point, but I can't think of many things more depressing than existing just to produce more copies. The future of our species is pretty vague.


What's the future of any species on Earth?

If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator. If we're nothing more than the other species on Earth, then we can learn from all of them that our purpose on Earth is to f*ck and then die.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:57 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:However, that gets complex and esoteric and can be debated in other threads, I think.


Perhaps, but I try to avoid morality debates like this one. You can argue your heart out, and no one's minds will be changed (I'm pretty brain-washable, so this doesn't really apply to me).
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Re: Abortion

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:09 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:However, that gets complex and esoteric and can be debated in other threads, I think.


Perhaps, but I try to avoid morality debates like this one. You can argue your heart out, and no one's minds will be changed (I'm pretty brain-washable, so this doesn't really apply to me).

Except, this is a legal question, not a moral one.

That is, it is a question of what should be legal, not what is moral.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Snorri1234 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:15 pm

john9blue wrote:
i'm not a biological expert, but i really don't see how terminating what is guaranteed to result in human life


You what now?


Due to an astonishing amount of work we've managed to make pregnancy, childbirth and the early years of kids not result in death most of the time. God failed to mention stuff like that that we can actually use to our benefit in favour of telling us how much random tribes in the desert sucked and how pork was bad.


It is not guaranteed.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Snorri1234 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:20 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:For the record, I would put miscarriages into a seperate category, especially if it endanger's the mother's life.


This doesn't make any sense.
The way I've seen it though, is when a would be mother realizes she got knocked by someone (boyfriend, random stranger in a one-night-stand, man who is not her husband, or just having a lot of sex with different men) and then decides to get rid of the baby because she couldn't keep her pants on, or at the very least, used proection.

lol women are all sluts amirite?


Incest. Not all of it is rape or child abuse, hell, saw a news thing on yahoo or whatever about a German couple that are brother and sister (and consenting adults). When it comes to things like that, I think there are different issues going on. As rape of a family member, I would put right there with the rape category in general. Whild the child abuse thing I would put it under the term by the same name as well.

Seriously though, I have no idea what you're actually saying.

Could you, like, clear it up?
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Re: Abortion

Postby Woodruff on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:21 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Motherhood is often glorified highly.


It should be. So should fatherhood. Sadly, neither is much, these days.

Otherwise, I agree with your rant.
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Re: Abortion

Postby Woodruff on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:25 pm

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:call me heartless, but i don't see how being raped justifies murder, if abortion is indeed murder. two wrongs don't make a right...


IT'S NOT FUCKING MURDER! Jesus H. Christ.

As far as the point you're trying to make (substituting "homicide" for "murder"), you believe that a woman should go through not only the trauma of carrying a child that will remind them of the rape EVERY DAMN DAY THEY'RE PREGNANT? Quite honestly, that's monstrous.


key word = "guaranteed" for those of you who missed it


So the f*ck what - that doesn't make it "murder", you illiterate buffoon.

john9blue wrote:abortion can leave women traumatized as well (feelings of guilt).


Absolutely - I do not argue against that. In fact, I would say "can" isn't the right term...I would say that it usually does. I would like to think that it does (not out of meanness, but out of belief in the good in people).

john9blue wrote:and no, it's not monstrous.
let me ask you this: would you terminate the life of an elderly person who was suffering in a hospital?


It would depend on the circumstances, of course. Why isn't that obvious?

john9blue wrote:if (yes) { YOU MURDERED HIM THAT'S MONSTROUS }


Find a fucking dictionary, you illiterate buffoon.

john9blue wrote:else { YOU MAKE HIM SUFFER THAT'S MONSTROUS }


So you believe that preserving the life of an elderly person is equal in suffering to a woman who has been raped before forced to bear the child? If you seriously do, then I would say that YOU are monstrous.

john9blue wrote:it's not pleasant but it's not monstrous. horrible word choice.


I disagree. I consider it quite accurate.
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