Conquer Club

Juan_Bottom wrote:I side with the unions. I always side with the people.
It's our right to collectively bargain and it's our right to strike. Trying to stop that is... communist? Local news said they are protesting the provisions of the bill that will take away their right to collective representation on several issues.

I don't necessarily disagree that they should have the right to collectively bargain. That should be something the Wisconsin governor considers taking off the table. That being said, look where collective bargaining has taken Wisconsin...

I think WI should play hard ball. I think they should force the Unions to really look at what has happened and agree to some changes, but to threaten a person's freedom to choose representation is never the right thing to do. It's not the worker's fault that WI f*cked up. I see no reason why WI should try to fix it by retro-actively passing laws targeting honest workers. Let alone targeting teachers for heaven's sake. I see that as a King Henry-style get out of jail card. And I see it as oppression. Really, what needs to happen is the voters need to actually elect politicians who can plan for tomorrow and not just for today. And our federal government had better be making plans too. But for now, WI needs to be open and work with the unions and not try to suppress them like Mao or something. They should be able to close some more of these deficits without oppressing people.

Juan_Bottom wrote:I think WI should play hard ball. I think they should force the Unions to really look at what has happened and agree to some changes, but to threaten a person's freedom to choose representation is never the right thing to do. It's not the worker's fault that WI f*cked up. I see no reason why WI should try to fix it by retro-actively passing laws targeting honest workers. Let alone targeting teachers for heaven's sake. I see that as a King Henry-style get out of jail card. And I see it as oppression. Really, what needs to happen is the voters need to actually elect politicians who can plan for tomorrow and not just for today. And our federal government had better be making plans too. But for now, WI needs to be open and work with the unions and not try to suppress them like Mao or something. They should be able to close some more of these deficits without oppressing people.

Um... they do have representation. They get to vote for their representatives same as everyone else.

Right. And I'm also talking about labor representation. Unions.

Actually, isn't it odd that WI wants people to vote for political representation but they don't want them to have labor representation?

Juan_Bottom wrote:Right. And I'm also talking about labor representation. Unions.

Actually, isn't it odd that WI wants people to vote for political representation but they don't want them to have labor representation?

I understand what you're talking about. I just think your apparent rhetoric is a little overboard. I don't have a union and I do just fine thank you very much. If I take what you say to be truth, I'd be running around saying, "I have no representation!"

Like I said, I do think the state employees union should still be permitted to collectively bargain, although I think about how the state got into this mess in the first place and I suspect it's because the state employees union is bargaining with a government that is represented by people that support the union (read Democrats). It's not really fair to the taxpayers of the state when the state employees union is bargaining with a governor or representative that was bribed by, I mean got campaign contributions from, the state employees union.

thegreekdog wrote:

pimpdave wrote:You didn't even watch the video and I'm guessing only merged it because WI was in the title... weak.

Good guess (considering that you posted at 2:58 PM and I posted at 3:00 PM). But I have now watched the video and this is where it belongs.

I of course respect your decision even if I disagree with it.

pimpdave wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

pimpdave wrote:You didn't even watch the video and I'm guessing only merged it because WI was in the title... weak.

Good guess (considering that you posted at 2:58 PM and I posted at 3:00 PM). But I have now watched the video and this is where it belongs.

I of course respect your decision even if I disagree with it.

Actually, the right answer is "I of course respect your decision after you actually watched the video..."

Because, yeah, you're right... I shouldn't have moved it without watching the video first.

thegreekdog wrote:I would urge all of you to not make this a partisan issue, because it's really not. Political pundits on both sides are trying to make this an issue about unions, but it's really not. I heard conservatives say "Yeah, unions suck, teachers are lazy, etc." I heard liberals say, "Republicans are trying to destroy all the unions. They're coming after the auto workers next." This measure is neither of those things. Like patches indicated, this is about fiscal responsibility.

Let's go back and think about what the governor of Wisconsin is attempting to do. Right now, state employees pay $0 into their pensions and pay $0 for health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is asking state employees to pay some amount into their pensions and pay some amount into their health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is not asking the state employees to pay 100% of their pensions or 100% of their health insurance. The governor of Wisconsin is trying to get the state employees to do this so that the government of Wisconsin doesn't have to lay off hundreds or thousands of state workers. He doesn't want Wisconsin to turn into a Camden. He doesn't want Wisconsin to have hundred or thousands of additional people on unemployment compensation.

This measure is entirely reasonable. It's not an assult on the unions (whether you're conservative or liberal, it's simply not).

Should Wisconsin taxes be increased? Probably, yes. But before asking for taxes to be increased, perhaps we need to figure out what the tax situation in Wisconsin is right now.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. It's very important.

I can tell you, from living next door to WI, they are not raising taxes because they are actually attracting new businesses already. Businesses see what is going on, and a smart business owners smells opportunity in WI today. In a couple years maybe they will raise taxes, most likely though a 1 or 2 year incentive package that WI entices new companies/jobs with will expire and then they should see a influx in revenue. In the meantime, the budget should be balanced or else on the way to being balanced, and then when that influx of revenue hits, you have yourself some grass-roots genuine economic expansion.

Wisconsin and many of the other states surrounding Illinois are trying to get businesses to leave Illinois (now that Illinois raised its corporate tax rate).

Night Strike wrote:So, the things we have learned about these "protesters" in Wisconsin:

1) On Thursday, there were numerous signs comparing the Republicans and the governor to tyrants and Hitler, among other violent phrases. So much for toning down the rhetoric that I bet many of these people felt should apply to the Tea Party.

2) "Everyone must make sacrifices" are actually code words for raising taxes on the rich. It doesn't actually apply to the President's supporters such as unions. Therefore, the President doesn't actually believe what he says.

3) These protests are NOT grassroots. Many different unions have now joined the teachers in their protests, but the protests themselves are organized by the President and DNC through Organizing for America, the organization used for Obama's 2008 presidential campaign. Further proof that Obama doesn't actually believe it people making fiscal sacrifices.

4) Many of these protesters are thugs. They're protesting at people's homes, threatening the families of the Republican senators and governor. Intimidating a person's family is what mobsters do, not political opponents.

I heard estimates today that 5,000 of possibly 10,000 protesters were bussed in, mostly from Organizing for America, and I heard it on MPR bitzes!

I just want to point out, these workers, who call themselves professionals, who's jobs are actually very important and the community depends on them(which is why they get good benefits, but not twice as good as everyone else), chose to make the schools close down for 2 days so that they can go and protest. I just have to say, they should have done the "professional" thing and go and put in a days work and then meet at the capital at 5pm like the rest of us do. I would have respected that. The Wisconsin politicians had alrady fled the scene, so there was not going to be a vote protesters or not. All it took was as phone call from a Senator to the protesters speaking the codeword "the cameras are rolling today!"

These protesters need to chip in, especially for their own benefits and pension. I was stunned to learn how little they contribute. basically nothing.

Wisconsin is brave, an a majority of it's citizens are just as stunned to the reaction as I am.

thegreekdog wrote:Wisconsin and many of the other states surrounding Illinois are trying to get businesses to leave Illinois (now that Illinois raised its corporate tax rate).

mighta missed it earlier, but I can't go a day without hearing or seeing an ad from South Dakota, spotlighting opportunity galore, all hey have to do is leave Minnesota. The state takes about 100 out of every regular paycheck I get. When I bonus, my state bonuses almost as much. It is really bad here, but there are trade offs in all honesty.

and, specifically on the 5% contribution to pension and 10% contribution to benefits, all I have to say is "WHERE THE F DO I SIGN UP!!!???"

pimpdave wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

pimpdave wrote:You didn't even watch the video and I'm guessing only merged it because WI was in the title... weak.

Good guess (considering that you posted at 2:58 PM and I posted at 3:00 PM). But I have now watched the video and this is where it belongs.

I of course respect your decision even if I disagree with it.

You've got a little something on your nose there.

Someone making $53,000 a year is not stealing money from anyone, nor are they not doing their share. They pay their taxes. But they also pay their union dues. If anyone in the country doesn't like their job, they are free to quit or to march. Obviously they chose to march and to show everyone how much they are needed. You expect them to keep doing their jobs while the few perks they get are being threatened?

Furthermore, I don't believe the argument is actually about their pension or their health care. I believe it's about their right to collectively bargain. They are protesting the legislation ban on their right to collectively bargain in the future.
The schools aren't operating, but they are still serving food for poor students.

Why do Republicans constantly attack the working class and then turn around pretend to be on our side? Look how twisted this story has become on the national level.


You need teachers. They only make an average of $53K a year here. There's no need to eliminate their ability to negotiate for decent salaries.

27 News Madison wrote:Senate Democrats left the state Thursday in protest over the Governor's proposal to strip collective bargaining rights from some public workers

When Democrats left the Assembly, there was a thunderous applause and people in the crowd high-fived Democratic Assembly representatives.

They're in the right. The governor wants to eliminate our most important public workers right to collectively bargain. I have no idea why anyone thinks this is about making teachers give up their perfect pension plan or whatever. I've seen dozens of them on TV saying they wont let their union be bullied. And they wont give up their right to collectively bargain. I've seen the same on local news from other union leaders too.

I also want to point out, that these teacher's unions are the ones who fight to provide better quality education to your kids than the federal government wants to mandate. These are the good guys... who only make $53K a year on average.

You have ignored everything I have typed Juan. I understand your arguments. These are not the issues, however. The teachers pensions are funded entirely by taxpayers. Their health insurance is funded entirely by taxpayers. The reason these are the current state is because the unions are collectively bargaining with the Wisconsin legislature which has been made up of Democrats who are pro-union because the union is the group that gives the Democrats the money. When private sector employees are losing their jobs, don't have their retirements funded at all, and pay for someone else's health insurance, they voted for Republicans. This is the electoral process we have. Perhaps the state employees should strike. The Democratic senators have no leg to stand on however (the Wisconsin constitution requires them to be present).

It sounds like you are following this story, which is good. But please read something othe than the union comments. I am reading something other than fox news.

Quick question: If you're going to merge all threads about a particular topic, regardless of perspective, don't you think you should alter the title to something less incendiary? I mean, keeping all discussion about a particular event in one place is a good concept and all, but to force anyone who would like to discuss that topic to do so under an obviously biased title seems unfair, to say the least.

Perhaps, the next time the RNC is happening, I should start a thread about it, but title it something like, "RNC plagued by low moral values, and aborted fetus' on rye", and then insist that any further thread about stuff happening at that particular convention should be merged into my horribly inflammatorily-titled thread.




I guess that wasn't as quick as I'd hoped, but I hope I made my point.

Timminz wrote:Quick question: If you're going to merge all threads about a particular topic, regardless of perspective, don't you think you should alter the title to something less incendiary?

Something less incendiary than what they're actually doing?

This entire protest just proves why government employees should NOT be unionized. They band together to vote for the politicians who will pay them off with the public's money. When new politicians come in and try to make changes to those pay-offs, they whine and complain about still getting a better deal than the private workers. At least with private unions, their benefits are tied to whether the company (who actually produces wealth) succeeds or fails. With government unions, their benefits are only linked to which politicians they can bribe for votes. It's the essence of corruption, which is why our state governments are bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfWE05de ... r_embedded

THIS IS FOR THE KIDS!!! THIS IS FOR THE KIDS!! AAAaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

HapSmo19 wrote:

Timminz wrote:Quick question: If you're going to merge all threads about a particular topic, regardless of perspective, don't you think you should alter the title to something less incendiary?

Something less incendiary than what they're actually doing?

Indeed. Papshmo finally got something right. Huzzah for you, good sir. It's about time you found a clue.

thegreekdog wrote:The reason these are the current state is because the unions are collectively bargaining with the Wisconsin legislature which has been made up of Democrats who are pro-union because the union is the group that gives the Democrats the money.

I get that, but I don't see it as the issue here at all. The Republican governor didn't try to sit down with the unions and re-negotiate, he tried to outlaw them. He gave the state legislature 3 days to look at his plan & then they had to vote.... so he hoped to do it very quietly. The Unions in question aren't fighting to keep their awesome pensions or the health care benefits... they're fighting for their right to exist. I'm pretty sure that they're willing to compromise if it will keep them in existence.

PLUS teachers unions rate politicians based on their stance on quality education. The best candidates are recommended, regardless of politics. If the Republicans of WI were the best for Wisconsin's schools, then they're prolly the ones who received campaign donations.

thegreekdog wrote:The Democratic senators have no leg to stand on however (the Wisconsin constitution requires them to be present).

While they can't win the vote, local polling shows that the majority are actually on their side. But anyway, - even if the majority disagree with you, that doesn't mean that you're wrong.

thegreekdog wrote:It sounds like you are following this story, which is good. But please read something other than the union comments. I am reading something other than fox news.

It's all over the local tv. I live just under the WI border, and 45 minutes away from the hotel that the Dems fled to. I think that I actually have family in Milwaukee protesting tonight. This isn't about the Unions or the Republicans or whatever, the issue at heart here is protecting everyone's right to collective bargaining.*
I'm watching local news. Channel 13 Rockford and Channel 27 Madison.
http://www.wrex.com/Global/story.asp?S=14057090

The Republican spin is that it's about saving money. The unions don't care about the money, they're fighting for survival.


*I've never been in a union.

Night Strike wrote:This entire protest just proves why government employees should NOT be unionized. They band together to vote for the politicians who will pay them off with the public's money. When new politicians come in and try to make changes to those pay-offs, they whine and complain about still getting a better deal than the private workers.

This is a complete lie. Governor douche-bag, your boy, doesn't want to make simple changes or requests for wage freezes, pay-pensions, or super-expensive Republican style health care. Your Republicans want to take away American rights. That's what the fight is for, not benefits.

How is $53K a year a better deal than private workers? Good teachers deserve better.

Night Strike wrote:With government unions, their benefits are only linked to which politicians they can bribe for votes. It's the essence of corruption, which is why our state governments are bankrupt.

You're right, this can be the only reason. It has nothing to do with an inability to plan for the future or for politicians to see past their next term. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that people don't care. Or even George Bush. It's all the everyday hard worker's fault. It's cops, firemen, civil servants, prison guards, teachers, meter-maids, librarians, sanitation workers, AND THAT FUCKING GUY WHO MOWS THE PARK. THOSE GUYS CORRUPTED OUR GOVERNMENT! My 4th grade teacher paid off my governor for decent health care! They're the assholes who bankrupted us! VOTE REPUBLICAN!!! SAVE THE UNION BY GIVING UP YOUR RIGHTS! JEFFERSON WOULD WANT YOU TO!
Seriously though, did you even think that statement through? You're like, the king Republican here and you absolutely hate the working class. You blame us for everything all of the time. The Republicans of WI aren't going to give the voters of Wisconsin more than they are going to take away from them.

Correct. f*ck those firemen for screwing up the surplus Governor Walker inherited. f*ck them. Hard.

I am loving the fact that these reps are essentially fugitives. I could see Harrison Ford in this role. "I'm looking for the exceedingly well-coiffed man who de-certified my public employee unions."

muy_thaiguy wrote:Just glad that Wyoming is being fiscally responsible. Seriously, the State Legislature is putting money into the bank for a "rainy day," so to speak. Sure we have Democrats, but from everything I've seen and read about most of the other Democrats in politics, and the ones here are not exactly on the same track. Our last governor who was a Democrat, would have been mistaken for a Republican, Libertarian, or Tea Party member (though, a bit more rational than many in the national light) in almost any other state..

More democrats like that, and more Tea Party candidates will save this country from the Looter Class.

john9blue wrote:I didn't go to class on Thursday... not because of protest, just because I'm lazy as shit.

In all seriousness though, I don't have an opinion on this because I've heard a lot of things from a lot of people and I'm not sure what to think. I will try to head down to the Capitol this weekend though.

See you there. we are leaving in a couple hours. I have a dual Gadsden/Betsy Ross thing happenin on my flagpole. I never see anyone else with it so came say hi if you see me.

Juan_Bottom wrote:I side with the unions. I always side with the people.
It's our right to collectively bargain and it's our right to strike. Trying to stop that is... communist? Local news said they are protesting the provisions of the bill that will take away their right to collective representation on several issues.

Yes, the government wants to be able to lay people off when they run out of money...

You are kinda right, and it really does suck for these teachers etc, but this is part of "sucking it up" Everyone else is doing it. They are not special. You know how bad the economy is. It is not unreasonable to ask these employees to contribute 5% to their own pensions. I know there's more to it, and maybe the missing politicians should be in the legislature trying to negotiate.

Not to mention, the fear of not having your job for life with benefits for life is definitely motivation to put a bit more effort into the job you are doing.