US Military Action in Libya?

[saxitoxin]

The USA is telling all Americans to flee Libya as fast as they can.

The US state department has warned any American citizens in Libya to leave the country immediately. It said the situation in the country remained unpredictable and unstable. On Tuesday, the US said it was sending a warship carrying around 1,000 marines to the region for any possible evacuation of American officials.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27599301

Thanks to the U.S., another stable, prosperous country turned into hell-on-earth.

Fortunately there is no occupation in Libya, unlike Iraq, and the Green Resistance is still organized and capable of striking. The only thing keeping the Libyan people from restoring the Green Revolution and toppling the NATO-backed regime is the continued detention of Saif al-Islam. If somehow news broke that Saif were freed or escaped you would see every technocrat in Tripoli fleeing the country as fast as they could. The closest thing I could imagine it to being like is the panic in Paris c. 1815 on hearing Napoleon had escaped Elba.

[a6mzero]

At least in the so called State of Israel women don't have to walk around in bee suits.

[saxitoxin]

At least in the so called State of Israel women don't have to walk around in bee suits.

You must be a multi of billy07.

[2dimes]

At least in the so called State of Israel women don't have to walk around in bee suits.

You must be a multi of billy07.

Because billy is the only American?

[a6mzero]

Yes it would be such a delight for the people of Libya to have Saif al-Islam in power. They could be a mini Iran where kids just doing a dance video get arrested for crimes against the state. Some of the other delights would be a woman who is raped gets stoned to death,men without beards get 50 lashes and all the other wonderful pleasures brought to u by Shaira law. He would make Ghaddify look like Santa Claus.

[saxitoxin]

Yes it would be such a delight for the people of Libya to have Saif al-Islam in power. They could be a mini Iran where kids just doing a dance video get arrested for crimes against the state. Some of the other delights would be a woman who is raped gets stoned to death,men without beards get 50 lashes and all the other wonderful pleasures brought to u by Shaira law. He would make Ghaddify look like Santa Claus.

lolwut?

You obviously don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

The Green Movement is a variation on Arab Socialism (secularist), similar to Ba'athism. After the Green Revolution Sharia was purged from the legal code and replaced with codified law; after 1967 women were, for the first time in Libya, given the right to own property, to divorce, to hold public office, etc. Since 2011 women's property rights in Libya have been restricted and religious law has been reintroduced by the NATO-backed regime for the first time since 1967. It's utterly disgusting. The U.S. wanted a dependable medieval dictatorship like they have in Saudi Arabia and they got it.

This was all discussed as it was happening in this thread - feel free to scroll back a few dozen pages and learn a little about the world around you.

Saif is coming and the rats know few of them will survive his return. That's why they're all fighting among themselves right now; trying to grab as many cookies as they can before daddy gets home.

[patches70]

LOL, yeah, guy doesn't know what he's talking about does he?

Anyway, sax, since you are here (so to speak), I want to ask you something-

Saif is coming and the rats know few of them will survive his return. That's why they're all fighting among themselves right now; trying to grab as many cookies as they can before daddy gets home.

If I understand it correct, Saif is being held by the Libyans. The ICC asked for information about Saif from the government of Libya (what government they have after the ill planned and reckless disregard for the stability of the country that the US and EU inflicted) and the ICC was ignored.
Then Libya set a trial date and then pushed it back and have pushed it back yet again. No one knows exactly where Saif is at the moment. The last time he's been seen was back in April and that was only by video link. Hell, the ICC doesn't even know exactly what charges Saif is facing under the new government of Libya and that they don't think that the ICC's indictment charges are even the same as Libya's. The ICC wants hims extradited and the Libyan government isn't budging.

What makes you think that Saif is coming out of this in anything less than a body bag?

And the supposed crimes Saif has been charged with are laughable. It's obvious he's only being held because he is Gaddafi's son.
Is he the last surviving direct relative of Gaddafi, sax?

Anyway, I don't see how he's getting out alive. The people holding him, our "allies", don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks, international law or actual fair and impartial trials, they'll off the guy before cutting him loose.
Yep, we saved a rabid pit bull and now the pit bull doesn't want to listen to anyone and is intent on tearing Libya to pieces.

Good job, Obama! The POTUS deserves to be honored by Harold Lord Randomfactor.

[mrswdk]

Gaddafi's regime was fucked up. Let's not pretend that the situation in Libya is anything other than one pack of animals being usurped by another pack of animals.

[saxitoxin]

LOL, yeah, guy doesn't know what he's talking about does he?

Anyway, sax, since you are here (so to speak), I want to ask you something-

Saif is coming and the rats know few of them will survive his return. That's why they're all fighting among themselves right now; trying to grab as many cookies as they can before daddy gets home.

If I understand it correct, Saif is being held by the Libyans. The ICC asked for information about Saif from the government of Libya (what government they have after the ill planned and reckless disregard for the stability of the country that the US and EU inflicted) and the ICC was ignored.
Then Libya set a trial date and then pushed it back and have pushed it back yet again. No one knows exactly where Saif is at the moment. The last time he's been seen was back in April and that was only by video link. Hell, the ICC doesn't even know exactly what charges Saif is facing under the new government of Libya and that they don't think that the ICC's indictment charges are even the same as Libya's. The ICC wants hims extradited and the Libyan government isn't budging.

What makes you think that Saif is coming out of this in anything less than a body bag?

And the supposed crimes Saif has been charged with are laughable. It's obvious he's only being held because he is Gaddafi's son.
Is he the last surviving direct relative of Gaddafi, sax?

Anyway, I don't see how he's getting out alive. The people holding him, our "allies", don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks, international law or actual fair and impartial trials, they'll off the guy before cutting him loose.
Yep, we saved a rabid pit bull and now the pit bull doesn't want to listen to anyone and is intent on tearing Libya to pieces.

Good job, Obama! The POTUS deserves to be honored by Harold Lord Randomfactor.

A rat militia is holding Saif prisoner somewhere in Cirenaica, presumably. They could have killed him anytime they wanted in the last 2 years but have neither killed him nor turned him over to the banana government running Tripoli (and not much else), insisting they will hold him during his "trial."

So, as you ask, why not just off him or turn him over to Tripoli or The Hague and be done with it?

The militia want to keep him because they think Saif is insurance for them. He may or may not be; many of these militias are filled with people who can barely read (Saif, of course, has a doctorate from the London School of Economics). Given their past links to various religious nutcase groups like Qaeda and LIFG, the militias know western tolerance of them can turn on a dime. So, they think having Saif insures them two ways:

- Prior to his arrest, Saif said he had evidence of massive bribes being paid to Nicholas Sarkozy (funnily, this just resurfaced last week but hasn't got much attention outside France - http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asi ... 24012.html), among a thousand other allegations. They may consider him kind-of canary insurance.

- Libya is being held together by a thread right now and it could all come crashing down at any moment. Western media have so far ignored the continuity of the Green Resistance - reading the NYT you'd think it simply evaporated into thin air in 2012. But, as I understand, its political capabilities are cross-border and military capabilities at ground (a couple months ago Niger said they would deport Abdullah Mansur, the last chief of the Sûreté prior to the NATO invasion, because he had been directing "troubles" in Libya ... then reporting stopped; no news as to whether he had actually been deported or not [so probably a political announcement with no follow-through b/c Niger can read the writing on the wall]) Green forces are going to be in a good position to fill the vacuum once the balloon goes up. The people holding Saif want to be in a position to switch sides fast; they think holding him is their penultimate exit strategy.

If there is one thing that terrifies every rat in Tripoli, even more than this lunatic Gen. Haftar who has been running around shooting the place up the last month, it's the idea of Saif walking out of jail. So, for now, it's a good thing the ICC don't get their hands on him as they're being duplicitous (saying they want Saif to get a fair trial ... in reality they want Saif out of Libya and in a secure Dutch prison). If you're on the wrong [western] side of history, Saif al-Islam is the most dangerous man in the world.

[AndyDufresne]

Did Libya use to be a monarchy? I can't remember from my EU game if it was or not.

Also,




--Andy

[saxitoxin]

Did Libya use to be a monarchy? I can't remember from my EU game if it was or not.

Just for 15 years or so; after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in WW1, Libya was given to Italy to run. After Italy was defeated in WW2 it was given to Britain to run. Britain picked Idris' name out of a hat and made him king of Libya to run on behalf of the BP corporation. At this time Libya had the lowest standard of living in North Africa. In 1969 Idris - while on a luxury yachting holiday in Europe - was deposed in a bloodless coup led by (then) Captain Qaddafi and a group of 15 other army and navy officers. The BP-designed flag of King Idris was replaced with the Green flag, Sharia law was banned and women were given equal rights, and BP was kicked out of the country and all oil resources nationalized.

Qaddafi, who had been raised in a tent in the desert by poor parents, vowed he would not move his family into any better accommodations than their traditional nomad tents, until all Libyans had houses. This was accomplished 9 years later, in 1978, and by 1980 Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa.

In 2011 foreign-backed mercenaries and NATO air forces bombed Libya, gave control of oil back to BP, reintroduced the BP-designed flag, reintroduced Sharia law and banned women from owning property. The standard of living has been in free-fall for the last 2 years and will probably be the lowest in North Africa by 2015 - just like it was in 1969, the last year of Idris' reign.

[2dimes]

Would you visit Libya now Saxi? What are you doing for work or do you have no time for employment due to reading?

[saxitoxin]

Today is the birthday of Saif al-Islam. Also today, the Atlantic Council reports that Libya is "Facing Economic Collapse in 2014." Three years ago Libya was the richest country in Africa with the highest standard of living.

What the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University said about the Obama/Israeli plot against the Libyan people -

The Conventional Wisdom Is Wrong. Libya’s 2011 uprising was never peaceful, but instead was armed and violent from the start. Muammar al-Qaddafi did not target civilians or resort to indiscriminate force.

The Intervention Backfired. NATO’s action magnified the conflict’s duration about sixfold, and its death toll at least sevenfold, while also exacerbating human rights abuses, humanitarian suffering, Islamic radicalism, and weapons proliferation in Libya and its neighbors. If Libya was a “model intervention,” then it was a model of failure.

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... on%202.pdf