US Military Action in Libya?

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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:42 pm

I was playing on the military history of Libya-USA. It smells like Saddam all over again.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby CreepersWiener on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:45 pm

Any chicks in here?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:24 pm

qwert wrote:these is funny,again americans hurry to attack someone who dont attack america.
These is not nato or american war. What if some american soldier die? Who will be responsibile?


This isn't just about attacking people for the hell of it.


Gaddafi is gearing up to kill as many of his own people as he can. He doesn't care anymore. He's lost $30bn in frozen assets, so he's got nothing to lose.

He has some portions of his military under his direct command, and he's moving into position to strike his rebelling cities. There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?

The US in this situation wants to stop him, but the top shots are limiting their actions for now. The US has moved the 6th fleet from Italy to nearby Libya and Tunisia, and they've denied Gaddafi control of his own air space. Why? So he can't bomb his own civilians and destroy his people's oil facilities.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby jay_a2j on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:27 pm

Yes, lets get into another meaningless war so that the US will be too weak to stop the Chinese invasion!
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:34 pm

Ray Rider wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't think this will turn out how a lot of people think it might....

Let's see

I'm curious what you were expecting.

Phatscotty wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Um... what kind of military action are you talking about?


well, probably any action is action, but I suppose some could argue we should go in there and get Gaddafi, other might argue we should provide boots on the ground to support rebels, it could be naval bombardment of palaces.

Obama could order a pre-emptive strike, like a 72 hour thing. What if Gaddafi goes WMD? I know anything can happen but I hate waiting until after it happens to talk about it.

On the one hand, the US is in no condition economically to support another war. Even if it were, what business does it have there? They've been burning American flags and saying the US is the "great satan" for years. There's no reason for a pre-emptive strike, since it's no threat to any other nation (except for the civil unrest spreading, which could be a good thing in any neighboring, repressive nations). When the populace of a nation rise up and overthrow their dictator on their own, then the responsibility of their actions rests solely with them. It forces those citizens to cooperate if it is going to succeed, which makes that cooperation and interdependence much more likely to continue when the time comes to set up the succeeding government. Also, what about every other nation which is experiencing civil unrest due to repressive leadership? If the US steps in here, why not in Egypt, Tunisia, or any other nation in the future? When do you stop? And why stop at a no-fly zone? May as well send in troops. I don't know, it's tough to avoid a slipperly slope on the issue.


In Tunisia, the king left without much of a fight. In Libya, Gaddafi is fighting to the death. Big difference. He doesn't give a shit, and he'll use whatever means he can to maintain control, even if it means destroying the oil facilities in the east to undermine those rebel cities' power. He'll even use his tanks and artillery to crash into rebel cities and kill many civilians.

If you could stop such an evil dictator from killing his own civilians, then why not act on the moral imperative? Granted, there are diminishing returns for more resource-intensive military actions, but what the US is doing now is acceptable.

However, another interesting thing to note is that the US government really shouldn't be involved in any of this. I don't see why the US shouldn't scale down it's military budget, and let mercenary groups be hired by organizations (that the US deems acceptable) who are willing to throw down enough cash to stop Gaddafi.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:35 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Yes, lets get into another meaningless war so that the US will be too weak to stop the Chinese invasion!


I wouldn't say "invasion," but China is certainly the biggest threat the US faces, and the US is hardly prepared for it.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:52 am

"bigbalinstalin-
This isn't just about attacking people for the hell of it.


Gaddafi is gearing up to kill as many of his own people as he can. He doesn't care anymore. He's lost $30bn in frozen assets, so he's got nothing to lose.

He has some portions of his military under his direct command, and he's moving into position to strike his rebelling cities. There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?

The US in this situation wants to stop him, but the top shots are limiting their actions for now. The US has moved the 6th fleet from Italy to nearby Libya and Tunisia, and they've denied Gaddafi control of his own air space. Why? So he can't bomb his own civilians and destroy his people's oil facilities."
How many time ,the history repeating. North Corea-Vietnam-Iraq-Afghanistan-Iran-Libya.
Ofcourse if US have 18 year old soldier who ready to die,in some coutries who are not thread for US, then its ok by me. Do you belive,that if US send troops, war will be over? Do you belive that in iraq war are over? What abouth Afghanistan? or Pakistan. And iran.
But this time its a little diferent, US want to try to involve other NAto members to participiate, but its look that they not want to send soldier into something what its not hes business. Im not in danger,and probably you are not in danger to, but young boys who are going to be in these crap, will be in danger to die, and for what? If you are comanding officer,what will you tell to familiy of soldier who die in libya " He die for American freedom" or what?
Last edited by Qwert on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:51 am

qwert wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?


Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby spiesr on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:39 am

thegreekdog wrote:
qwert wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:08 am

spiesr wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
qwert wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.


Yes, qwert told me that via pm.

I believe qwert's answer is "no." And I agree.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:20 am

jay_a2j wrote:Yes, lets get into another meaningless war so that the US will be too weak to stop the Chinese invasion!

newflash, the Chinese don't need to invade us militarily. They already own us.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:23 am

In the long run, the US need stop supporting dictators. But, that means saying "no" to some big corporate interests.

In the short term, I am on the fence. If the UN approves something like a "no fly zone", I could see it. If we can go in quickly, depose Khaddafi and GET OUT,t hat would be OK, but it seems that "ge out" part is complicated.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:24 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:In the long run, the US need stop supporting dictators. But, that means saying "no" to some big corporate interests.

In the short term, I am on the fence. If the UN approves something like a "no fly zone", I could see it. If we can go in quickly, depose Khaddafi and GET OUT,t hat would be OK, but it seems that "ge out" part is complicated.


So you approved of the second Iraq war (apart from the "not getting out quick" part)?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:04 pm

qwert wrote:
"bigbalinstalin-
This isn't just about attacking people for the hell of it.


Gaddafi is gearing up to kill as many of his own people as he can. He doesn't care anymore. He's lost $30bn in frozen assets, so he's got nothing to lose.

He has some portions of his military under his direct command, and he's moving into position to strike his rebelling cities. There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?

The US in this situation wants to stop him, but the top shots are limiting their actions for now. The US has moved the 6th fleet from Italy to nearby Libya and Tunisia, and they've denied Gaddafi control of his own air space. Why? So he can't bomb his own civilians and destroy his people's oil facilities."
How many time ,the history repeating. North Corea-Vietnam-Iraq-Afghanistan-Iran-Libya.
Ofcourse if US have 18 year old soldier who ready to die,in some coutries who are not thread for US, then its ok by me. Do you belive,that if US send troops, war will be over? Do you belive that in iraq war are over? What abouth Afghanistan? or Pakistan. And iran.
But this time its a little diferent, US want to try to involve other NAto members to participiate, but its look that they not want to send soldier into something what its not hes business. Im not in danger,and probably you are not in danger to, but young boys who are going to be in these crap, will be in danger to die, and for what? If you are comanding officer,what will you tell to familiy of soldier who die in libya " He die for American freedom" or what?


I'm not sure what you said, Qwert, but I think I agree with it -- some time ago I kept saying, but no one would listen, that these rebellions are all NATO plots. As a Serbian you already know this well since it was the CIA who manufactured OTPOR ... the last "spontaneous youth movement" that captured everyone's imaginations.

    1 - I said - weeks ago on this forum - it would emerge that the CIA-run OTPOR is behind this whole thing. For the first time, yesterday, VEST reported that their reporters have spoken with Egyptians who said they were flown to Serbia last year to receive revolutionary training (http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=3D619CB1 ... A078B604A3). I guess ol' Saxi does know what he's talking about? And yet, despite the serious and significant implications of this, the article has appeared only in this one Macedonian newspaper.

    2 - Russia yesterday reported their satellite imagery has shown zero evidence of air attacks by the Jamahiriya's Air Force on "protesters." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TncgsS0F ... r_embedded) Yet CNN keeps reporting YouTube videos and press releases saying there have been as fact.

    3 - Libya spends less on their military than Denmark. Denmark! They have 50,000 troops. If everything we've been told is to be believed, how on Earth can a brutal dictatorship not only keep power but continue to control more than half the country and launch a counter-offensive in a nation of 6 million with a 50,000 man army half of which has defected? (hint: because the insurgency is, in fact, small to the point of comedy ... if the US intervenes it will because their agents have been unable to do the job in toppling Qadaffi and securing the oil)

The west must stop sabre rattling, demilitarize the Mediterranean and lift the sanctions. Even so much as a no-fly zone is a euphemism for a declaration of war. There is no basis in law for any state to unilaterally impose a no-fly zone over a sovereign nation and, if Russia says there is no proof any aircraft have been used against protesters at all, the UN will be unable to pass an authorizing instrument. If OTAN dares to impose a no-fly zone over Libya they will reveal their true, brigandish nature once again.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:16 pm

qwert wrote:
"bigbalinstalin-
This isn't just about attacking people for the hell of it.


Gaddafi is gearing up to kill as many of his own people as he can. He doesn't care anymore. He's lost $30bn in frozen assets, so he's got nothing to lose.

He has some portions of his military under his direct command, and he's moving into position to strike his rebelling cities. There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?

The US in this situation wants to stop him, but the top shots are limiting their actions for now. The US has moved the 6th fleet from Italy to nearby Libya and Tunisia, and they've denied Gaddafi control of his own air space. Why? So he can't bomb his own civilians and destroy his people's oil facilities."
How many time ,the history repeating. North Corea-Vietnam-Iraq-Afghanistan-Iran-Libya.
Ofcourse if US have 18 year old soldier who ready to die,in some coutries who are not thread for US, then its ok by me. Do you belive,that if US send troops, war will be over? Do you belive that in iraq war are over? What abouth Afghanistan? or Pakistan. And iran.
But this time its a little diferent, US want to try to involve other NAto members to participiate, but its look that they not want to send soldier into something what its not hes business. Im not in danger,and probably you are not in danger to, but young boys who are going to be in these crap, will be in danger to die, and for what? If you are comanding officer,what will you tell to familiy of soldier who die in libya " He die for American freedom" or what?


I'm not for some kind of amphibious assault. That's not necessary because the rebel factions seems to be doing that job well enough.


So, are you against the US's (with NATO) military action that consists of denying Gaddafi air control over his own country?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:17 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
spiesr wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BBS wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.


Yes, qwert told me that via pm.

I believe qwert's answer is "no." And I agree.


Why do you agree?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:34 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
spiesr wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BBS wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.


Yes, qwert told me that via pm.

I believe qwert's answer is "no." And I agree.


Why do you agree?


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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:41 pm

big balin, maybe you notice how Uprising going,,
In any country (even Mine), if you have majority of people against leader,or dictator, these uprising solve very fast, because army stop defend regime,and people take control.
If Quadafy lost control, and if people take control (6 milion people), then i dont see how can one guy with 20-30000 thousand soldier can hold power?
I read in all paper "Protester hold Control of half country" "quadafy are finish" its these trye?
Lets assume that Quadafy dont have support, so why will someone from foreign countries interfere in these situation, few more week and protester will win.
But what if these not true? What if these become tribal war, and you can owerthrow quadafy,but half of country ,if support quadafy will continue war,supporting jamahiria,and fight against east side of lybia. You will get very bad situation where foreign country will need to be buffer zone,because bouth side dont have enough power to win. If you interefer you give other side to do what they whant with other side,and you all ready have these effect in east side,where protester kill without any trial policemen and soldier who are surender-why nobody stop that. You see bouth side comite crime, but like many time in past, side who US decide to be frendly,are free from any crimes. Maybe you forget but Sadam whas Ally to US in Iran -Iraq war- and talibans have support also in hes war against Soviet Union.
I want to belive that NAto care for civilian, but its these for real, or something else its hide.
Sometime humanitarian action, are much worst then any war. And how many time civilian whas bombed from US Airplane, and these same can hepend in Libya to.
Think of that.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 pm

qwert wrote:big balin, maybe you notice how Uprising going,,
In any country (even Mine), if you have majority of people against leader,or dictator, these uprising solve very fast, because army stop defend regime,and people take control.
If Quadafy lost control, and if people take control (6 milion people), then i dont see how can one guy with 20-30000 thousand soldier can hold power?


It depends, and it's how he's been in power for the past 30+ years, but yeah, I agree. For governments to continue operating, they need enough consent from enough people to do so.



qwert wrote:I read in all paper "Protester hold Control of half country" "quadafy are finish" its these trye?
Lets assume that Quadafy dont have support, so why will someone from foreign countries interfere in these situation, few more week and protester will win.


The reason why the US decided to deny Qaddafi control of the air is to prevent him from bombing the Eastern side of his country. What this does is denies him the ability to inflict more civilian casualties, but more importantly, it prevents him from destroying the oil facilities.

Had the US let Qaddafi have free use of his air power, then he would've most likely continued effectively stopping rebels from taking cities, and he would've most likely destroyed the oil production facilities in the East. If those are destroyed, the future government of Libya and its people would be set back for decades. Imagine how difficult it would be to run any kind of legitimate government in Libya with a severely crippled oil industry.

That's pretty much why the US and NATO get involved in Libya's conflict to that degree.

qwert wrote:But what if these not true? What if these become tribal war, and you can owerthrow quadafy,but half of country ,if support quadafy will continue war,supporting jamahiria,and fight against east side of lybia. You will get very bad situation where foreign country will need to be buffer zone,because bouth side dont have enough power to win. If you interefer you give other side to do what they whant with other side,and you all ready have these effect in east side,where protester kill without any trial policemen and soldier who are surender-why nobody stop that. You see bouth side comite crime, but like many time in past, side who US decide to be frendly,are free from any crimes. Maybe you forget but Sadam whas Ally to US in Iran -Iraq war- and talibans have support also in hes war against Soviet Union.
I want to belive that NAto care for civilian, but its these for real, or something else its hide.
Sometime humanitarian action, are much worst then any war. And how many time civilian whas bombed from US Airplane, and these same can hepend in Libya to.
Think of that.


Sure, I have, and it's something I wouldn't want the US involved in to that degree. Which is why earlier I was saying for the US to just side with the winners via rhetoric. I'm not opposed to denying Qaddafi control over air space, but I am against bombing them or starting a ground war there.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:56 pm

I was wondering: Since the EU (or some major members of theirs) rely heavily on Libyan exports of petroleum, then shouldn't the US just collect from them money in order to pay for the operations over Libyan air space that deny Qaddafi such control?

Really, before getting involved, the US government should've just asked EU for the money since the EU wants to protect its future exporter of petroleum.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby patches70 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:23 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I was wondering: Since the EU (or some major members of theirs) rely heavily on Libyan exports of petroleum, then shouldn't the US just collect from them money in order to pay for the operations over Libyan air space that deny Qaddafi such control?

Really, before getting involved, the US government should've just asked EU for the money since the EU wants to protect its future exporter of petroleum.


Yep, it affects the EU far more than the US, especially Italy and France, along with Scotland. Scotland, if you recall, released the Lockerbie bomber and in return got oil contracts from Libya. I say let the EU project their power. If they can, if they even have the ability. If they don't have the ability to project the required amount of force to protect their vital national interests, and instead have to rely on the US, then it is high time they start thinking about that.

It is time for the US to stop being the strong man. Or pay us to do the job for them. That raises some other ethical questions though, since our military is supposed to be used to protect our sovereignty, not as a mercenary army for hire.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby CreepersWiener on Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:42 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Yes, lets get into another meaningless war so that the US will be too weak to stop the Chinese invasion!


I think you mean that YOU will be too weak!
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:08 pm

i just look on CNN report from attack on brega, and its so phatetic that they use almost same scenario from Kosovo War, where they report 100000 people killed.
One plane drop one bomb,and these is shocked for CNN- and when Hundred and hundred planes from nato bombarding mine country and kiling civilians,these whas ok. Propaganda are great thing for people to belive in some exageration. Also its phatetic,that how can someone belive in tv news,when they say that they bombard civilian, and that guadafy troops attack brega,and can not take control , and aftermath 4 unarmed civilian die.
What kind of army quadafy have,when can not take one city who hold unarmed civilian,and need US to involve.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby oVo on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 pm

What is happening in Libya is a different situation
than what occurred in Kosovo.

The US isn't "going to war" with Libya and there is no
invasion or occupation in the works that I've heard of
on the news.

What I have heard reported; the USA is considering the
establishment of a "No Fly Zone" over Libya to prevent
Khadafi from using his air force to drop bombs on
civilian demonstrators.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:25 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:In the long run, the US need stop supporting dictators. But, that means saying "no" to some big corporate interests.

In the short term, I am on the fence. If the UN approves something like a "no fly zone", I could see it. If we can go in quickly, depose Khaddafi and GET OUT,t hat would be OK, but it seems that "ge out" part is complicated.


So you approved of the second Iraq war (apart from the "not getting out quick" part)?

No. The situations were very different. That war was based on false information. Also, the situation was not entirely parallel. We perhaps should have invaded after he gassed the Khurds and such, but there was no particular uprising in Iraq like there is now in Libya. Also, while Saddam was cruel and evil enough to be considered "insane", he was not irrational in the same way Khadafi is now.
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