US Military Action in Libya?

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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:17 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
spiesr wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BBS wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.


Yes, qwert told me that via pm.

I believe qwert's answer is "no." And I agree.


Why do you agree?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:34 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
spiesr wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BBS wrote:There's going to be immense civilian casualties, and if you were in a position to stop such senseless killing, would you?
Would you, qwert? I'm not sure you answered your own question.
qwert did not ask that question, BigBallinStalin did. qwert quoted one of BigBallinStalin's posts that contained that line in his post but he got the format of the quote slightly off. You then made the mistake of attributing the contents of that quote to qwert.


Yes, qwert told me that via pm.

I believe qwert's answer is "no." And I agree.


Why do you agree?


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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:41 pm

big balin, maybe you notice how Uprising going,,
In any country (even Mine), if you have majority of people against leader,or dictator, these uprising solve very fast, because army stop defend regime,and people take control.
If Quadafy lost control, and if people take control (6 milion people), then i dont see how can one guy with 20-30000 thousand soldier can hold power?
I read in all paper "Protester hold Control of half country" "quadafy are finish" its these trye?
Lets assume that Quadafy dont have support, so why will someone from foreign countries interfere in these situation, few more week and protester will win.
But what if these not true? What if these become tribal war, and you can owerthrow quadafy,but half of country ,if support quadafy will continue war,supporting jamahiria,and fight against east side of lybia. You will get very bad situation where foreign country will need to be buffer zone,because bouth side dont have enough power to win. If you interefer you give other side to do what they whant with other side,and you all ready have these effect in east side,where protester kill without any trial policemen and soldier who are surender-why nobody stop that. You see bouth side comite crime, but like many time in past, side who US decide to be frendly,are free from any crimes. Maybe you forget but Sadam whas Ally to US in Iran -Iraq war- and talibans have support also in hes war against Soviet Union.
I want to belive that NAto care for civilian, but its these for real, or something else its hide.
Sometime humanitarian action, are much worst then any war. And how many time civilian whas bombed from US Airplane, and these same can hepend in Libya to.
Think of that.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 pm

qwert wrote:big balin, maybe you notice how Uprising going,,
In any country (even Mine), if you have majority of people against leader,or dictator, these uprising solve very fast, because army stop defend regime,and people take control.
If Quadafy lost control, and if people take control (6 milion people), then i dont see how can one guy with 20-30000 thousand soldier can hold power?


It depends, and it's how he's been in power for the past 30+ years, but yeah, I agree. For governments to continue operating, they need enough consent from enough people to do so.



qwert wrote:I read in all paper "Protester hold Control of half country" "quadafy are finish" its these trye?
Lets assume that Quadafy dont have support, so why will someone from foreign countries interfere in these situation, few more week and protester will win.


The reason why the US decided to deny Qaddafi control of the air is to prevent him from bombing the Eastern side of his country. What this does is denies him the ability to inflict more civilian casualties, but more importantly, it prevents him from destroying the oil facilities.

Had the US let Qaddafi have free use of his air power, then he would've most likely continued effectively stopping rebels from taking cities, and he would've most likely destroyed the oil production facilities in the East. If those are destroyed, the future government of Libya and its people would be set back for decades. Imagine how difficult it would be to run any kind of legitimate government in Libya with a severely crippled oil industry.

That's pretty much why the US and NATO get involved in Libya's conflict to that degree.

qwert wrote:But what if these not true? What if these become tribal war, and you can owerthrow quadafy,but half of country ,if support quadafy will continue war,supporting jamahiria,and fight against east side of lybia. You will get very bad situation where foreign country will need to be buffer zone,because bouth side dont have enough power to win. If you interefer you give other side to do what they whant with other side,and you all ready have these effect in east side,where protester kill without any trial policemen and soldier who are surender-why nobody stop that. You see bouth side comite crime, but like many time in past, side who US decide to be frendly,are free from any crimes. Maybe you forget but Sadam whas Ally to US in Iran -Iraq war- and talibans have support also in hes war against Soviet Union.
I want to belive that NAto care for civilian, but its these for real, or something else its hide.
Sometime humanitarian action, are much worst then any war. And how many time civilian whas bombed from US Airplane, and these same can hepend in Libya to.
Think of that.


Sure, I have, and it's something I wouldn't want the US involved in to that degree. Which is why earlier I was saying for the US to just side with the winners via rhetoric. I'm not opposed to denying Qaddafi control over air space, but I am against bombing them or starting a ground war there.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:56 pm

I was wondering: Since the EU (or some major members of theirs) rely heavily on Libyan exports of petroleum, then shouldn't the US just collect from them money in order to pay for the operations over Libyan air space that deny Qaddafi such control?

Really, before getting involved, the US government should've just asked EU for the money since the EU wants to protect its future exporter of petroleum.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby patches70 on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:23 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I was wondering: Since the EU (or some major members of theirs) rely heavily on Libyan exports of petroleum, then shouldn't the US just collect from them money in order to pay for the operations over Libyan air space that deny Qaddafi such control?

Really, before getting involved, the US government should've just asked EU for the money since the EU wants to protect its future exporter of petroleum.


Yep, it affects the EU far more than the US, especially Italy and France, along with Scotland. Scotland, if you recall, released the Lockerbie bomber and in return got oil contracts from Libya. I say let the EU project their power. If they can, if they even have the ability. If they don't have the ability to project the required amount of force to protect their vital national interests, and instead have to rely on the US, then it is high time they start thinking about that.

It is time for the US to stop being the strong man. Or pay us to do the job for them. That raises some other ethical questions though, since our military is supposed to be used to protect our sovereignty, not as a mercenary army for hire.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby CreepersWiener on Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:42 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Yes, lets get into another meaningless war so that the US will be too weak to stop the Chinese invasion!


I think you mean that YOU will be too weak!
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:08 pm

i just look on CNN report from attack on brega, and its so phatetic that they use almost same scenario from Kosovo War, where they report 100000 people killed.
One plane drop one bomb,and these is shocked for CNN- and when Hundred and hundred planes from nato bombarding mine country and kiling civilians,these whas ok. Propaganda are great thing for people to belive in some exageration. Also its phatetic,that how can someone belive in tv news,when they say that they bombard civilian, and that guadafy troops attack brega,and can not take control , and aftermath 4 unarmed civilian die.
What kind of army quadafy have,when can not take one city who hold unarmed civilian,and need US to involve.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby oVo on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 pm

What is happening in Libya is a different situation
than what occurred in Kosovo.

The US isn't "going to war" with Libya and there is no
invasion or occupation in the works that I've heard of
on the news.

What I have heard reported; the USA is considering the
establishment of a "No Fly Zone" over Libya to prevent
Khadafi from using his air force to drop bombs on
civilian demonstrators.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:25 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:In the long run, the US need stop supporting dictators. But, that means saying "no" to some big corporate interests.

In the short term, I am on the fence. If the UN approves something like a "no fly zone", I could see it. If we can go in quickly, depose Khaddafi and GET OUT,t hat would be OK, but it seems that "ge out" part is complicated.


So you approved of the second Iraq war (apart from the "not getting out quick" part)?

No. The situations were very different. That war was based on false information. Also, the situation was not entirely parallel. We perhaps should have invaded after he gassed the Khurds and such, but there was no particular uprising in Iraq like there is now in Libya. Also, while Saddam was cruel and evil enough to be considered "insane", he was not irrational in the same way Khadafi is now.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:27 pm

oVo wrote:
What I have heard reported; the USA is considering the
establishment of a "No Fly Zone" over Libya to prevent
Khadafi from using his air force to drop bombs on
civilian demonstrators.

Except, enforcing a no fly zone does mean bombing their anti-aircraft installations, etc. So, yes, it is a kind of invasion. Not the same as Kosovo, no. However, some people talking about this don't seem to realize what it truly means (not saying you don't, but wanted to clarify).
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:43 pm

these is exageration, the guadafy air forces are opsolite,and many planes are grounded, and also protesters capture air bases with planes. Some planes are defected, and when you look on news,they say "one plane drop bomb"
Protester started revolution,but now they want that some from outside fight for hes goals.
They capture weapons, planes,tanks, and now dont know what to do?
If they all against quadafy,these situation will all ready finish,but its look that not all people against quadafy.
Like i say earlier,they have oil, and that why US EU care. Nobody care for Darfur,ruanda,somalia, because they dont have what lybia have.
darfur-300000 die and killed
ruanda-500000 killed
somalia civil war start 1991(still ongoing) 300000 dead
and many other coflict who dont have attention of US and EU.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:51 pm

I am hearing Libyan civilians requesting US military aid...
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Iliad on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:I am hearing Libyan civilians requesting US military aid...

If you're hearing voices that is a problem.

Which civilians? Who? Or according to whom? Any sources at all?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby comic boy on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:52 am

patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I was wondering: Since the EU (or some major members of theirs) rely heavily on Libyan exports of petroleum, then shouldn't the US just collect from them money in order to pay for the operations over Libyan air space that deny Qaddafi such control?

Really, before getting involved, the US government should've just asked EU for the money since the EU wants to protect its future exporter of petroleum.


Yep, it affects the EU far more than the US, especially Italy and France, along with Scotland. Scotland, if you recall, released the Lockerbie bomber and in return got oil contracts from Libya. I say let the EU project their power. If they can, if they even have the ability. If they don't have the ability to project the required amount of force to protect their vital national interests, and instead have to rely on the US, then it is high time they start thinking about that.

It is time for the US to stop being the strong man. Or pay us to do the job for them. That raises some other ethical questions though, since our military is supposed to be used to protect our sovereignty, not as a mercenary army for hire.


You are aware that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom , it has about as much influence in foreign affairs as South Dakota does :lol:
Do you seriously think that the US intervenes out of pure benevolence, it acts according to its own benefit or at the very least common benefit.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Aradhus on Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:28 am

Team America to the rescue!

Hi, we're America, and there's no job we can't f*ck up. Need help because you're living under a brutal dictator? Don't worry, we'll invade and you won't have to worry about living any more. Team America, you request our help, and we'll be there, to bomb the shit out of your country. Having some problems with drug gangs? Don't worry, team America is here. We'll take that problem and multiply it tenfold, because we're just that awesome.

Team America, no problem too small that we can't make bigger, no job too easy that we can't utterly fail at.

We're team America, and we're in your corner(picking your pocket and fisting your wife, whilst singing 'With A Little Help From My Friends'), as long as there's something worthwhile in your corner for us to take.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:01 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:
What I have heard reported; the USA is considering the
establishment of a "No Fly Zone" over Libya to prevent
Khadafi from using his air force to drop bombs on
civilian demonstrators.

Except, enforcing a no fly zone does mean bombing their anti-aircraft installations, etc. So, yes, it is a kind of invasion. Not the same as Kosovo, no. However, some people talking about this don't seem to realize what it truly means (not saying you don't, but wanted to clarify).


It does? How do you know that for certain?
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:00 pm

Iliad wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I am hearing Libyan civilians requesting US military aid...

If you're hearing voices that is a problem.

Which civilians? Who? Or according to whom? Any sources at all?


Well, today we sent medical supplies (America sucks) and food (America sucks). I can't find any sources, guess it's just a rumor for now.

I will keep you posted on what I "hear"
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Aradhus on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:44 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Iliad wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I am hearing Libyan civilians requesting US military aid...

If you're hearing voices that is a problem.

Which civilians? Who? Or according to whom? Any sources at all?


Well, today we sent medical supplies (America is so benevolent) and food ( all bow down to the grace and generosity and be thankful that America is always there to save the day). I can't find any sources, guess it's just autofellatio for now.

I will keep you posted on what I "hear"


Some sarcasm had somehow crept into your post scotty. Luckily for you, I'm always on hand to fix shit that needs a-fixin'.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:51 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
oVo wrote:
What I have heard reported; the USA is considering the
establishment of a "No Fly Zone" over Libya to prevent
Khadafi from using his air force to drop bombs on
civilian demonstrators.

Except, enforcing a no fly zone does mean bombing their anti-aircraft installations, etc. So, yes, it is a kind of invasion. Not the same as Kosovo, no. However, some people talking about this don't seem to realize what it truly means (not saying you don't, but wanted to clarify).


Saxi agreeing with Player?! :o Say it ain't so! :P ACK! LOL!

It seems popular to imagine No-Fly Zones as some kind of pacifist application of military force, ignoring the personnel manning ground-based SAM batteries that get hit with Anti-Radiation missiles within five minutes of the No-Fly Zone starting.

Well, today we sent medical supplies (America sucks) and food (America sucks). I can't find any sources, guess it's just a rumor for now.


I had to Bing-Dot-Com what you were referencing (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylon ... tinue.html). This, cautiously, seems okay but I'm skeptical that it's a beachhead to sending supplies to the eastern part of the country under the guise of helping refugees but, in fact, feeding and clothing the insurgents.

I saw that, last week, the UK and Germany both sent military-marked aircraft deep inside Libya, ostensibly to evacuate foreign nationals. This was done without any permission or authorization from the PLAF, is a horrendous violation of Libyan territorial integrity and speaks to Britain's neo-colonialist, paternalist attitude in dealing with the Arab world. Germany's operation is an even worse violation than Britain's considering their history in Libya.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:02 pm

Brit Invasion Force Stopped
A recce squad for a UK empire-building force brigandishly eyeballing Libyan oil resources has been arrested in rebel-held Libyan territory where they were operating without authorization. The Libyan National Council are holding the NATO invaders in their stronghold of Benghazi. MoD press officers have released the cover story that the SAS operators were simply chauffers to a diplomat who was visiting the area to say hi. On several occasions in the past the UK has attempted to sow crime without the aid - or in opposition to the wishes - of the kingpin of the NATO gang (the US) which has generally resulted in comically bumbling hijinx (e.g. Suez).

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews ... 0520110306

The SAS have extensively trained Col. Qadaffi's secret service which is likely to viewed skeptically by insurgents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... roops.html

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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:26 am

he-he-he yesteday great "frends",today enemies. Its better to have enemies, instead these "frends" .
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:07 pm

LOL! It appears the vaunted SAS were captured by some guy out milking his cows ...

"We fired into the air, and said 'Hands up, don't move'. They did as we said. It was not very difficult, we just asked them to move away from their bags to the side, and they did," said a Libyan farmer who captured the SAS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2011 ... libya.html
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:21 pm

lol, they not training to fight with farmers, only with soldiers.
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Re: US Military Action in Libya?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:31 pm

qwert wrote:lol, they not training to fight with farmers, only with soldiers.


:lol:
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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