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Re: Religion and the State

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:17 am

AAFitz wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Question: Might it not be that the belief that your group has privileged knowledge about the universe, it's creator and that which is right and wrong will usually lead to the belief that things should be run according to this privileged knowledge and thus the desire to spread and impose this privileged knowledge even through the means of the state?


Yes it is. We call them scientists.


When has science ever claimed any knowledge of the creator (or lack of one) of the universe or any form of absolutist moral view?

And scientific knowledge is by it's very nature not priveleged, the whole way the scientific methodology is set up means that nothing is accepted unless anyone, anywhere, if given the necessary equipment will achieve the same predicted result, and that any of these people are free to propose alternative explanations for why that result happens.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:45 pm

GreecePwns wrote:It is quite a jump from "matter cannot be created from nothing" to "my morality is better than yours, and everyone must follow it regardless of the consequences."

Isn't it? Am I think only one who sees this?


This is my take on religion and government. If someone's activities violate the tenets of my religion, it does not directly affect me. I had an argument with some folks about this the other day. They began the discussion by trumpeting the Chik-Fil-A blown-completely-out-of-proportion, who-gives-a-shit, stuff. Essentially, their proposition was that "the gays are violating the free speech rights of the owner of Chik-Fil-A." Other than the fact that only the government can violate free speech, I asked the group of them why did they care if gays got married. Their response was typical: it's wrong and against my religion.

As far as the letter is concerned (someone else mentioned this), if you spoke with 10 Baptists, 9 of them would vote for someone who would ban gay marriage, so I'm not sure Vince is accurately describing his religion. However, I agree with the remaining portions of the letter to a certain extent. As I've indicated before, most atrocities committed in the name of religion have other, more common, reasons behind them than "you aren't my religion."
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby bedub1 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:59 pm

This is kinda off-topic, but I'm not sure where else to post it. Did you know that the Catholic church is partially responsible for the Black Plague?

Basically, the pope made up some shit about cats and had them all killed, which allowed the mice and fleas to multiply out of control, killing nearly a 1/3rd of Europe's population.

http://suite101.com/article/cats-and-th ... gue-a58146
Pope Gregory IX told people that domestic cats were diabolical in 1232, fueling anti-cat sentiment


Just another example of Religions "idealogy" going horribly wrong. They should have used SCIENCE. Fact/reason vs making shit up.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby Woodruff on Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:01 pm

thegreekdog wrote:As far as the letter is concerned (someone else mentioned this), if you spoke with 10 Baptists, 9 of them would vote for someone who would ban gay marriage


I grew up a Baptist. Your statistic there is exceedingly liberal. <grin>
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:03 pm

bedub1 wrote:This is kinda off-topic, but I'm not sure where else to post it. Did you know that the Catholic church is partially responsible for the Black Plague?

Basically, the pope made up some shit about cats and had them all killed, which allowed the mice and fleas to multiply out of control, killing nearly a 1/3rd of Europe's population.

http://suite101.com/article/cats-and-th ... gue-a58146
Pope Gregory IX told people that domestic cats were diabolical in 1232, fueling anti-cat sentiment


Just another example of Religions "idealogy" going horribly wrong. They should have used SCIENCE. Fact/reason vs making shit up.


Unbiased website.

CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/diseases/plague.htm

Cats can carry the plague.

/thread.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby Symmetry on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:16 pm

bedub1 wrote:This is kinda off-topic, but I'm not sure where else to post it. Did you know that the Catholic church is partially responsible for the Black Plague?

Basically, the pope made up some shit about cats and had them all killed, which allowed the mice and fleas to multiply out of control, killing nearly a 1/3rd of Europe's population.

http://suite101.com/article/cats-and-th ... gue-a58146
Pope Gregory IX told people that domestic cats were diabolical in 1232, fueling anti-cat sentiment


Just another example of Religions "idealogy" going horribly wrong. They should have used SCIENCE. Fact/reason vs making shit up.


Meh- sounds a bit like anti-Catholicism gone horribly wrong:

It is often claimed in popular books and websites that Gregory's condemnation of heretics worshipping Satan in the form of a black cat in his bull Vox in Rama led to a massacre of cats across Europe. However, there is no evidence of any such massacre and no mention of it in any actual sources from the period. It is usually also claimed that this supposed "cat massacre" caused the Black Death a century after Gregory's time, because the plague was spread by rats who were unchecked in Europe due to the decline of cat numbers. While this makes for a good story, it does not square with the evidence. The Black Death did not start in Europe and did not just devastate Catholic territories - it began in central Asia and spread west, devastating large swathes of central Asia, Asia Minor and the Middle East before hitting Europe. It makes no sense that an (alleged) western European massacre of cats could "cause" a pandemic that began well outside of Catholic Europe and had already killed millions across Eurasia. This story is a myth perpetuated, without evidence or references, by popular unscholarly works.[13]


Source
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
bedub1 wrote:This is kinda off-topic, but I'm not sure where else to post it. Did you know that the Catholic church is partially responsible for the Black Plague?

Basically, the pope made up some shit about cats and had them all killed, which allowed the mice and fleas to multiply out of control, killing nearly a 1/3rd of Europe's population.

http://suite101.com/article/cats-and-th ... gue-a58146
Pope Gregory IX told people that domestic cats were diabolical in 1232, fueling anti-cat sentiment


Just another example of Religions "idealogy" going horribly wrong. They should have used SCIENCE. Fact/reason vs making shit up.


Unbiased website.

CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/diseases/plague.htm

Cats can carry the plague.

/thread.

What's that thing about playing chess with a pigeon? /thread

If the cats where around before the plague, they would have kept the mouse population in check. So when the plague arrived there wouldn't have been 10 billion mice, only 1 million mice.

Now if the plague arrived, and the church said that cats were the cause, and all cats should be killed, we aren't sure what would happen. You'd think the plague would get better because of fewer plague carrying cats. But I think the plague would get worse, because of more plague carrying mice. Either way this is speculation. We know what really happened. The cats were killed before the plague arrived, and the mouse population had time to explode to outrageous numbers, so when the plague did arrive it was drastically worse.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby Symmetry on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:38 pm

Not really.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:
It is often claimed in popular books and websites that Gregory's condemnation of heretics worshipping Satan in the form of a black cat in his bull Vox in Rama led to a massacre of cats across Europe. However, there is no evidence of any such massacre and no mention of it in any actual sources from the period. It is usually also claimed that this supposed "cat massacre" caused the Black Death a century after Gregory's time, because the plague was spread by rats who were unchecked in Europe due to the decline of cat numbers. While this makes for a good story, it does not square with the evidence. The Black Death did not start in Europe and did not just devastate Catholic territories - it began in central Asia and spread west, devastating large swathes of central Asia, Asia Minor and the Middle East before hitting Europe. It makes no sense that an (alleged) western European massacre of cats could "cause" a pandemic that began well outside of Catholic Europe and had already killed millions across Eurasia. This story is a myth perpetuated, without evidence or references, by popular unscholarly works.[13]


Source

The wikipedia portion misses two points. The cat massacre didn't CAUSE the black death...it just made it worse. Nobody is claiming it started in Europe. It migrated to europe from asia. Imagine the cats are the worlds immune system, and it was weakened, so the attack was worse.

Also, your source is an article about the pope, probably written by the church, so it's not really an unbiased source either. I'd like to fine some true phd level studies relating to cats and diseases/plague/rat population etc. As the cats eat the rats the cat population swells, and people pet their cats but hopefully not random rats....

This yahoo answers statement is funny, a guy quotes the defunct http://www.cats.com page, which I'm not saying is unbiased or anything, but they look at it from a cats perspective.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 207AA20vbk

EDIT:
LMFAO! You see that little [13] up there at the end of the wikipedia portions? Where they reference their source material? Have you read it? It's a great article. And it says the EXACT OPPOSITE THING THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE SAYS.
http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2149/ ... ERIOD.html
The Persecution of Cats

Cats came under suspicion for a variety of reasons. Unlike dogs, they did not behave subserviently toward humans. This was considered unnatural, because it violated the biblical view that humans should have dominion over animals. Also, cats were very active at night and engaged in loud, raucous mating rituals. Though cats had always behaved in this manner, to the superstitious minds of the Middle Ages, cats were practicing supernatural powers and witchcraft. Most accused witches were older peasant women who lived alone, often keeping cats as pets for companionship. This guilt by association meant that roughly a million cats were burned at the stake, along with their owners, on suspicion of being witches.

In the early thirteenth century Pope Gregory IX (1145–1241) declared that a sect in southern France had been caught worshipping the devil. He claimed the devil had appeared in the form of a black cat. Cats became the official symbol of heresy (or religious beliefs not advocated by the church). Anyone who showed any compassion or feeling for a cat came under the church's suspicion. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, Europe's cat population had been severely depleted. Only semi-wild cats survived in many areas.

In 1347 the bubonic plague swept across Europe. Called the Black Death, it killed twenty-five million people (nearly a third of Europe's population) in only three years. Thousands of farm animals died as well, either from the plague or from lack of care. The death rate peaked in the warm summer months and dropped dramatically in the wintertime because the plague was being spread to humans by fleas on infected rodents. The plague revisited Europe several more times over the next few centuries. In addition, millions of people are thought to have suffered from food poisoning during the Middle Ages because of the presence of rat droppings in the grain supply. Centuries of cat slaughter had allowed the rodent population to surge out of control.


EDIT 2: Wikipedia user TimONeill edited the page on the 13th, replacing this correct information:
Perhaps his most lasting action was a minor item: his papal letter Vox in Rama of 1232 is credited with the vilification of cats, through its description of cult practices involving felines. This led to a great reduction in the number of cats, which, a hundred years later, may have contributed to the quick spread of the Black Death plague, which killed one-third to one-half of the population of Europe.[13]

With those incorrect lies. Obviously somebody doesn't like bad things being said about Pope Gregory.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby Symmetry on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:26 pm

I read it, and dismissed it. A bad source doesn't make good history, and no matter how much you dislike the Papacy, the black death really isn't something you can pin on Catholicism.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:I read it, and dismissed it. A bad source doesn't make good history, and no matter how much you dislike the Papacy, the black death really isn't something you can pin on Catholicism.

what's the bad source? wikipedia? or the yahoo answers quote of cats.com? or the libraryindex.com source? I know it's the wikipedia edit that occured yesterday.

I'm not pinning the entire black death on the the church, just the magnitude. They and their followers made it worse with their stupid ideology.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:43 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Interesting article. She's stating that religion has been blamed for many problems (e.g. wars) in the past; however, it was not religion alone that was the cause. The primary cause was the fusing of religion with the State, which granted a particular religion the capability to persecute people and wage wars.

What about when the religion IS the State, and the Pope is the King?(Vatican City) Does he gain his power through the State, or through the religion? Does the states population of 800 have the capability to persecute people and wage war?

Looking at the cat example, which I've realized IS on topic, the Pope passed his proclamation and the followers enforced it. It seems that millions of christian Europeans who slaughtered their cats might have caused their own death and the death of their neighbors.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:57 pm

bedub1 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Interesting article. She's stating that religion has been blamed for many problems (e.g. wars) in the past; however, it was not religion alone that was the cause. The primary cause was the fusing of religion with the State, which granted a particular religion the capability to persecute people and wage wars.

What about when the religion IS the State, and the Pope is the King?(Vatican City) Does he gain his power through the State, or through the religion? Does the states population of 800 have the capability to persecute people and wage war?


Great questions, bedub!

I'm not aware of the political economy of the Vatican, but I would guess that the Catholic Church is the State-- but of only that political boundary, Vatican City.

bedub1 wrote:Looking at the cat example, which I've realized IS on topic, the Pope passed his proclamation and the followers enforced it. It seems that millions of christian Europeans who slaughtered their cats might have caused their own death and the death of their neighbors.


Back in the day, the Pope had considerable sovereignty over the sovereignty of other kingdoms, empires, etc., so the Pope would seem to be legislating and enforcing law through a "meta-State," as it were.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:35 pm

bedub - your initial post linked to a pro-cat website (a quite disturbing website, I might add). My initial post linked to the CDC website. Notwithstanding my distrust of the government, I would say my source holds more water than your source.

Also, can someone please insert a Cat Lady GIF in here? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Religion and the State

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:35 pm

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Done.

Labor: 1 minute * $100 saxbucks per minute.


Please pay for services rendered, TGD.
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