Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:31 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
john9blue wrote: what he didn't realize is that much of what he posted is accepted by many people and is why they ARE voting for ryan.


That's actually what I was thinking as I read the post. Same kind of thing is happening in the US Senate race in Missouri.


So then why is it a problem? That's how a "presentation of facts" works.


None of my posts in this thread have been challenging anything presented in the first post of the thread.


Neato Missile wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, it has occurred more than once. In fact, it's been the only thing coming from the campaign and surrogates for the past 2 weeks. From Harry Reid making up the claim to the campaign itself now running ads alleging the action.
I don't think it's fair to conflate one staffer's remarks with the entire campaign. Her "felon" accusation was out of line and I would greatly respect a statement from Obama putting it right, but excluding her remarks the motivation behind seeking the tax returns is seemingly to prove that Romney pays an unusually low tax rate. The Democrats really want to prove that the wealthy pay a smaller share of their larger amounts of money than the vast majority of Americans this election, and Mitt Romney's tax returns are a means to that end. It is perfectly justifiable to seek a candidate's economic information when said candidate is running on a largely economic platform.


The whole point of wanting to see all of Romney's tax returns is so they can comb through every legal action to reduce his tax rate. Every single person goes through their taxes to reduce the amount of money they owe, so why should Romney or any other rich person be vilified for doing that. The Obama campaign wants to make this election about Romney's success as a businessman instead of running on what Obama has done as president. They despise success and want to make sure it is vilified throughout the election.

Neato Missile wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Where is "predatory capitalism" ever even alluded to in the cancer ad? The guy is blaming Romney for firing him and killing his wife. The accusations are quite simple but the truth is far from what is shown in the ad.
"Predatory capitalism" is not mentioned in the ad, it's a term I cribbed from elsewhere regarding Romney's perceived corporate strategy of buying companies, "eating" them, and moving on. It wasn't meant insultingly, though I see that it's a somewhat loaded term.

That said, at no point in the ad does Soptic blame Romney for killing his wife. The point of the whole ad is that when Bain Capital closed down factories, real people suffered. It's more affecting than reams of statistics or graphs representing thousands of fired humans, and it should in no way be interpreted as an accusation of personal wrongdoing on Romney's part.


Except that even the factory closing didn't cause the real suffering in this case. The woman died of cancer 5 years after the factor had closed, and she had a job with insurance for at least one year after the factory closed. So why is he blaming the death on Bain Capital when, using his completely flawed logic, he should be blaming the woman's former employer.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Night Strike wrote:The whole point of wanting to see all of Romney's tax returns is so they can comb through every legal action to reduce his tax rate. Every single person goes through their taxes to reduce the amount of money they owe, so why should Romney or any other rich person be vilified for doing that. The Obama campaign wants to make this election about Romney's success as a businessman instead of running on what Obama has done as president. They despise success and want to make sure it is vilified throughout the election.


What makes you think all of his taxes are legal?

Moreover, running for President, Romney's problem is not so much whether it's legal or illegal, but whether it was moral.

Tax avoidance schemes and loopholes may be nice for the super-rich, and even legal, but they don't play well when you're proposing a tax increase on most folks and a tax cut on Romney-likes who already dodge taxes.

He should release them no? Or have you become so partisan that you make this exception only for people who run against Obama?
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby rockfist on Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:57 pm

Given that most of what our government spends its money on is at best waste and in most cases immoral - it would be immoral to pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to. It is immoral to advocate higher taxes. If Romney paid only 14% the question isn't how do we get him to pay a higher percentage - its how do we limit everyone to that percentage at most? Any taxation beyond a minimal amount is just state sanctioned theft.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:00 pm

Symmetry wrote:What makes you think all of his taxes are legal?


The fact that the IRS has not charged him with a crime in the last decade (as Harry Reid claims he has committed).

Symmetry wrote:Moreover, running for President, Romney's problem is not so much whether it's legal or illegal, but whether it was moral.


I thought all you liberals hated morality being involved in the government. Or is it only Christian morality that you despise?

Besides, why isn't it moral to take the legal deductions that are written into the tax code and available to every single person in the country? If you think those deductions are "immoral", remove them from the tax code. But until then, of course it's moral to take them.

Symmetry wrote:Tax avoidance schemes and loopholes may be nice for the super-rich, and even legal, but they don't play well when you're proposing a tax increase on most folks and a tax cut on Romney-likes who already dodge taxes.


Except he's not planning on raising taxes on anybody. Obama and his democrats are more than eager to have a ton of massive taxes bear down on every single person when January 1st comes around though.

Symmetry wrote:He should release them no? Or have you become so partisan that you make this exception only for people who run against Obama?


I think they should have already been released, but at this point, they probably shouldn't be released. The only reason Obama wants them released is so they can run and hide from their completely failed policies and actions. Besides, we've already been taught by Obama that presidential politicians don't have to release anything about their past and will get a free pass on it from the lapdog media.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:01 pm

Couldn't say it better...


inb4 edited clips of Ryan on Rand
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:06 pm

rockfist wrote:Given that most of what our government spends its money on is at best waste and in most cases immoral - it would be immoral to pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to. It is immoral to advocate higher taxes. If Romney paid only 14% the question isn't how do we get him to pay a higher percentage - its how do we limit everyone to that percentage at most? Any taxation beyond a minimal amount is just state sanctioned theft.


I'm not sure I give your given on this one- looks like you're starting out from an ideological premise and ending up at your ideal outcome, then fitting in logical steps, which are kind of a stretch, to fit.

Where's the waste, if you had to look at a table of gov't spending?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_revenues_and_spending

Hint- just saying "most of it" ain't gonna do you well, unless you're Paul Ryan, where it gets you a nomination for VP, just like Sarah Palin.

And which parts are immoral?
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Neato Missile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Apparently, you're easily convinced.

It seems that posted out-of-context quotes, and then supplying a list of ambiguous sources, which fail to show which allegations they support, is enough for you.

Is that accurate?
That is inaccurate. At no point did I indicate that everything I knew about Ryan came from Juan's OP. For my own use, nothing has proven more useful than the CBO's own report (http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43023), although there's nothing wrong with falling back on analyses by credible sources. The Washington Post put out a writeup of it yesterday (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ryans-budget-becomes-a-focus-of-the-presidential-race/2012/08/11/2d4e0daa-e3ba-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html?hpid=z2), and Business Insider was quick to post a rebuttal (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ryan-budgets-savings-come-from-shutting-down-the-federal-government-2012-8). Both corroborate the thrust of Juan's post: Paul Ryan's budget will drastically alter America's social programs for uncertain gain. In fact, in the short term, the CBO expects Ryan's budget will increase debt, and won't achieve a balanced budget until 2040 (see Table 1 on Page 12 of the CBO report).

Night Strike wrote:The whole point of wanting to see all of Romney's tax returns is so they can comb through every legal action to reduce his tax rate. Every single person goes through their taxes to reduce the amount of money they owe, so why should Romney or any other rich person be vilified for doing that.
Everyone takes legal actions to reduce their tax rates, and it's completely reasonable for Romney to do the same. However, many tax loopholes and rate-reducing tools are exclusively available to the wealthy, making it possible-- even likely-- for high earners to pay less than low earners.
Night Strike wrote:The Obama campaign wants to make this election about Romney's success as a businessman instead of running on what Obama has done as president. They despise success and want to make sure it is vilified throughout the election.
It would be foolish for the Obama campaign to focus on Romney's success. What they are doing is showing that the current environment is structured to make it easier for already-wealthy individuals (or, as in Romney's case, members of an already-wealthy family) to increase their fortunes than individuals who have not yet achieved wealth.
Claiming that the Obama campaign despises success is an unhelpfully emotional representation of the situation, and only has a passing resemblance to the truth. They despise the bottleneck of success that exists at present, and hope to expand the opportunity to become successful to a greater part of the populace.
Last edited by Neato Missile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:28 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Moreover, running for President, Romney's problem is not so much whether it's legal or illegal, but whether it was moral.


I thought all you liberals hated morality being involved in the government. Or is it only Christian morality that you despise?


This really doesn't make any sense at all, Night Strike. The very fact of BEING for a government is moral in some respect. It is religious-based morality, rather than human morality, that is the problem.

Night Strike wrote:Besides, why isn't it moral to take the legal deductions that are written into the tax code and available to every single person in the country? If you think those deductions are "immoral", remove them from the tax code. But until then, of course it's moral to take them.


I agree with this. I have no problem with Romney taking any tax deductions available to him.

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:He should release them no? Or have you become so partisan that you make this exception only for people who run against Obama?


I think they should have already been released, but at this point, they probably shouldn't be released. The only reason Obama wants them released is so they can run and hide from their completely failed policies and actions. Besides, we've already been taught by Obama that presidential politicians don't have to release anything about their past and will get a free pass on it from the lapdog media.


If Obama is successful in "running and hiding from their completely failed policies and actions", then there is nobody to blame but Romney himself. You act as if Romney has no control at all in the direction that his campaign takes. If Obama's policies are the problem, then he should talk about nothing else but specifically what is wrong and specifically how he'll fix it. But he's not, really.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Symmetry on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:34 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:What makes you think all of his taxes are legal?


The fact that the IRS has not charged him with a crime in the last decade (as Harry Reid claims he has committed).

Symmetry wrote:Moreover, running for President, Romney's problem is not so much whether it's legal or illegal, but whether it was moral.


I thought all you liberals hated morality being involved in the government. Or is it only Christian morality that you despise?

Besides, why isn't it moral to take the legal deductions that are written into the tax code and available to every single person in the country? If you think those deductions are "immoral", remove them from the tax code. But until then, of course it's moral to take them.

Symmetry wrote:Tax avoidance schemes and loopholes may be nice for the super-rich, and even legal, but they don't play well when you're proposing a tax increase on most folks and a tax cut on Romney-likes who already dodge taxes.


Except he's not planning on raising taxes on anybody. Obama and his democrats are more than eager to have a ton of massive taxes bear down on every single person when January 1st comes around though.

Symmetry wrote:He should release them no? Or have you become so partisan that you make this exception only for people who run against Obama?


I think they should have already been released, but at this point, they probably shouldn't be released. The only reason Obama wants them released is so they can run and hide from their completely failed policies and actions. Besides, we've already been taught by Obama that presidential politicians don't have to release anything about their past and will get a free pass on it from the lapdog media.


A deeply sad post, you've seen the evidence that Romney will raise taxes, and is lying about it. Too many posters have ended your contributions in other threads by pointing it out for you to not have acknowledged it.

You don't think he should be open because he might be criticised?

What a limp Willy you're putting forward into the arena. Willard can't say what he's done because he might be criticised?

How impotent is he going to be when it comes to dealing with China, or another decade of Putin?

Welcome to America's decline- a candidate too afraid to tell the American public what he paid in taxes.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Woodruff wrote:If Obama is successful in "running and hiding from their completely failed policies and actions", then there is nobody to blame but Romney himself. You act as if Romney has no control at all in the direction that his campaign takes. If Obama's policies are the problem, then he should talk about nothing else but specifically what is wrong and specifically how he'll fix it. But he's not, really.


Which is really why he has been failing as a viable alternative thus far. However, choosing Paul Ryan as his VP candidate should drastically change that as it provides a person who has actually put forth budget proposals and done actual work to improve on the problems of governmental spending. Paul Ryan has not been perfect on taking a conservative stance on every single fiscal issue, but he has done actual work in Congress on addressing spending problems when no one else has even attempted to do so. Romney needs to focus on the failures by Obama on the economy while Ryan needs to focus on the failures of all of Washington when it comes to fiscal policies. Doing that will win them the election.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby patches70 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Couple of facts about Ryan.
Ryan voted for TARP, Medicare D and No Child Left Behind.
It seems the Republicans only fight for fiscal sanity when they are in the minority. When they get in the majority they go right on with expanding government just about as well as Democrats.

TARP was a massive shakedown and rewarded bad behavior. These banks, financial institutions and investors made extremely risky moves, profited massively for years and when the party ended had to be bailed out by the taxpayers. A completely wrong line to take (IMO).

Medicare D, along with the entire medicare/medicaid system, distorts the insurance market and drives up costs for every single individual. Medicaid was supposed to be nothing more than taking care of solely the downtrodden and unfortunate. Obamacare turns Medicare into healthcare for all.

NCLB is a horrible and ends up making all students equally mediocre. Under NCLB, funding for gifted students dried up, in some cases certain States had the funding for such students reduced by up to 90%. NCLB makes no provisions for providing those few exceptional and gifted students the proper courses they need to realize their potential.
NCLB has been criticized for having unrealistic goals that have forced quite a few school systems to manipulate test scores to remain in compliance with the Act.
NCLB has lofty goals, but it has failed completely.

Then there is Ryan's much vaulted economic plan, which is all actually smoke a mirrors. For those fiscal conservatives who believe Ryan's plan is some sort of actual attempt at getting the debt under control, let us look at a few facts and compare to Obama (who is not even trying to have any fiscal sanity at all).

Let's start with Medicaid. Ryan in Red, Obama in Blue.
Image

It's really just a spending freeze, no cuts. It's a start, some would argue and that's fair enough I suppose, considering how much harm the system does to everyone in terms of rising medical costs.
Right now, Medicaid alone accounts for 25% of any given State's budget and is draining the Treasury at an alarming rate. Obama plans to speed up the bleeding, Ryan's plan just leaves the bleeding the same.

Now there is Medicare, you know, Ryan is going to throw Grandma off the cliff rhetoric? That's the current lib/democrat line in regards to Ryan's budget on Medicare. Let's see if the facts actually support that line.....

Image

Ooppps. It seems that it's not Ryan throwing Grandma off the cliff, it's Obama! Ryan's plan actually intends to spend more on Medicare than Obama. The Democrat rhetoric would be ironic if it weren't just all politics. However, for fiscal conservatives, this should leave a lump in your throat about the myth that Ryan is some courageous fiscal conservative trying to restore fiscal sanity to the nation.

Let's look at social security.
Image

That's not a typo. The Ryan plan does absolutely nothing about social security at all. Not a thing.



Let's get down to brass tax and look at the projected national debt under Obama and Ryan.
Image

Hmmmm. I guess $21 trillion in debt is better than $22 trillion in debt. However, I'm still not seeing the "fiscal conservative" in Ryan's plans. They don't seem much different from Obama's plans to financially ruin the nation and plunder the wealth our children have yet to earn.

For a complete interactive analysis of Obama and Ryan economic plans, visit this site-

http://www.tableausoftware.com/public/g ... -not-spend

and see all the other areas of government spending.

Ryan is just more of the same. Obama, Romney, Biden, Ryan, all a bunch of corpratists. America gets the government she deserves I suppose. And the world gets to taste the ashes of our failures in due time.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:56 pm

Neato Missile wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Apparently, you're easily convinced.

It seems that posted out-of-context quotes, and then supplying a list of ambiguous sources, which fail to show which allegations they support, is enough for you.

Is that accurate?
That is inaccurate. At no point did I indicate that everything I knew about Ryan came from Juan's OP. For my own use, nothing has proven more useful than the CBO's own report (http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43023), although there's nothing wrong with falling back on analyses by credible sources. The Washington Post put out a writeup of it yesterday (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ryans-budget-becomes-a-focus-of-the-presidential-race/2012/08/11/2d4e0daa-e3ba-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html?hpid=z2), and Business Insider was quick to post a rebuttal (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ryan-budgets-savings-come-from-shutting-down-the-federal-government-2012-8). Both corroborate the thrust of Juan's post: Paul Ryan's budget will drastically alter America's social programs for uncertain gain. In fact, in the short term, the CBO expects Ryan's budget will increase debt, and won't achieve a balanced budget until 2040 (see Table 1 on Page 12 of the CBO report).


That makes more sense. What I didn't get is that JB's stance isn't clear--except for the implied "Paul Ryan sucks!," so when you agreed with him, I assumed you agreed with his OP.

Let's talk about the budget proposal and the conclusion, to which you seem to agree: "Paul Ryan's budget will drastically alter America's social programs for uncertain gain. "

Anything projected into the future is uncertain, so all gains in the future are ultimately uncertain. Anyone could say this about any budget proposal. So...

(1) why do you think the costs of Paul Ryan's budget plan are not offset by the benefits?

(2) what alternative budget plan seems best to you? Obama's, or whose?




(I was reading the CBO Highlights section, and apparently the "CBO has not considered whether the specified paths are consistent with the policy proposals or budget figures released today by Chairman Ryan as part of his proposed budget resolution." So, whatever they're predicting may not even be what Paul Ryan is proposing... um wut?

Source:
show


That, and the CBO is predicting future GDP growth 20 and 30 years from now. You're not fooled by the econ. magic here, are you?

Then the CBO concludes that "it depends."
show


(3) So, I fail to see how the CBO, based on the Highlights section, supports your conclusion. All you can conclude is that "Paul Ryan's budget will drastically alter America's social programs." You could assert that the gain is uncertain, but so are the gains of any budget proposal projected into the future. What matters is the (a) degree of uncertainty (if that could even be determined) and (b) the arguments which supports the logic of one's projections. Would you care to expand on (a) and (b) in order to support your conclusion?
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:12 pm

patches70 wrote:Ryan is just more of the same. Obama, Romney, Biden, Ryan, all a bunch of corpratists.


Excellent, very fair post all around. Good work (I'm willing to presume it's accurate, because there doesn't appear to be an bias in it).
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:15 pm

patches70 wrote:It's really just a spending freeze, no cuts. It's a start, some would argue and that's fair enough I suppose, considering how much harm the system does to everyone in terms of rising medical costs.
Right now, Medicaid alone accounts for 25% of any given State's budget and is draining the Treasury at an alarming rate. Obama plans to speed up the bleeding, Ryan's plan just leaves the bleeding the same.

Now there is Medicare, you know, Ryan is going to throw Grandma off the cliff rhetoric? That's the current lib/democrat line in regards to Ryan's budget on Medicare. Let's see if the facts actually support that line.....


I don't understand the chart.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities reports that Ryan's plan would not only raise the cost of Medicare, it would also reduce the amount of Federal government spending on Medicare. They would simply push that cost onto the states. Ryan would raise the age of eligibility for medicare to 67, but the mandatory retirement age will remain at 65. So essentially, that means that there will be 2 years at least where grandma has to pay for her own health insurance. If she gets fired at 62 she probably wont be able to find a job and will therefor need to pay for it for even longer. And a repeal of Obamacare which today helps regulate how much a person can be charged for healthcare and how much a person can be charged for insurance - means that insurance costs will also rise. And also, Ryan's "voucher program" seems to favor the government's pocketbook and not the elderly's. And isn't "freezing spending" irresponsible if the actual costs are rising?


Q: What if Chairman Ryan’s Medicaid Block Grant Had Taken Effect in 2001?
A:Federal Medicaid Funds Would Have Fallen by 35 Percent or More in Most States, by Half in Some, by 2010

Ryan Medicaid Block Grant Would Cut Medicaid by One-Third by 2022 and More After That

At this point I'm wondering if the GOP didn't ok the Ryan pick because Obama is more than likely going to win the election. Now they may have a scapegoat to blame in Ryan.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:22 pm

Image

Does anyone have the sauce on this chart?
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby patches70 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:59 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
I don't understand the chart.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities reports that Ryan's plan would not only raise the cost of Medicare, it would also reduce the amount of Federal government spending on Medicare.


Why don't you post a chart from this Center on Budget and Policy Priorities that projects the amount the Federal Government is planning on spending in Medicare (Note, not Medicaid, they are two separate programs).

Ryan isn't cutting any spending on Medicare. Obamacare on the other hand, is cutting somewhere between $500 billion to $700 billion over the next ten years.
That's already passed as you know and the cuts start taking effect in probably 2014.

Ryan isn't going to cut any Medicare, that's suicide.

The chart I posted is just total spending. Nothing about conditions or anything else. Just gross $'s. Ryan's plan increases spending on Medicare.

Now, this is important, Ryan plans to keep Medicaid spending flat. This is very important to this point-

Center on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote:a deficit-reduction package would almost certainly make deep cuts in federal funds that support states and localities as they perform many basic public functions, including educating children, building roads and bridges, protecting public health, and providing law enforcement.


You see, Medicaid is funded mostly by the states, it's a huge unfunded mandate by the Federal government, of which the US government is famous for. If you were to go to any given State's budget, you'd find that Medicaid is probably the biggest cost in the budget. 25% or more for many States.
As you should know, Medicaid is a Joint Federal-State program. If the Federal government doesn't keep up with the costs, that is, not increasing it's share of the payments as the cost of the program invariably rises, indeed transfer's the costs of the program to the States.

You seem to be lumping it all in together and making assertions as evidenced by this-
JB wrote:They would simply push that cost onto the states.


You see, you are talking about Medicaid here, not Medicare. Medicare is a pure Federal Program, the States don't pay for it. The States do however, pay the lion's share of Medicaid.

If the Federal Government cuts Medicare, it doesn't matter to the States, they don't pay for it. It doesn't transfer crap to the States.

So please don't go lumping the two together and trying to make claims about Medicare that apply to Medicaid. Ryan isn't proposing cutting a damn thing from Medicare, quite the contrary. I looked at that site you mentioned, they seem to just be lumping together everything just like you are.
Think man, think! Post a chart from that site comparing Ryan's plans on Medicare alone and you'll see. Obama is cutting Medicare (for the benefit of other areas), Ryan is increasing Medicare (at the expense of other areas).
Either way, both plans end up at the same place, different policies that have the exact same results. Fiscal insanity.

Don't forget, everything about economics is about Trade offs. There is no getting around that truth.

Medicare, since the baby boomers are a big voter segment, is not going to be messed with. At least not any more than it is already being gutted by Obamacare.
Medicaid, on the other hand, the poor and downtrodden aren't so much of a voting block I suppose, and thus is ripe to be cut. Except this is going head long into Obamacare, which is expanding Medicaid by leaps and bounds at the expense of Medicare. Don't think for a moment this won't be played up to the old folks.

It's funny watching the lib talking heads contort in various fashions to hide this fact.
It's almost as funny as the conservatives bowing at the alter of Ryan's "courageous" fiscal stand when he makes no stand at all nor cuts the overall government debt a single cent. The national debt is going to increase at a very slightly less rate under Ryan's plans than Obama's, but either way, $20+ trillion dollars can't be paid back. Ever.

By 2021 just to service the debt is going to cost, per year, a minimum of $800 billion, and by some estimates $1.5 trillion. Just to service the debt!.

The US will be paying interest on debt that far exceeds the entire budgets of some 95% of the nations of the world. Talk about insane! It's hilarious if it weren't so tragic when considering what this means for the next generation.

Both Ryan and Obama plans don't do a damn thing to fix anything at all. Both plans are a sure course to complete fiscal collapse. There is no growing our way out of this. Debt is growing faster than GDP. There is no if's ands or buts about it. It is unsustainable.

But, all the while, there are people on this side and that side pointing fingers at each other when both the Dems and the Reps are complete idiots when it comes to our money. It's pathetic.



JB wrote: And isn't "freezing spending" irresponsible if the actual costs are rising?




Isn't spending money you don't have irresponsible?
Isn't borrowing money that you will never be able to ever pay back also irresponsible? (Not to mention immoral, unethical, fraudulent?)

The thing about government is when the crap hits the fan, finding someone who was supposed to be "responsible", tends to be quite difficult......
That applies to both parties obviously.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby patches70 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:[

And also, Ryan's "voucher program" seems to favor the government's pocketbook and not the elderly's. And isn't "freezing spending" irresponsible if the actual costs are rising?




This applies just as much (if not more) to Obama. Since he is cutting Medicare, a full Federal Program of which the States are not liable for, that favors the Federal Government's pocketbooks, obviously. Cutting Medicare only affects the elderly and those who are on Medicare, not those on Medicaid. And guess what, Obama (and the Dems passing Obamacare through legislative chicanery) is the one cutting Medicare.
And, by increasing the size and scope of Medicaid, of which the State are on the hook for, you see the spending by the Federal government is being "cut" by Obama by increasing the costs to the States.

Why do you think so many States are raising hell about Obamacare? Because their already tight budgets are going to get even tighter.

Any label you or anyone really, attempts to pin on the Republicans applies equally to the Democrats.

The sooner everyone realizes this and starts telling both parties to go to Hell, the better the nation will be in the long run. If we keep going down these fake partisan roads we'll all be too busy arguing which political party is screwing us the least and never see the damn cliff we are driving right over. The fall itself is pretty fun, it's that crash at the end that sucks balls.

Something I figure Americans will learn one way or another soon enough.

It's our own fault really. We want the government to start getting it's sh[b[/b]it together but at the same time tell them to not touch the sacred cows of the very programs that are the most expensive, then ain't never will things get fixed.
I mean, how can we expect the program of Medicare to stay the same forever? Same goes with all the Federal programs, eventually, painful decisions will have to be made. The longer we wait to actually fix the stuff the worse it'll be for everyone. There are no sacred cows when economic reality hits.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Neato Missile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:06 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Let's talk about the budget proposal and the conclusion, to which you seem to agree: "Paul Ryan's budget will drastically alter America's social programs for uncertain gain. "

Anything projected into the future is uncertain, so all gains in the future are ultimately uncertain. Anyone could say this about any budget proposal. So...

(1) why do you think the costs of Paul Ryan's budget plan are not offset by the benefits?

(2) what alternative budget plan seems best to you? Obama's, or whose?
Truthfully, "uncertain gain" was my attempt at speaking diplomatically. To me, Ryan's alterations will clearly be a loss; the other side has perfectly good reasons for thinking the opposite. As you say, without implementation nothing is certain.

Social Security and Medicare are American institutions, not welfare but rather a hard-earned reward for decades of productive citizenship. Their loss (or drastic reduction) would be a detriment to the people, but an acceptable one if it was the sacrifice necessary to create a responsible budget. Having said that, I really don't feel like Ryan has proven his case yet. His hesitation to cut military spending makes sense politically, but not ideologically. "Military spending is currently more than 4.0 percent of GDP and Representative Ryan has indicated that he wants to keep spending at its current levels or raise it," (Business Insider) which means that many other services will be cut, whereas with judicious defense cuts these services could merely be pared back.

More importantly, Ryan's budget is seemingly incomplete. It takes into account the "closing of tax loopholes" without specifying which loopholes would be closed, and as per the CBO report Ryan anticipates an increase of revenues from 15% of the GDP to 19% in the coming years, without explaining how the revenues would be generated. Hundreds of billions of dollars unaccounted for mean that right now, the Ryan budget is more PR move than anything. Hopefully the media spotlight will lead to a clarification of the finer details in the coming weeks.

The Green Party's budget (http://www.gp.org/committees/platform/2012/economic-justice-and-sustainability.php) is closest to my sensibilities, in that it attempts to tackle the debt through cuts to military spending and corporate welfare, but I can't claim that it's more fleshed-out than the Ryan plan. I've seen it bandied about that "something (Ryan plan) is better than nothing (Obama plan)," and while it makes a good soundbite I can't agree. The status quo might be hopelessly corporatist and a little bleak, but that doesn't mean that the alternative would be better-- in fact, I believe that if Ryan's plan became reality, it would be notably worse.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:47 am

patches70 wrote:This applies just as much (if not more) to Obama. Since he is cutting Medicare, a full Federal Program of which the States are not liable for, that favors the Federal Government's pocketbooks, obviously. Cutting Medicare only affects the elderly and those who are on Medicare, not those on Medicaid. And guess what, Obama (and the Dems passing Obamacare through legislative chicanery) is the one cutting Medicare.
And, by increasing the size and scope of Medicaid, of which the State are on the hook for, you see the spending by the Federal government is being "cut" by Obama by increasing the costs to the States.

Throughout all of your posts you are forgetting to mention one thing: savings.

Obama is not directly cutting Medicare spending, he's saving money by cutting the provider's costs. Ryan's plan just cuts government spending. That shifts the costs to the people who use Medicare.
Medicare spending will continue to grow, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), but ACA will slow that growth. According to a report from the Kaiser Family Health Foundation over the next 10 years, the federal government will devote about $500 billion less to Medicare than it would have without ACA.

CMS and the Kaiser Family Foundation tell ABC News that there will be no benefit cuts to Medicare. They say instead of Medicare’s being cut, there will be much more spending at the end of a 10-year window, but it does slow the rate of that growth. This is all unless Congress makes drastic changes to Medicare, for example passing House Budget Chairman Rep. Paul Ryan’s Medicare Plan.

CMS says—and Kaiser agrees—that spending will be reduced by getting rid of fraud and ending overpayments to private insurance companies. It sends a message to those insurance companies: Operate more efficiently.

source^

patches70 wrote:Any label you or anyone really, attempts to pin on the Republicans applies equally to the Democrats.

Republicans are Conservative.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:48 am

patches70 wrote:Why don't you post a chart from this Center on Budget and Policy Priorities that projects the amount the Federal Government is planning on spending in Medicare (Note, not Medicaid, they are two separate programs).

patches70 wrote:Think man, think! Post a chart from that site comparing Ryan's plans on Medicare alone and you'll see.

Because charts don't make statements true, they just make them easier to digest.
Mike Shedlock, the author of your charts, is a Conservative blogger/economist. . . I'm unsure how he put his charts together, but to me it looks like he ignored savings altogether, which has been a popular trick. This isn't thinking, it's regurgitating.
Also, there's almost no way you can trust a budget prediction spanning out into 2021.

patches70 wrote: Ryan isn't proposing cutting a damn thing from Medicare, quite the contrary.

Well I did say in that very post you quoted that Ryan would be cutting millions of senior citizens from receiving Medicare until they are 67, which when combined with the Mandatory retirement age of 65 would mean that Seniors would have to pay for their own insurance for a period of no less than 2 years. And he would repeal Obamacare, which controls how much money they can be charged for insurance, resulting in another rise in cost for Seniors.
Also, scroll to page 13 here. The Congressional Budget Office explains that the Ryan Plan would add $716 billion over 10 years and also increases Medicare outlays by $415 billion. I think that just about bankrupts it?
His plan also introduces the donut hole all over again. Obama's plan saved 2.1 Billion dollars on prescriptions, or $604 PER PERSON.

patches70 wrote: Obama is cutting Medicare (for the benefit of other areas), Ryan is increasing Medicare (at the expense of other areas).
Either way, both plans end up at the same place, different policies that have the exact same results. Fiscal insanity.

Obama is not cutting Medicare services, he cut how much could be charged for the services. His plan actually lowered the cost to the Federal Government and to the consumer. The Congressional Budget Office has also said that it will reduce our deficit. This is not fiscal insanity.

Ryan isn't increasing government spending on Medicare, he's lowering it. That's what he considers his selling point. He's locking the government's spending to match the growth rate of our GDP plus 1/2%. Everyone agrees that will fall short of the actual rise in costs of health care. The government will stop paying health care providers and will instead give Medicare recipients "vouchers" so they can pay the providers or insurers themselves. This means that while the costs go up and voucher spending will only match the GDP, Medicare recipients will have to burden the difference in cost themselves. And they will have to pay a lot more than what they pay now.

patches70 wrote:Medicare, since the baby boomers are a big voter segment, is not going to be messed with. At least not any more than it is already being gutted by Obamacare.

I just want to be clear on this because as far as I know all Obama did was lower costs, not interfere with services.

patches70 wrote:Except this is going head long into Obamacare, which is expanding Medicaid by leaps and bounds at the expense of Medicare.

Where and how much?

patches70 wrote:It's almost as funny as the conservatives bowing at the alter of Ryan's "courageous" fiscal stand when he makes no stand at all nor cuts the overall government debt a single cent.

The Ryan budget balances our nation's budget around 2040. Weirdly, the House Progressive Caucus budget balances it within 10 years, and even though Ryan helped shape it, he changed his mind and helped Republicans block it.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:50 am



This video is actually very sad.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:53 am

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/22085

For those of you who like to read,

This is where you can find the long-term analysis for Ryan's budget.



Is anyone else wondering how making every Senior citizen buy stocks for their Medicare plan going to work out for the 1%?
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:59 am

Ludicrous and Cruel

Paul Krugman wrote: Many commentators swooned earlier this week after House Republicans, led by the Budget Committee chairman, Paul Ryan, unveiled their budget proposals. They lavished praise on Mr. Ryan, asserting that his plan set a new standard of fiscal seriousness.
Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

Well, they should have waited until people who know how to read budget numbers had a chance to study the proposal. For the G.O.P. plan turns out not to be serious at all. Instead, it’s simultaneously ridiculous and heartless.

How ridiculous is it? Let me count the ways — or rather a few of the ways, because there are more howlers in the plan than I can cover in one column.

First, Republicans have once again gone all in for voodoo economics — the claim, refuted by experience, that tax cuts pay for themselves.

Specifically, the Ryan proposal trumpets the results of an economic projection from the Heritage Foundation, which claims that the plan’s tax cuts would set off a gigantic boom. Indeed, the foundation initially predicted that the G.O.P. plan would bring the unemployment rate down to 2.8 percent — a number we haven’t achieved since the Korean War. After widespread jeering, the unemployment projection vanished from the Heritage Foundation’s Web site, but voodoo still permeates the rest of the analysis.

In particular, the original voodoo proposition — the claim that lower taxes mean higher revenue — is still very much there. The Heritage Foundation projection has large tax cuts actually increasing revenue by almost $600 billion over the next 10 years.

A more sober assessment from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office tells a different story. It finds that a large part of the supposed savings from spending cuts would go, not to reduce the deficit, but to pay for tax cuts. In fact, the budget office finds that over the next decade the plan would lead to bigger deficits and more debt than current law.

And about those spending cuts: leave health care on one side for a moment and focus on the rest of the proposal. It turns out that Mr. Ryan and his colleagues are assuming drastic cuts in nonhealth spending without explaining how that is supposed to happen.

How drastic? According to the budget office, which analyzed the plan using assumptions dictated by House Republicans, the proposal calls for spending on items other than Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid — but including defense — to fall from 12 percent of G.D.P. last year to 6 percent of G.D.P. in 2022, and just 3.5 percent of G.D.P. in the long run.

That last number is less than we currently spend on defense alone; it’s not much bigger than federal spending when Calvin Coolidge was president, and the United States, among other things, had only a tiny military establishment. How could such a drastic shrinking of government take place without crippling essential public functions? The plan doesn’t say.

And then there’s the much-ballyhooed proposal to abolish Medicare and replace it with vouchers that can be used to buy private health insurance.

The point here is that privatizing Medicare does nothing, in itself, to limit health-care costs. In fact, it almost surely raises them by adding a layer of middlemen. Yet the House plan assumes that we can cut health-care spending as a percentage of G.D.P. despite an aging population and rising health care costs.

The only way that can happen is if those vouchers are worth much less than the cost of health insurance. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that by 2030 the value of a voucher would cover only a third of the cost of a private insurance policy equivalent to Medicare as we know it. So the plan would deprive many and probably most seniors of adequate health care.

And that neither should nor will happen. Mr. Ryan and his colleagues can write down whatever numbers they like, but seniors vote. And when they find that their health-care vouchers are grossly inadequate, they’ll demand and get bigger vouchers — wiping out the plan’s supposed savings.

In short, this plan isn’t remotely serious; on the contrary, it’s ludicrous.

And it’s also cruel.

In the past, Mr. Ryan has talked a good game about taking care of those in need. But as the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, of the $4 trillion in spending cuts he proposes over the next decade, two-thirds involve cutting programs that mainly serve low-income Americans. And by repealing last year’s health reform, without any replacement, the plan would also deprive an estimated 34 million nonelderly Americans of health insurance.

So the pundits who praised this proposal when it was released were punked. The G.O.P. budget plan isn’t a good-faith effort to put America’s fiscal house in order; it’s voodoo economics, with an extra dose of fantasy, and a large helping of mean-spiritedness.


http://economistsview.typepad.com/econo ... story.html
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:00 am

Krugman's very skilled in rhetoric.
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Re: Who is Paul Ryan and what does he stand for?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:08 am

Paul Ryan stands against lies and gimmicks in Obamacare (in 2010):

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