Is Obama a Marxist?

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Is Obama a Marxist?

Of course!, because Marxist means whatever I want it to mean
10
23%
Yes
8
19%
He's kinda Marxist
7
16%
I dunno cuz I'm agnostic
1
2%
No
17
40%
 
Total votes : 43

Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:19 pm

In order to answer this question, I'll assume "Marxist" means "one who wishes to implement the means and seeks the ends as described in the Communist Manifesto."



(A) The following is a list of demands:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


(B) Implementing the above "would, as believed by Marx and Engels, be a precursor to the stateless and classless society."


(C) What were the means?
-organize the workers and beat up the bourgeoisie
-somehow impose the above demands using an organization which is not a State but is a State (?)
-somehow get rid of that organization
-???
-PROFIT (end goal of the classless society realized)


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Obama cannot accurately be described as a Marxist because:

(A) his goals do not fit all of the above demands in that list,
(B) his ultimate goal is not a stateless/classless society (it's another 4 years as president, managing a political capitalist society, then enjoying the future income and prestige that follows)
(C) lolwut. No way is that similar to Obama's current means of using/working within the state in order to implement his policies.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:23 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:(C) lolwut.


Sums up my feelings on the matter pretty well.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:28 pm

Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive? okay

I think a better question is, that can cut more clearly to the question and the issue at hand, does Progressivism have a lot in common with Communism? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common.

Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection? Progressivism is Communism light.

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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive? okay

I think a better question is, that can cut more clearly to the question and the issue at hand, does Progressivism have a lot in common with Communism? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common.

Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection? Progressivism is Communism light.


Does the Democratic Party have A LOT in common with the Republican Party? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common. Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:31 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.
Last edited by Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:31 pm

60 Phatbucks for a Phattism poll though!

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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:45 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:53 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:02 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Enacting laws without Congressional approval while ignoring laws already on the books. Yesterday was the first official day of his illegal Dream Act Amnesty Program.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:10 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


How does that work?

What criteria must one meet in order to be considered Democrat?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:22 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


How does that work?

What criteria must one meet in order to be considered Democrat?


I suppose it would be more accurate to say that 99% of the Democratic party consists of Republicans pretending to be something else. The Democrats are in no way left wing.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:23 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Enacting laws without Congressional approval while ignoring laws already on the books. Yesterday was the first official day of his illegal Dream Act Amnesty Program.


How the hell is that progressive?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:44 pm

Phatscotty wrote:repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt


Wait - Teddy Roosevelt was a member of a party that named itself "the Progressive Party" for a period of 4 years, the other 56 years of his life he was a member of the Republican Party.

if someone is something for at least 4 years of their life, they are always that thing = PhatScotty is a virgin :o
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


I do not believe Obama is a Marxist, and agree with those who say he is conservative. However, if we are applying Marxism based on a 150 year old treatise instead of more contemporary definitions, Scott may have a point.

    > 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    One could argue that Obama's tax policy are equal to a heavy progressive tax.

    > 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

    as above, vis a vis the Capital Gains tax

    > 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    One could say the Federal Reserve and TARP are roads to this end.

    > 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

    One could argue proposals like the Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act of 2010 are a road to this end.

    > 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into
    > cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    One could argue the existing government stakes in GM, Chrysler and ongoing ownership of the TVA, etc. are a road to this end.

    > 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and
    > combination of education with industrial production.

    This has already come to pass.

So, if Scott says "Obama is a Marxist" is this: (a) a rational statement with which you agree, (b) a rational statement with which you disagree, or, (c) an irrational statement?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:09 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


If you won't believe Obama's own words about himself, then who's words would you believe?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:17 pm

Okay, but the Communist Manifesto really isn't a great point, but it was more of a counter to something specific said on the first page about how Progressivism has a lot in common with Communism.

We also have to include Obama's deep connections with Frank Marshall Davis, who basically filled the role as Obama's father when Obama moved to Hawaii when he was around 10 years old.

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I think Obama quotes/speaks of/shares experiences with Frank Marhsall Davis 27 times in his own auto-biography. Also, Frank's name was scrubbed from future editions of "Dreams from my Father". Don't spend any brain power questioning why he would do that though
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Phatscotty wrote:We also have to include Obama's deep connections with Frank Marshall Davis


So I was teetering at "B" (rational statement with which I disagree), but the conspiracy theory pushes me back into a "C" (irrational statement).

John Hinckley's family were friends with the the Bush family. When he shot Reagan was it part of a Bush plot to propel George H.W. into the White House?

Imagining Manchurian Candidate scenarios, multi-layered plot lines and decades long plans that have been cultivated in the shadows can definitely make politics fun. But usually they're things one should not openly discuss if one wants to be taken seriously. Kind of like jock itch.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:54 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


I do not believe Obama is a Marxist, and agree with those who say he is conservative. However, if we are applying Marxism based on a 150 year old treatise instead of more contemporary definitions, Scott may have a point.

    > 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    One could argue that Obama's tax policy are equal to a heavy progressive tax.

    > 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

    as above, vis a vis the Capital Gains tax

    > 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    One could say the Federal Reserve and TARP are roads to this end.

    > 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

    One could argue proposals like the Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act of 2010 are a road to this end.

    > 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into
    > cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    One could argue the existing government stakes in GM, Chrysler and ongoing ownership of the TVA, etc. are a road to this end.

    > 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and
    > combination of education with industrial production.

    This has already come to pass.

So, if Scott says "Obama is a Marxist" is this: (a) a rational statement with which you agree, (b) a rational statement with which you disagree, or, (c) an irrational statement?


In the sense in which you described Marxism, it would be a rational statement which I might agree with but am having difficult with accepting as true because...

the above are not including the other main demands of Marxism--namely, 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Therefore, the way in which you described Marxism cannot correct because it isn't Marxism.


We could settle for "Quasi-Marxism," or lol "Obamism," but that renders Marxism meaningless--in comparison to other terms which better describe Obama.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:55 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:We also have to include Obama's deep connections with Frank Marshall Davis


So I was teetering at "B" (rational statement with which I disagree), but the conspiracy theory pushes me back into a "C" (irrational statement).

John Hinckley's family were friends with the the Bush family. When he shot Reagan was it part of a Bush plot to propel George H.W. into the White House?


duh :P

saxitoxin wrote:Imagining Manchurian Candidate scenarios, multi-layered plot lines and decades long plans that have been cultivated in the shadows can definitely make politics fun. But usually they're things one should not openly discuss if one wants to be taken seriously. Kind of like jock itch.


Davis was a Marxist, and he mentored Obama. No conspiracy to see here. Just a Marxist Frank Marshall Davis mentoring a young and impressionable Barack Hussein Obama, for years. Obama thought of him as the father he never had.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Imagining Manchurian Candidate scenarios, multi-layered plot lines and decades long plans that have been cultivated in the shadows can definitely make politics fun. But usually they're things one should not openly discuss if one wants to be taken seriously. Kind of like jock itch.


Hey, Davis was a Marxist, and he mentored Obama. Not conspiracy to see here. Only Marxism


David Horowitz' parents - HIS PARENTS!!! :o - were members of the Revolutionary Communist Party. Not book club "I'm a Marxist - can I get a grande espresso, I'm late for the midnight showing of Easy Rider?" kind of Marxists but, training-in-the-forest with AK-47 Marxists. Is David Horowitz a Marxist sleeper agent secretly trying to destroy the Republican Party from the inside?

That question probably doesn't matter because, as your dramatic photo evidence shows, Obama and Davis TILTED THEIR HEAD THE SAME WAY IN PHOTOS A PHOTO. Case closed. Point, Scott.

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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:50 am

hahaha chuckle. I have actually heard Horowitz speak many times, and if he is a Communist sleeper cell, then he is giving away all the Communists secrets! But maybe they are fake secrets, hmmmm. I just wanted to show photos of the 2 people that had more influence in Obama's life than terrorist Bill Ayers, and bonafide Marxist Reverend Jeremiah Wright.

But, to get back to the most serious of business, I want to know. Can the community agree, that what is meant by the word "Marxist", (to speak simply for maximum communication impact) as one who prescribes to, follows, is heavily influenced by, shares the philosophy and the theories of Karl Marx and Communism? Anyone feel free to add what else defines a Marxist.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:00 am

But the means and ends differ.

Being a Marxist != being a social democrat, or Stalinist, or progressive---even though those forms of governance share some/many similarities.

It just isn't accurate to label a social democrat or progressive as a Marxist.




(Furthermore, thanks, BVP for clearing that up, and you're still a socialist.)
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:04 am

Phatscotty wrote:But, to get back to the most serious of business, I want to know. Can the community agree, that what is meant by the word "Marxist", (to speak simply for maximum communication impact) as one who prescribes to, follows, is heavily influenced by, shares the philosophy and the theories of Karl Marx and Communism?


That seems like a reasonable definition Scott, in that you limit it to "is influenced by ... the theories of Karl Marx" and not an illogical "is influenced by ... people who are influenced by Karl Marx."

For instance, Saxi loves Oprah but that doesn't mean he supports Obama.

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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:19 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:But the means and ends differ.

Being a Marxist != being a social democrat, or Stalinist, or progressive---even though those forms of governance share some/many similarities.

It just isn't accurate to label a social democrat or progressive as a Marxist.



(Furthermore, thanks, BVP for clearing that up, and you're still a socialist.)


I wish to challenge the progressive assertion. The Communist party of America officially changed their name to the Progressive Party of America sometime in the early 1900's. They may have dropped a couple of planks from their agenda over the last century, but I would say the drops are more due to being outdated. You seem to agree there are some/many similarities, I would just state it's my opinion that the similarities that Progressives share with Communists/Marxists are many/barely indistinguishable. Especially with all the class warfare and racial and social division that is starting to be called "acceptable".

I understand people have the urge to get defensive because of the negative annotations connected to Marxism/Communism, but those annotations are well deserved and when you strip it all down to philosophy and policy and words and actions, they are the same thing if you allow just a little room for evolution and the technological era.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:36 am

Phatscotty wrote:The Communist party of America officially changed their name to the Progressive Party of America sometime in the early 1900's.


No, this did not happen. There are six unarguably national Communist parties operating in the United States under the following names:

- Revolutionary Communist Party (Maoist)

- Communist Party USA (Paleo-Marxist)

- Workers World (Juche)

- Socialist Workers Party (Pathfinder)

- Socialist Party USA (Trotskyist)

- Party of Socialism and Liberation (?)

I've never heard of an extant group called the Progressive Party. I bing-dot-commed for their website but couldn't find it.
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