Is Obama a Marxist?

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Is Obama a Marxist?

Of course!, because Marxist means whatever I want it to mean
10
23%
Yes
8
19%
He's kinda Marxist
7
16%
I dunno cuz I'm agnostic
1
2%
No
17
40%
 
Total votes : 43

Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:19 pm

In order to answer this question, I'll assume "Marxist" means "one who wishes to implement the means and seeks the ends as described in the Communist Manifesto."



(A) The following is a list of demands:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


(B) Implementing the above "would, as believed by Marx and Engels, be a precursor to the stateless and classless society."


(C) What were the means?
-organize the workers and beat up the bourgeoisie
-somehow impose the above demands using an organization which is not a State but is a State (?)
-somehow get rid of that organization
-???
-PROFIT (end goal of the classless society realized)


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Obama cannot accurately be described as a Marxist because:

(A) his goals do not fit all of the above demands in that list,
(B) his ultimate goal is not a stateless/classless society (it's another 4 years as president, managing a political capitalist society, then enjoying the future income and prestige that follows)
(C) lolwut. No way is that similar to Obama's current means of using/working within the state in order to implement his policies.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:23 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:(C) lolwut.


Sums up my feelings on the matter pretty well.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:28 pm

Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive? okay

I think a better question is, that can cut more clearly to the question and the issue at hand, does Progressivism have a lot in common with Communism? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common.

Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection? Progressivism is Communism light.

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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive? okay

I think a better question is, that can cut more clearly to the question and the issue at hand, does Progressivism have a lot in common with Communism? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common.

Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection? Progressivism is Communism light.


Does the Democratic Party have A LOT in common with the Republican Party? The answer is yes, they have A LOT in common. Why is it so difficult for people to make the connection?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:31 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.
Last edited by Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:31 pm

60 Phatbucks for a Phattism poll though!

;)
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:45 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:53 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Night Strike on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:02 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Enacting laws without Congressional approval while ignoring laws already on the books. Yesterday was the first official day of his illegal Dream Act Amnesty Program.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:10 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


How does that work?

What criteria must one meet in order to be considered Democrat?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:22 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


How does that work?

What criteria must one meet in order to be considered Democrat?


I suppose it would be more accurate to say that 99% of the Democratic party consists of Republicans pretending to be something else. The Democrats are in no way left wing.
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Frigidus on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:23 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Enacting laws without Congressional approval while ignoring laws already on the books. Yesterday was the first official day of his illegal Dream Act Amnesty Program.


How the hell is that progressive?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:44 pm

Phatscotty wrote:repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt


Wait - Teddy Roosevelt was a member of a party that named itself "the Progressive Party" for a period of 4 years, the other 56 years of his life he was a member of the Republican Party.

if someone is something for at least 4 years of their life, they are always that thing = PhatScotty is a virgin :o
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:03 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.


I do not believe Obama is a Marxist, and agree with those who say he is conservative. However, if we are applying Marxism based on a 150 year old treatise instead of more contemporary definitions, Scott may have a point.

    > 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

    One could argue that Obama's tax policy are equal to a heavy progressive tax.

    > 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

    as above, vis a vis the Capital Gains tax

    > 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

    One could say the Federal Reserve and TARP are roads to this end.

    > 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

    One could argue proposals like the Protecting Cyberspace as a National Asset Act of 2010 are a road to this end.

    > 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into
    > cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

    One could argue the existing government stakes in GM, Chrysler and ongoing ownership of the TVA, etc. are a road to this end.

    > 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and
    > combination of education with industrial production.

    This has already come to pass.

So, if Scott says "Obama is a Marxist" is this: (a) a rational statement with which you agree, (b) a rational statement with which you disagree, or, (c) an irrational statement?
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Re: Is Obama a Marxist?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:09 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Can we all safely assume Obama is a Progressive?


No, we can't. What progressive things has Obama done (speeches don't count)?

Edit: Another lolwut for the progessive=communist line.


Does a speech of him admitting (proudly might I add) and listing all the progressive things he has done count? If it helps, this speech is delivered at a famous progressive landmark, 100% in the name of Progressivism, repeatedly invoking the name of Progressive Teddy Roosevelt, and the speech is titled "New Nationalism"?

While I wait for you approval, can I also sneak in a small qualifying question to more accurately gauge your definition of progressive, by asking if you think Hillary Clinton is a Progressive?


No, that doesn't count. Obama is a Republican pretending to be a Democrat. He has done nothing to differentiate himself from George Bush. You don't seem to take Obama at his word in any other respect, so why would you believe he's a progressive?

Edit: Hilary isn't as much of a wolf in sheep's clothing as Obama, but she's hardly Kucinich/Sanders.


If you won't believe Obama's own words about himself, then who's words would you believe?
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