For those who claim to be for freedom...

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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:59 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:The only possibly good about this whole ordeal, is that the dude's name is Snowden. Catch-22 is probably my favorite novel, so every time I come across his name, I think of Snowden from the novel, and Yossarian being traumatized, and Snowden saying he's cold, and Yossarian helpless and in shock saying "There, there. There, there" since nothing else could be done.


--Andy


Ohh, that's why his name seemed so familiar. It's been years since I've read Catch-22.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:58 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:08 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:23 am

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:35 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:17 pm

Woodruff wrote:Facebook helping things out:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/creepy-facebook/


Tying into the Facebook angle of things, here is a video that I hadn't seen
before (it's an Op-Ed piece, but very interesting):

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:46 pm

This actually made me laugh out loud. I mean...it seems like such a big "BecauseFuckYou" kind of a response:

http://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-says-it-cant-search-own-emails
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:52 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby patches70 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Your Glenn Greenwald is going to be testifying soon before Congress about the NSA surveillance program. Along with a libertarian testimony from the Cato institute.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/glenn-gr ... veillance/
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:26 pm

Move to Curb NSA Surveillance Program Defeated in House

Close margin too.


Basically, they want to try again to get rid of it, but the US Patriot Act expires on 2015 (so unless they renew certain sections, then that's how it'll be 'defeated'). I figure by then that people will have mostly forgotten about it, so they can quietly renew it.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby patches70 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:49 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Move to Curb NSA Surveillance Program Defeated in House

Close margin too.




217 to 205 was the vote.

Someone went ahead and did some addition. The 217 congressmen who voted to uphold the program received twice the campaign financing from the defense industry than did the 205 members.

Imagine that.....

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/0 ... -nsa-vote/
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:22 pm

patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Move to Curb NSA Surveillance Program Defeated in House

Close margin too.




217 to 205 was the vote.

Someone went ahead and did some addition. The 217 congressmen who voted to uphold the program received twice the campaign financing from the defense industry than did the 205 members.

Imagine that.....

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/0 ... -nsa-vote/


The Tea Party worked with the civil Liberty Democrats (again), but the holdover "Bush" Republicans and the homeland security Democrats prevailed.

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby GreecePwns on Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:26 pm

It would've been vetoed anyway.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:33 pm

GreecePwns wrote:It would've been vetoed anyway.


Elections have consequences. There is a clear difference between decent politicians and tyrants regardless of party. The Tea Party and civil Liberty Democrats have already had their leadership positions and committee chairs and club memberships pulled for not going along with "business as usual". They drew a line in the sand just recently, and they didn't blink, and Boehner/Pelosi went through with "punishing" all those who dares stand in the way and try to change things.



2014 can be the year we really start to turn things around! We already have a foothold, have already been tested, have already survived. The Democrats are starting to show up, and maybe it is because their seat is on the line, but that shows the constituencies demands are strong and that is healthy as well. The campaign for Liberty continues to grow!
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:43 pm

GreecePwns wrote:It would've been vetoed anyway.


Perhaps, but at least there would be tension within government.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:52 pm

patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Move to Curb NSA Surveillance Program Defeated in House

Close margin too.




217 to 205 was the vote.

Someone went ahead and did some addition. The 217 congressmen who voted to uphold the program received twice the campaign financing from the defense industry than did the 205 members.

Imagine that.....

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/0 ... -nsa-vote/


That's interesting link, and thanks for sharing.


Corruption/crony capitalism can be difficult to demonstrate.

Why didn't those receiving twice as less vote "Yes" as well? Is there some significant difference between receiving $20,000 and $40,000 from the defense/intelligence industries? What else influences the politicians' decision, and how can we control for that?

If this is about measuring the pull of the intelligence industry, then why dirty the sample by including the entire defense war industry?
(I guess they're intertwined, but to what degree for each donator and for each politician?)
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby patches70 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Move to Curb NSA Surveillance Program Defeated in House

Close margin too.




217 to 205 was the vote.

Someone went ahead and did some addition. The 217 congressmen who voted to uphold the program received twice the campaign financing from the defense industry than did the 205 members.

Imagine that.....

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/0 ... -nsa-vote/


That's interesting link, and thanks for sharing.


Corruption/crony capitalism can be difficult to demonstrate.

Why didn't those receiving twice as less vote "Yes" as well? Is there some significant difference between receiving $20,000 and $40,000 from the defense/intelligence industries? What else influences the politicians' decision, and how can we control for that?

If this is about measuring the pull of the intelligence industry, then why dirty the sample by including the entire defense war industry?
(I guess they're intertwined, but to what degree for each donator and for each politician?)


I don't know why those receiving less didn't vote for the program. Maybe because they are "punishing" the donors "Well, if you won't donate to my campaign then I won't vote for anything that favors you, give me more money and you'll get a vote in the future", kind of a shake down?
Maybe those voting against the program did so because they believe it's wrong, even if they've received some funding from the defense industry.
Probably all kinds of thing influence politicians votes, besides money. But at least money gets one an audience with the politician to at least state the case for a favorable vote.

AS to why measure the pull of the intelligence industry and dirtying the sample with the entire Military Industrial complex, well, I'm not naive. The authors of the study, the article, have their own agenda I'd guess. Which includes muddying the waters to get a sympathetic reaction by people who read the story, to influence thought. As all media is designed to, ultimately.

One could get all the information themselves as to actual donation amounts to actual politicians. I can easily post an entire list of who voted for, against and the twelve who abstained from voting, right here. Then one need go politician by politician and get actual donation amounts as all that is public record due to campaign finance laws.

But it's a lot of work, a lot more than most are willing to do, if they aren't being paid to do it. One would have to care enough I guess. But the actual work itself isn't too hard, just tedious. Anyone with a computer and half a brain could do it. But coming to conclusions based on even that what seems "complete" information, is still not a complete picture to answer to the "why".
I'm sure there are some politicians who voted for the NSA program that truly believe it's the right thing to do.

I disagree with that view, but each has his/her own way of looking at things I guess. Time will tell if this NSA stuff is a good thing or a bad thing or nothing at all.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:34 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:41 pm

And in the near future, lawyers for SUSPECTED terrorists could in the near future be considered as giving material aid to terrorists. Note this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holder_v._Humanitarian_Law_Project
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby john9blue on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:21 pm

Woodruff wrote:Apparently, it's illegal for we commoners to know who we're at war with:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130727/23333223971/feds-say-its-classified-info-to-say-who-were-war-with.shtml


i know the book gets brought up a lot recently, but this is literally straight out of 1984
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:57 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:12 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:36 am


At least some people are working on this.. or were, before recent ironically well-timed threat alert. [sigh]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =208351295

Not that this would be a full solution, but it would be a step in the correct direction.
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:57 pm

It seems as though there is a very short jump from this to just outright manufacturing and planting evidence:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805
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Re: For those who claim to be for freedom...

Postby Woodruff on Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:45 pm

...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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