Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:However, to attain anything like the basic rights, ability to earn a living we have now definitely requires women having control of their OWN reproduction, without having to necessarily seek approval of whatever men they associate with (whether married or not).


That still doesn't explain why you and the other radical feminists are demanding that the government (aka, everyone else) has to pay for all their sexual choices. If you believe that women should not seek approval from a man for their actions, why are you demanding that the men pay the money required for those actions? How does relying on others for payment cause those women to be free?

"me and other radical feminists" Funny, that.. VERY funny!

And no, I don't demand that the government "pay for all their sexual choices". I DO say that all INSURANCE should fully cover health issues and that reproductive health is most definitely a health issue for women.

How you twist that into a claim that I demand free payment should be interesting.. but then, I rarely see you explain your thinking. You seem to prefer to toss out blurbs like that as if they were true.


Insurance companies are forced to pay for it without charging a co-pay and without charging women higher premiums, which really means everyone has to pay a higher premium in order to cover the costs.

Correction. Insurance companies are not allowed to single out this particular medication, because when they did so in the past, it was found to be discriminatory. There was no similar type medication denied to men, it was specific to women and therefore denial was discriminatio against women. Or, to paraphrase, being a woman is not a "pre-existing condition". Also, that coverage stops at age 45 or so. (40 in some cases), regardless of whether the woman still needs the medication or not. So, just when a woman is most at risk for having a child with serious birth defects, they cannot get birth control unless they pay for it fully themselvs.

Per the "no copay" bit.. not at all sure about that. Do you have evidence?
Night Strike wrote:Furthermore, insurance already covers contraceptives used for actual medical issues. If a woman wishes to use contraceptives for family planning, then that is HER responsibility to pay for it, not every one else's.

And who decides what is an "actual medical issue"? According to you, not her doctor. Essentially, you are claiming, again, that you have better medical knowledge than her doctor.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:09 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:To put it more succintly .... women could legally vote and own property several decades prior to the 60's, but it was not until the LATE 60's and mid 70's that women even had the power to fight for a chance to take any but the most menial, "feminine" positions.


I'm really curious to know what non "feminine" positions you are thnking of here that were gained in the late 60's and mid 70's. When my mother (from Queens) married my father (from East Hampton) she was actually making more money than he was at the time. She gave it up, because that was what you did at the time, and in addition his job was in East Hampton so keeping the job in Manhatten was simply out of the question.

It was the WWII labor shortage that really broke the ice for women. While this was short lived because of the influx of male veterans after the war, the ice had already been broken. The biggest factor was the growing movement of women into engineering fields which would not occur until the 80's.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:32 am

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:To put it more succintly .... women could legally vote and own property several decades prior to the 60's, but it was not until the LATE 60's and mid 70's that women even had the power to fight for a chance to take any but the most menial, "feminine" positions.


I'm really curious to know what non "feminine" positions you are thnking of here that were gained in the late 60's and mid 70's. When my mother (from Queens) married my father (from East Hampton) she was actually making more money than he was at the time. She gave it up, because that was what you did at the time, and in addition his job was in East Hampton so keeping the job in Manhatten was simply out of the question.

and that proves, what, exactly?

Exceptions make the rule. I don't need to look to YOUR mother, since I lived that period. I can well remember the hoopla when Mary Tyler Moore actually wore PANTS (Capris) on TV, etc. Go back and look at old shows like "Bewitched", Brady Bunch.. in the first few years, and then compare them to later years. It tells you a lot about how society thought back then. Even the Partridge Family is almost repugnantly condescending by todays standards, yet at the time, it was seen as big progress in the image of women.

And.. well, I began college in 1981. It was not until I was in a conversation with another student that my advisor even realized I had scored something like 95% among college bound seniors on the SAT... and the reason it came up is because the other students were talking about this male student as a "known genius" and "after all, he scored [the same score I made]. My advisor had tried to dissuade me from taking science.

Again.. that was 1981!!!
I Also, in 1989, was part of a JUST post-consent decree crew hired for the US Forest Service. The lady who began one of the major lawsuits, from Region 6 in the Forest Service, is just a year or two older than I.

I can bring up plenty of recent examples. To deny my timeline means you have not really looked back at what was going on, you are simply making assumptions or listening to opinions of people who don't think it should have happened anyway.
tzor wrote:
It was the WWII labor shortage that really broke the ice for women. While this was short lived because of the influx of male veterans after the war, the ice had already been broken. The biggest factor was the growing movement of women into engineering fields which would not occur until the 80's.

Rosey the Riveter did a lot, as did Tupperware parties. However, little of that could happen as long as employers could just say "hey.. why hire her, she will only go off and have her kids....", not to mention the very real health limitations that came from having child after child.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:55 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:To put it more succintly .... women could legally vote and own property several decades prior to the 60's, but it was not until the LATE 60's and mid 70's that women even had the power to fight for a chance to take any but the most menial, "feminine" positions.


I'm really curious to know what non "feminine" positions you are thnking of here that were gained in the late 60's and mid 70's. When my mother (from Queens) married my father (from East Hampton) she was actually making more money than he was at the time. She gave it up, because that was what you did at the time, and in addition his job was in East Hampton so keeping the job in Manhatten was simply out of the question.

and that proves, what, exactly?

Exceptions make the rule. I don't need to look to YOUR mother, since I lived that period. I can well remember the hoopla when Mary Tyler Moore actually wore PANTS (Capris) on TV, etc. Go back and look at old shows like "Bewitched", Brady Bunch.. in the first few years, and then compare them to later years. It tells you a lot about how society thought back then. Even the Partridge Family is almost repugnantly condescending by todays standards, yet at the time, it was seen as big progress in the image of women.

And.. well, I began college in 1981. It was not until I was in a conversation with another student that my advisor even realized I had scored something like 95% among college bound seniors on the SAT... and the reason it came up is because the other students were talking about this male student as a "known genius" and "after all, he scored [the same score I made]. My advisor had tried to dissuade me from taking science.

Again.. that was 1981!!!
I Also, in 1989, was part of a JUST post-consent decree crew hired for the US Forest Service. The lady who began one of the major lawsuits, from Region 6 in the Forest Service, is just a year or two older than I.

I can bring up plenty of recent examples. To deny my timeline means you have not really looked back at what was going on, you are simply making assumptions or listening to opinions of people who don't think it should have happened anyway.
tzor wrote:
It was the WWII labor shortage that really broke the ice for women. While this was short lived because of the influx of male veterans after the war, the ice had already been broken. The biggest factor was the growing movement of women into engineering fields which would not occur until the 80's.

Rosey the Riveter did a lot, as did Tupperware parties. However, little of that could happen as long as employers could just say "hey.. why hire her, she will only go off and have her kids....", not to mention the very real health limitations that came from having child after child.


Player... It sounds like I'm 1 year older than you. I, too, was discouraged from math and sciences and told to take typing and secretarial. Fortunately, my excellent typing got me into an aerospace company and, while I never did get a 4 year degree, I was an engineering assistant in liquid rocket engines for a few years.

Theme for Mary Tyler Moore: You're gonna make it after all!

I looked into selling Tupperware. I rejected the company because females were required to wear skirts for any Tupperware function or demo. Really!

I have a big problem with a political party that wants to tell me what I should do with my body, but if I do it, then they don't want to help raise the result. Have the kid, then stop asking for help feeding, clothing, or housing it, because "we don't want to pay more taxes to cover all that."

As late as 12 years ago, some doctors wouldn't give a single woman a tubal ligation, nor would they give a married woman a tubal without husband's signed consent. Not sure what the situation is today. But I don't think they ever denied a single man, or required wife's permission if he was married.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:10 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:To put it more succintly .... women could legally vote and own property several decades prior to the 60's, but it was not until the LATE 60's and mid 70's that women even had the power to fight for a chance to take any but the most menial, "feminine" positions.


I'm really curious to know what non "feminine" positions you are thnking of here that were gained in the late 60's and mid 70's. When my mother (from Queens) married my father (from East Hampton) she was actually making more money than he was at the time. She gave it up, because that was what you did at the time, and in addition his job was in East Hampton so keeping the job in Manhatten was simply out of the question.

and that proves, what, exactly?

Exceptions make the rule. I don't need to look to YOUR mother, since I lived that period. I can well remember the hoopla when Mary Tyler Moore actually wore PANTS (Capris) on TV, etc. Go back and look at old shows like "Bewitched", Brady Bunch.. in the first few years, and then compare them to later years. It tells you a lot about how society thought back then. Even the Partridge Family is almost repugnantly condescending by todays standards, yet at the time, it was seen as big progress in the image of women.

And.. well, I began college in 1981. It was not until I was in a conversation with another student that my advisor even realized I had scored something like 95% among college bound seniors on the SAT... and the reason it came up is because the other students were talking about this male student as a "known genius" and "after all, he scored [the same score I made]. My advisor had tried to dissuade me from taking science.

Again.. that was 1981!!!
I Also, in 1989, was part of a JUST post-consent decree crew hired for the US Forest Service. The lady who began one of the major lawsuits, from Region 6 in the Forest Service, is just a year or two older than I.

I can bring up plenty of recent examples. To deny my timeline means you have not really looked back at what was going on, you are simply making assumptions or listening to opinions of people who don't think it should have happened anyway.
tzor wrote:
It was the WWII labor shortage that really broke the ice for women. While this was short lived because of the influx of male veterans after the war, the ice had already been broken. The biggest factor was the growing movement of women into engineering fields which would not occur until the 80's.

Rosey the Riveter did a lot, as did Tupperware parties. However, little of that could happen as long as employers could just say "hey.. why hire her, she will only go off and have her kids....", not to mention the very real health limitations that came from having child after child.


Player... It sounds like I'm 1 year older than you. I, too, was discouraged from math and sciences and told to take typing and secretarial. Fortunately, my excellent typing got me into an aerospace company and, while I never did get a 4 year degree, I was an engineering assistant in liquid rocket engines for a few years.

I was not so lucky or wise. I did get a 4 year degree, but in biology. Yet... you very much do prove my point to Tzor.

stahrgazer wrote:Theme for Mary Tyler Moore: You're gonna make it after all!

Liked that show... but it was some years after she was Dick Van Dyke's wife, wearing Capris!
stahrgazer wrote:I looked into selling Tupperware. I rejected the company because females were required to wear skirts for any Tupperware function or demo. Really!

Ny explanation there was a tad esoteric/tangential. I read a short essay on how women would sit in their suburban homes, fairly isolated. Then they got invited to Tupperware parties. They would talk, the kids would play... and they would see the Tupperware. Some decided "hye", this is fun.. let's do it without the Tupperware... (waaay before "playgroups" became fashionable). And,t hen they got talking about other issues, and the idea of maybe doing other types of work entered their minds.... Anyway, if I ever find that article again, I might post it. It was fun, short .. and made some interesting points.
stahrgazer wrote:I have a big problem with a political party that wants to tell me what I should do with my body, but if I do it, then they don't want to help raise the result. Have the kid, then stop asking for help feeding, clothing, or housing it, because "we don't want to pay more taxes to cover all that."

As late as 12 years ago, some doctors wouldn't give a single woman a tubal ligation, nor would they give a married woman a tubal without husband's signed consent. Not sure what the situation is today. But I don't think they ever denied a single man, or required wife's permission if he was married.

Yep. Loretta Lynn even wrote a country song about the pill once. She did not mince words, and to hear her tell it... a lot of men were wanting to shoot her (quite literally!), but the women rose up and cheered, so the song spread.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:I can well remember the hoopla when Mary Tyler Moore actually wore PANTS (Capris) on TV, etc. Go back and look at old shows like "Bewitched", Brady Bunch.. in the first few years, and then compare them to later years. It tells you a lot about how society thought back then. Even the Partridge Family is almost repugnantly condescending by todays standards, yet at the time, it was seen as big progress in the image of women.


That is a good fact, but it doesn't point where you think it should. During this period in history, television was drowning in regulations as to what could and what could be televised; what could and could not be discussed and so forth. All of these regulations were put in place by progressive liberal administrations. “The Shadow of Incipient Censorship”: The Creation of the Television Code of 1952

Activities leading to the adoption of a code for television were begun simultaneously with the licensing of stations. The experience of many years of operation in radio broadcasting pointed to the desirability of early agreement upon standards of programs. The NARTB Television Code became effective March 1, 1952. Subscribers are entitled to display a seal of good practice signifying compliance with code standards.


So we come to an interesting question: What was the real role of "Star Trek" in Television and self censorship? "Star Trek" literally made "All in the Family" possible. Before Star Trek, some subjects, including race relations, were literally forbidden from broadcast. But if you have two aliens, one black on the left and white on the right, and one black on the right and white on the left, you could get away with an epsiode on the subject. This allowed to have a comedey where Archie argued with "Meat Head."

Anyway, to get back on subject, this generally proves that using the TV media to see what the society as a whole was like in the 1950's and 1960's is not a good idea.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:18 pm

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I can well remember the hoopla when Mary Tyler Moore actually wore PANTS (Capris) on TV, etc. Go back and look at old shows like "Bewitched", Brady Bunch.. in the first few years, and then compare them to later years. It tells you a lot about how society thought back then. Even the Partridge Family is almost repugnantly condescending by todays standards, yet at the time, it was seen as big progress in the image of women.


That is a good fact, but it doesn't point where you think it should. During this period in history, television was drowning in regulations as to what could and what could be televised; what could and could not be discussed and so forth. All of these regulations were put in place by progressive liberal administrations. “The Shadow of Incipient Censorship”: The Creation of the Television Code of 1952


So you believe it was liberals who were keeping women back, as far as what was shown on television? Really?

tzor wrote:So we come to an interesting question: What was the real role of "Star Trek" in Television and self censorship? "Star Trek" literally made "All in the Family" possible. Before Star Trek, some subjects, including race relations, were literally forbidden from broadcast. But if you have two aliens, one black on the left and white on the right, and one black on the right and white on the left, you could get away with an epsiode on the subject. This allowed to have a comedey where Archie argued with "Meat Head."


I agree with you as far as Star Trek opening the way for a show like All In The Family. And I think that's a wonderful thing (All In The Family was a genius show).

tzor wrote:Anyway, to get back on subject, this generally proves that using the TV media to see what the society as a whole was like in the 1950's and 1960's is not a good idea.


I would absolutely disagree with this.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:40 pm

Woodruff wrote:So you believe it was liberals who were keeping women back, as far as what was shown on television? Really?


No, I was saying that what you saw on TV at that time was not reflective of the society of that time. You cannot use those shows as to the condition of the average woman of that era.

I mean one would get the impression that there was no opposition to the war in the 1960's. :twisted:

Women in the Workplace By: Yenisse Alonso and Vickie Brint

In 1950, only one in every three women entered the workforce; by the 1960s, social and economic forces made higher education more available to women, thus increasing their job opportunities. As a result, more women married later and postponed having children. In 1998, the number of women entering the workforce had climbed to three out of every five women. And in 2006, women comprised 46 percent of the paid workforce. The influx of women has been "one of the most important forces shaping the economy over the past 30 years, influencing economic factors such as average family income, productivity, and consumer behavior," according to Workplace Visions: Exploring the Future of Work, a report by the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM).


The 1960s: A Decade of Change for Women

"The Sixties were an edgy time of transition, change, and confusion, " observed journalist Kati Marton in Hidden Power: Presidential Marriages That Shaped Our Recent History. "In 1963 Betty Friedan published her book The Feminine Mystique, in which she claimed that 'the problem that has no name burst like a boil through the image of the happy American housewife.' The same year, an American woman, the physicist Maria Goepper-Mayer, won a Nobel Prize for the first time. The civil rights and antiwar movements politicized and radicalized a growing number of women bombarded with contradictory expectations and images about work and family. While Lesley Gore's hit song 'You Don't Own Me' climbed the charts, Leave It to Beaver and Father Knows Best dominated television. One in 5 women with children under 6 and nearly one fourth of women whose children were over 16 held paid jobs in the Sixties.


Women's Rights Movement in the U.S. Timeline of Key Events in the American Women's Rights Movement 1921–1979
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:41 pm

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:So you believe it was liberals who were keeping women back, as far as what was shown on television? Really?


No, I was saying that what you saw on TV at that time was not reflective of the society of that time. You cannot use those shows as to the condition of the average woman of that era.

I mean one would get the impression that there was no opposition to the war in the 1960's. :twisted:


I disagree. I think it was reasonably representative, if even ahead of it's time (television tended to show social issues that were still controversial). Star Trek was VERY anti-war, as a show, for instance.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:28 pm

I am sad to say that I arrived late onto this discussion but I've taken the time to read this entire thread in one sitting. It has been a good ride. That being said, I still think I have something to contribute.
I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it. While some would like to throw this baby out with the bathwater (pun intended) for the sake of argument, I think there are some real similarities in the comparison.
Take the Holocaust for instance. A group of people were considered less than human and were therefore exterminated by those who regarded them as undeserving to live/not fitting into their "future plan". This was a power play of extreme proportions but not altogether unlike the jury of an unborn child whose parent(s) wish for it to be aborted. The baby is not part of their "future plan" as it were and is therefore disposed of.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:58 am

tzor wrote: Anyway, to get back on subject, this generally proves that using the TV media to see what the society as a whole was like in the 1950's and 1960's is not a good idea.

Actually, it proves you haven't a clue of the subject.

AND, your entire post has very little to do with what I wrote. In fact, you have not considered much of anything I have said in the past several posts.. you just pick out a tangent and pretend to be debating.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:03 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I am sad to say that I arrived late onto this discussion but I've taken the time to read this entire thread in one sitting. It has been a good ride. That being said, I still think I have something to contribute.
I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it. While some would like to throw this baby out with the bathwater (pun intended) for the sake of argument, I think there are some real similarities in the comparison.
Take the Holocaust for instance. A group of people were considered less than human and were therefore exterminated by those who regarded them as undeserving to live/not fitting into their "future plan". This was a power play of extreme proportions but not altogether unlike the jury of an unborn child whose parent(s) wish for it to be aborted. The baby is not part of their "future plan" as it were and is therefore disposed of.

Except, it was not women, many of whom actually want to have children.. either then (just not with that person, or with the particular issues invovled) or in the future... who were making the decision.

Context matters. Abortion is about many things, but eliminating a group of people because they are "inferior" is not one of them . These are potential humans, not yet humans.. and that is biologically/medically/scientifically based. Also, the Bible does not credit life from conception, despite what many conservatives wish to claim. It credits birth as giving life. The other ideas came, not from the Bible, but science... the same exact science many of these same folks decry (not John specifically in that, though) when they choose (evolution, environmental destruction, etc.)
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:46 am

Woodruff wrote:Star Trek was VERY anti-war, as a show, for instance.


If Star Trek wasn't about aliens it would not have been allowed most of its espiodes.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:14 am

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Star Trek was VERY anti-war, as a show, for instance.


If Star Trek wasn't about aliens it would not have been allowed most of its espiodes.


Of course that's true. That doesn't change my point.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:15 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it.


Words have meaning. Using them improperly simply to get an emotional reaction is a dishonest argument.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:23 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it.


Words have meaning. Using them improperly simply to get an emotional reaction is a dishonest argument.


True, but if you publicly discount a person's overall reasoning due to a technicality it tends to look like avoidance of the issue at heart.
John directed the conversation in a real thought provoking direction and I thought it was underhanded to, instead of provide a legitimate counter to his legitimate point, attack him for his misuse of a word instead.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:35 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it.


Words have meaning. Using them improperly simply to get an emotional reaction is a dishonest argument.


True, but if you publicly discount a person's overall reasoning due to a technicality it tends to look like avoidance of the issue at heart.
John directed the conversation in a real thought provoking direction and I thought it was underhanded to, instead of provide a legitimate counter to his legitimate point, attack him for his misuse of a word instead.


Communication can only happen if we agree on what the words in that communication mean.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:02 pm

so, woody, instead of using the word "genocide", i could have used the more pleasant-sounding (?) alternative, "mass homicide".

if fetuses are human, then abortion is unquestionably mass homicide. there should be no debate about this.

so tell me, what makes "genocide" worse than "mass homicide"? if i had substituted "mass homicide" for "genocide", which part of my argument would have been changed?

props to funkyterrance for once again calling out the intellectual dishonesty and cowardice of those who disagree with me.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm

btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:56 pm

john9blue wrote:btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.


Says the guy ignorant of what a fetus is and wants to call abortion murder without considering the ramifications of the charge.

And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.

I'm sorry if this again troubles your bumper sticker rhetoric, but if you're opposed to abortion in that case, then you're either ignorant or stupid. If you're ok with that kind of abortion, then you don't oppose abortion.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:00 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Not exactly.
Is Sperm Human?
When does a cluster of empty cells become a person? When can it theoretically even feel pain?
Is aborting a chimpanzee baby murder because their infant's biology is nearly identical to ours?
Is killing a Chimpanzee Murder?
Will outlawing Abortion do anything to curb abortion?


Is killing a cell cluster with a mutation Murder?



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No one in this thread ever even tried to define where the red line of abortion is. This is copy-post 3.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.


Says the guy ignorant of what a fetus is and wants to call abortion murder without considering the ramifications of the charge.

And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.

I'm sorry if this again troubles your bumper sticker rhetoric, but if you're opposed to abortion in that case, then you're either ignorant or stupid. If you're ok with that kind of abortion, then you don't oppose abortion.


Killing other people is wrong, yet when it comes to self-defense, it's considered justified. There's nothing different between self-defense and an abortion that is for saving the mother's life. That does not mean a person supports abortion any more than supporting self-defense means a person supports going around killing others.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.


you're right, there isn't. which is why i consider pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother to be the only ones where abortion can be justified.

oh and... sorry about my "misuse" of the queen's english. don't get your panties in a bunch [edit].
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:14 pm

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.


you're right, there isn't. which is why i consider pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother to be the only ones where abortion can be justified.

oh and... sorry about my "misuse" of the queen's english. don't get your panties in a bunch, britfag.


Charming, how could anyone think you might be hateful of anyone, let alone women.

So anyway- we've established that you don't oppose abortion. You oppose it sometimes, like most people who support abortion.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:27 pm

We've been through this before, and I don't think it was address

The burden of proof is on those seeking restrictions to prove that the thing is a human being deserving of the right to life. On top of it, those seeking restrictions on abortions must address the relation between this position and others on other issues which come about by viewing humans as individuals not dependent on a parasitic relationship to continue its "life."

An aside: it's funny how religious thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in a later life) and capitalist thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in this life) are fused into a single ideology, generic conservatism. Perhaps the capitalists do this using the overtly religious as pawns in their bid for power. I'd like to see whether the richest men in the nation are more or less religious than the national average.
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