Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:23 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it.


Words have meaning. Using them improperly simply to get an emotional reaction is a dishonest argument.


True, but if you publicly discount a person's overall reasoning due to a technicality it tends to look like avoidance of the issue at heart.
John directed the conversation in a real thought provoking direction and I thought it was underhanded to, instead of provide a legitimate counter to his legitimate point, attack him for his misuse of a word instead.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:35 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I would like to return to John's reference to abortion as genocide. While this may be a technically incorrect statement, I think that we all understood what he meant by it.


Words have meaning. Using them improperly simply to get an emotional reaction is a dishonest argument.


True, but if you publicly discount a person's overall reasoning due to a technicality it tends to look like avoidance of the issue at heart.
John directed the conversation in a real thought provoking direction and I thought it was underhanded to, instead of provide a legitimate counter to his legitimate point, attack him for his misuse of a word instead.


Communication can only happen if we agree on what the words in that communication mean.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:02 pm

so, woody, instead of using the word "genocide", i could have used the more pleasant-sounding (?) alternative, "mass homicide".

if fetuses are human, then abortion is unquestionably mass homicide. there should be no debate about this.

so tell me, what makes "genocide" worse than "mass homicide"? if i had substituted "mass homicide" for "genocide", which part of my argument would have been changed?

props to funkyterrance for once again calling out the intellectual dishonesty and cowardice of those who disagree with me.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm

btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:56 pm

john9blue wrote:btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.


Says the guy ignorant of what a fetus is and wants to call abortion murder without considering the ramifications of the charge.

And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.

I'm sorry if this again troubles your bumper sticker rhetoric, but if you're opposed to abortion in that case, then you're either ignorant or stupid. If you're ok with that kind of abortion, then you don't oppose abortion.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:00 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Not exactly.
Is Sperm Human?
When does a cluster of empty cells become a person? When can it theoretically even feel pain?
Is aborting a chimpanzee baby murder because their infant's biology is nearly identical to ours?
Is killing a Chimpanzee Murder?
Will outlawing Abortion do anything to curb abortion?


Is killing a cell cluster with a mutation Murder?



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No one in this thread ever even tried to define where the red line of abortion is. This is copy-post 3.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:btw, with regards to those who think those who oppose abortion are "anti-woman":

if you believed that a fetus was human, wouldn't YOU be against killing fetuses, even in cases of rape, despite the fact that you are totally pro-woman and love gender equality?

quit pretending that our position is based on our so-called "misogyny". that's a fucking cop-out. the debate is and always has been about whether a fetus is human and whether killing it is an act of murder... it has NEVER been about trying to find clever ways to punish women because we just hate them so very much :roll:

i suppose i should have expected it from the same people who call anyone who dislikes obama a "racist".

how the hell can you take yourselves seriously... i sometimes wonder how many of you are trolling, as opposed to simply being ignorant or stupid.


Says the guy ignorant of what a fetus is and wants to call abortion murder without considering the ramifications of the charge.

And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.

I'm sorry if this again troubles your bumper sticker rhetoric, but if you're opposed to abortion in that case, then you're either ignorant or stupid. If you're ok with that kind of abortion, then you don't oppose abortion.


Killing other people is wrong, yet when it comes to self-defense, it's considered justified. There's nothing different between self-defense and an abortion that is for saving the mother's life. That does not mean a person supports abortion any more than supporting self-defense means a person supports going around killing others.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Symmetry wrote:And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.


you're right, there isn't. which is why i consider pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother to be the only ones where abortion can be justified.

oh and... sorry about my "misuse" of the queen's english. don't get your panties in a bunch [edit].
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:14 pm

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:And yes, those who oppose abortion are anti-women. There's simply no justification for, to take an extreme stance, opposing the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy. There will be no child born, and it's highly dangerous for the woman.


you're right, there isn't. which is why i consider pregnancies that threaten the life of the mother to be the only ones where abortion can be justified.

oh and... sorry about my "misuse" of the queen's english. don't get your panties in a bunch, britfag.


Charming, how could anyone think you might be hateful of anyone, let alone women.

So anyway- we've established that you don't oppose abortion. You oppose it sometimes, like most people who support abortion.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:27 pm

We've been through this before, and I don't think it was address

The burden of proof is on those seeking restrictions to prove that the thing is a human being deserving of the right to life. On top of it, those seeking restrictions on abortions must address the relation between this position and others on other issues which come about by viewing humans as individuals not dependent on a parasitic relationship to continue its "life."

An aside: it's funny how religious thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in a later life) and capitalist thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in this life) are fused into a single ideology, generic conservatism. Perhaps the capitalists do this using the overtly religious as pawns in their bid for power. I'd like to see whether the richest men in the nation are more or less religious than the national average.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Symmetry wrote:Charming, how could anyone think you might be hateful of anyone, let alone women.

So anyway- we've established that you don't oppose abortion. You oppose it sometimes, like most people who support abortion.


of course. my approach is not idealistic. it's not black and white. the world isn't black and white.

it's simply about choosing which course of action has the most desirable effects. we have rules of thumb to help us out with this, rules like "don't kill another human". if an abortion would cause one death instead of two, then the choice should be obvious.

GreecePwns wrote:We've been through this before, and I don't think it was address

The burden of proof is on those seeking restrictions to prove that the thing is a human being deserving of the right to life. On top of it, those seeking restrictions on abortions must address the relation between this position and others on other issues which come about by viewing humans as individuals not dependent on a parasitic relationship to continue its "life."

Ahh, when you fuse religious thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in a later life) and capitalist thought (which seeks to reward people for their behavior in this life), you get plenty of contradictions, don't you?


my opposition to abortion isn't based on religious grounds.

also, what kind of "other issues" are you talking about?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Any issue that regards humans as individual beings, really.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:37 pm

GreecePwns wrote:The burden of proof is on those seeking restrictions to prove that the thing is a human being deserving of the right to life. On top of it, those seeking restrictions on abortions must address the relation between this position and others on other issues which come about by viewing humans as individuals not dependent on a parasitic relationship to continue its "life."


Kind of like how Jews had to prove that they weren't the actual cause of Germany's problems pre-WWII?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:41 pm

john9blue wrote:
john9blue wrote:don't get your panties in a bunch, britfag.

Symmetry wrote:Charming, how could anyone think you might be hateful of anyone, let alone women.

So anyway- we've established that you don't oppose abortion. You oppose it sometimes, like most people who support abortion.


of course. my approach is not idealistic. it's not black and white. the world isn't black and white.


So where do you place the "britfags"? Is that black or whte? It sort of sounded like there was some venom in the that comment.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:42 pm

Yep, just like that Night Strike. Exactly like that.

Except the Jews were not telling everyone else how to live and restricting their behavior, the Nazis were telling the Jews how to live (or die) and restricting their behavior.

And that this isn't the Holocaust and your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote and is really ridiculous.
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