Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:26 pm

Woodruff wrote:Your question makes no sense. The Constitution authorizes...if something is not authorized by the Constitution, then that is precisely how it violates the Constitution. You yourself have used this very statement in these fora. So....where in the Constitution is foreign aid authorized?


By the federal government being the one who enters into treaties and relations with other nations. I already said that.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:28 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Your question makes no sense. The Constitution authorizes...if something is not authorized by the Constitution, then that is precisely how it violates the Constitution. You yourself have used this very statement in these fora. So....where in the Constitution is foreign aid authorized?


By the federal government being the one who enters into treaties and relations with other nations. I already said that.


So then you agree that ObamaCare is a valid use of the General Welfare Clause. Glad to hear it.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:30 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Your question makes no sense. The Constitution authorizes...if something is not authorized by the Constitution, then that is precisely how it violates the Constitution. You yourself have used this very statement in these fora. So....where in the Constitution is foreign aid authorized?


By the federal government being the one who enters into treaties and relations with other nations. I already said that.


So then you agree that ObamaCare is a valid use of the General Welfare Clause. Glad to hear it.


Nope, because the Constitution is not designed to provide for specific welfare payments to individuals. Furthermore, the government telling you to purchase a product simply because you are alive is unconstitutional.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Your question makes no sense. The Constitution authorizes...if something is not authorized by the Constitution, then that is precisely how it violates the Constitution. You yourself have used this very statement in these fora. So....where in the Constitution is foreign aid authorized?


By the federal government being the one who enters into treaties and relations with other nations. I already said that.


So then you agree that ObamaCare is a valid use of the General Welfare Clause. Glad to hear it.


Nope, because the Constitution is not designed to provide for specific welfare payments to individuals.


Where in the Constitution does it state that?

Night Strike wrote:Furthermore, the government telling you to purchase a product simply because you are alive is unconstitutional.


Not according to the Supreme Court. You don't consider them the arbiters of what is Constitutional?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:36 pm

Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Bones2484 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:39 pm

Night Strike wrote:change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.


It's almost like that was the point of the document or something. Strange.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:42 pm

Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.


It's always the LIBERAL judges who do that, isn't it?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:46 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.


It's almost like that was the point of the document or something. Strange.


Where in the Constitution does it say that elected (or non-elected) people can change it based on how they feel that day? If you want to change the Constitution, you follow the specified amendment process.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:50 pm

Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


Corporations are groups of people and since we have the freedom of association, those groups also have the freedom of speech. You cannot keep people from speaking simply because they are part of a group. The government does not have the authority to decide which groups are allowed to speak and which ones aren't.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:09 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


Corporations are groups of people and since we have the freedom of association, those groups also have the freedom of speech. You cannot keep people from speaking simply because they are part of a group. The government does not have the authority to decide which groups are allowed to speak and which ones aren't.


That you persist in patently ignoring that giving a group rights equal to any other individual effectively gives that group MORE power, becuase, among other reasons they still hold their individual rights to speech, etc. pretty much shows how little you have actually thought this out.

In what universe does saying a corporation is not an individual and therefore doesn't have individual rights of speech mean that each individual within that corporation has no right to free speech :roll: .

Your "reasoning" had nothing to do with the Supreme Court ruling, anyway.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:11 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.


and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


Because he likes that part. That's different.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:18 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


Corporations are groups of people and since we have the freedom of association, those groups also have the freedom of speech. You cannot keep people from speaking simply because they are part of a group. The government does not have the authority to decide which groups are allowed to speak and which ones aren't.


That you persist in patently ignoring that giving a group rights equal to any other individual effectively gives that group MORE power, becuase, among other reasons they still hold their individual rights to speech, etc. pretty much shows how little you have actually thought this out.

In what universe does saying a corporation is not an individual and therefore doesn't have individual rights of speech mean that each individual within that corporation has no right to free speech :roll: .

Your "reasoning" had nothing to do with the Supreme Court ruling, anyway.


So people shouldn't be allowed to come together to promote a political position or candidate they all support individually?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


Corporations are groups of people and since we have the freedom of association, those groups also have the freedom of speech. You cannot keep people from speaking simply because they are part of a group. The government does not have the authority to decide which groups are allowed to speak and which ones aren't.


That you persist in patently ignoring that giving a group rights equal to any other individual effectively gives that group MORE power, becuase, among other reasons they still hold their individual rights to speech, etc. pretty much shows how little you have actually thought this out.

In what universe does saying a corporation is not an individual and therefore doesn't have individual rights of speech mean that each individual within that corporation has no right to free speech :roll: .

Your "reasoning" had nothing to do with the Supreme Court ruling, anyway.


So people shouldn't be allowed to come together to promote a political position or candidate they all support individually?

No one has questioned that. The point is whether forming as a group should give them the right to ALSO have the group be considered as an individual, with the full rights of individuals.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby john9blue on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Oh please, quit the histrionics. Akin has his fair share of defenders, even on this site.

Taking up arms against his critics ain't exactly a good way to indicate that you don't believe in his nonsense.


by "defenders" do you mean people who agree with his rape comments? cuz i haven't seen anyone defend those.

all i see is republicans saying "wtf we don't believe that" and democrats saying "YES YOU DO, you're all equally stupid"


Why do you think Sym chose to insert some Akin commentary in this thread?

What could his motives be?


i call it the "palin reflex"

it's a strange pattern of behavior where the subject, when confronted with an ideology they dislike but cannot refute, chooses instead to cite a stupid person who believes in said ideology, in an attempt to discredit the ideology as a whole. usually the stupid person is hyped by the media as a representative of the ideology, in order to foster this delusion.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:42 am

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Oh please, quit the histrionics. Akin has his fair share of defenders, even on this site.

Taking up arms against his critics ain't exactly a good way to indicate that you don't believe in his nonsense.


by "defenders" do you mean people who agree with his rape comments? cuz i haven't seen anyone defend those.

all i see is republicans saying "wtf we don't believe that" and democrats saying "YES YOU DO, you're all equally stupid"


Why do you think Sym chose to insert some Akin commentary in this thread?

What could his motives be?


i call it the "palin reflex"

it's a strange pattern of behavior where the subject, when confronted with an ideology they dislike but cannot refute, chooses instead to cite a stupid person who believes in said ideology, in an attempt to discredit the ideology as a whole. usually the stupid person is hyped by the media as a representative of the ideology, in order to foster this delusion.


I guess it's best to assume that Sym is being well-intended here (i.e. not trolling). Yet, this strategy is narrow-minded. Do you think Symmetry would stoop to such a level, or is he simply incapable of removing himself from his hole?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:10 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


I know this is getting off topic but I'm generally on the fence on this one.

On the one hand there is a significant difference between "rewriting a law" and a "bad declaration." The later is a general power of the Courts, not technically prohibited by the Constitution. The former is a power that belongs to the legislature. That's a major separation of powers violation.

As for the notion that "corporations were people" the qualifier was that it is only in specific cases. The courts didn't say that corporations have the right to vote, or to throw out the corporate taxing system because they should pay taxes like any other "person." It is limited to free speech. The First amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It doesn't mention that the right is limited to "people" or "citizens." One can disagree with the decision, but it's not an extreeme example of writing legislation from whole cloth.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:57 am

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Your question makes no sense. The Constitution authorizes...if something is not authorized by the Constitution, then that is precisely how it violates the Constitution. You yourself have used this very statement in these fora. So....where in the Constitution is foreign aid authorized?


By the federal government being the one who enters into treaties and relations with other nations. I already said that.


So then you agree that ObamaCare is a valid use of the General Welfare Clause. Glad to hear it.


Nope, because the Constitution is not designed to provide for specific welfare payments to individuals.


Where in the Constitution does it state that?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:42 pm

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Actually, the Supreme Court did say that you can't force a person to participate in the marketplace. However, they then unconstitutionally rewrote the law to claim it was a tax and to say that taxing powers are allowed. And the Supreme Court has been known to take unconstitutional actions in the past in addition to this one, so it's not a huge surprise. That's what happens when you have a minimum of 4 judges who will always believe that they can change the Constitution based on their personal whims instead of the intent of the document.

and yet, you saw no problem with them just declaring that corporations were people....


I know this is getting off topic but I'm generally on the fence on this one.

On the one hand there is a significant difference between "rewriting a law" and a "bad declaration." The later is a general power of the Courts, not technically prohibited by the Constitution. The former is a power that belongs to the legislature. That's a major separation of powers violation.

As for the notion that "corporations were people" the qualifier was that it is only in specific cases. The courts didn't say that corporations have the right to vote, or to throw out the corporate taxing system because they should pay taxes like any other "person." It is limited to free speech. The First amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It doesn't mention that the right is limited to "people" or "citizens." One can disagree with the decision, but it's not an extreeme example of writing legislation from whole cloth.

stepping stones, stepping stones... but yes, it is off topic.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:42 pm

Woodruff wrote:Where in the Constitution does it state that?


The purpose of a constitution is not to tell the government what it cannot do, but what it can do. So if it is not an enumerated power the Federal Government doesn't have the power under the Constitution and under the Constitution the power goes to the states or to the people.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:54 pm

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Where in the Constitution does it state that?


The purpose of a constitution is not to tell the government what it cannot do, but what it can do. So if it is not an enumerated power the Federal Government doesn't have the power under the Constitution and under the Constitution the power goes to the states or to the people.

And yet, so many people seem to think "provide for the general welfare" means just that..

At any rate, most welfare actually is state-run. However, because a lot of that whole arena has been tied into discrimination, intentional disenfranchisement of large groups of people, the federal government is involved. There are other reasons for direct federal involvement, but mostly it comes down to Congress voted and the Supreme Court affirmed.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:06 pm

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Where in the Constitution does it state that?


The purpose of a constitution is not to tell the government what it cannot do, but what it can do. So if it is not an enumerated power the Federal Government doesn't have the power under the Constitution and under the Constitution the power goes to the states or to the people.


Thus, the General Welfare clause.
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Night Strike on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:08 pm

Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Where in the Constitution does it state that?


The purpose of a constitution is not to tell the government what it cannot do, but what it can do. So if it is not an enumerated power the Federal Government doesn't have the power under the Constitution and under the Constitution the power goes to the states or to the people.


Thus, the General Welfare clause.


So the federal government has unlimited power?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:10 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Where in the Constitution does it state that?


The purpose of a constitution is not to tell the government what it cannot do, but what it can do. So if it is not an enumerated power the Federal Government doesn't have the power under the Constitution and under the Constitution the power goes to the states or to the people.


Thus, the General Welfare clause.


So the federal government has unlimited power?


I suppose that depends on your perspective, but I would certainly disagree with that statement. Is that what you believe the General Welfare clause means?
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Re: Legitimate Rape and Abortion- Republicans back-pedal

Postby puppydog85 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:18 pm

Well, one thing is certain. It does not mean "special welfare".
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