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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So?
"Raises taxes" does not make something bad.


It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.


This is not in any way a valid argument. Taxes do not keep businesses from expanding or hiring. Period.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby john9blue on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:02 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So?
"Raises taxes" does not make something bad.


It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.


This is not in any way a valid argument. Taxes do not keep businesses from expanding or hiring. Period.


a 100% tax rate would definitely do so. it would stop them completely. why can't a lower tax rate stop them partially?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:20 pm

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So?
"Raises taxes" does not make something bad.


It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.


This is not in any way a valid argument. Taxes do not keep businesses from expanding or hiring. Period.


a 100% tax rate would definitely do so. it would stop them completely. why can't a lower tax rate stop them partially?


So you found an absurd argument that sort of makes your point. Well done!

The reason that tax rates wouldn't affect expansion or hiring is because taxes are simply passed on to the consumer. They don't affect production. Businesses expand or hire because they have a need for expansion or hiring (greater production).
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:52 pm

Although businesses do pass on most of their costs to customers, the marketplace can only take so much of an increase in price. If the government doubled the tax rate on a business, there's no way they can overnight double the cost of their goods and services. Their customers would walk away. Furthermore, when the government is playing political games over the taxes and regulations, there is no certainty in the businesses environment so the business will just keep with the status quo as long as possible. And when you have governmental mandates that will skyrocket your cost of doing business once you reach a certain number of employees, the business will make sure they stay under that number to avoid those massive costs because it's doubtful they will have an increase in output that would equal the massive jump in costs.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby john9blue on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:58 pm

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So?
"Raises taxes" does not make something bad.


It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.


This is not in any way a valid argument. Taxes do not keep businesses from expanding or hiring. Period.


a 100% tax rate would definitely do so. it would stop them completely. why can't a lower tax rate stop them partially?


So you found an absurd argument that sort of makes your point. Well done!

The reason that tax rates wouldn't affect expansion or hiring is because taxes are simply passed on to the consumer. They don't affect production. Businesses expand or hire because they have a need for expansion or hiring (greater production).


wow. "absurd argument" = "argument that disproves woody's point"... lol

okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.

edit: nightstrike beat me :(
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:Although businesses do pass on most of their costs to customers, the marketplace can only take so much of an increase in price. If the government doubled the tax rate on a business, there's no way they can overnight double the cost of their goods and services. Their customers would walk away.


Again, this is irrelevant to tax hikes "preventing job growth".
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:39 pm

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So?
"Raises taxes" does not make something bad.


It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.


This is not in any way a valid argument. Taxes do not keep businesses from expanding or hiring. Period.


a 100% tax rate would definitely do so. it would stop them completely. why can't a lower tax rate stop them partially?


So you found an absurd argument that sort of makes your point. Well done!

The reason that tax rates wouldn't affect expansion or hiring is because taxes are simply passed on to the consumer. They don't affect production. Businesses expand or hire because they have a need for expansion or hiring (greater production).


wow. "absurd argument" = "argument that disproves woody's point"... lol


You do realize that there's an actual term for the sort of argument you made, and it's not a complimentary one.

john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.

john9blue wrote:edit: nightstrike beat me :(


Somebody should.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby john9blue on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:53 pm

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.


do you understand what "lay people off" means?

it's a euphemism for firing people.

that is, terminating their employment.

ending their job.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Yeah, Woodruff, you're not winning this one. Not all taxes are passed onto consumers, and that taken to an extreme does lead to layoffs. How many layoffs per X increase in taxes is a very, very unpredictable thing to measure due to the many factors in play, but on an abstract, theoretical level john is correct.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:32 pm

Obama actually lowered taxes on businesses and then increased federal funding for small businesses. If they need a loan to expand their business or comply with some wacky state regulation, they can now receive more money. This was all over the media after the RNC, because a couple of the RNC's small business speakers had actually received some of those business-saving loans under Obama's plan.

Night Strike wrote:It is when those businesses would have instead been spending that money on expanding and hiring.

Unfortunately most of those manufacturing businesses used the Obama tax cuts to replace labor with with more productive means of producing cheap goods. The big jump in the stock market was caused by a combination of laying-off workers, moving production to other countrys, and replacing workers with more cost effective means like automated assembly lines and robots. I don't know if the dems saw this coming or not.

john9blue wrote:A $1 raise would be a $1 raise if the government would quit monetizing the debt (which Bernanke swore before Congress he would never do). Stop all this government overspending and you won't have the massive inflation we've been seeing.

While I'm aware that inflation is a government problem, I'm also aware that fair pay is a business problem. If productivity rises while pay decreases, it's not fair to blame that on the government.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:49 pm

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.


do you understand what "lay people off" means?
it's a euphemism for firing people.
that is, terminating their employment.
ending their job.


I'm sorry you're having trouble following the discussion. The argument is whether tax rates stop company growth. They do not. Nor do people get fired because of tax rates. (Unless of course you want to stick with your argumentum ad absurdum position, of course.)
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:50 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Yeah, Woodruff, you're not winning this one. Not all taxes are passed onto consumers, and that taken to an extreme does lead to layoffs. How many layoffs per X increase in taxes is a very, very unpredictable thing to measure due to the many factors in play, but on an abstract, theoretical level john is correct.


Taken to an extreme, sure...as I said, his argument to absurdity of a 100% tax rate.

For the most part, however, taxes are passed on to the consumer and do not result in a restriction of business growth nor an increase of layoffs (other than what would have happened anyway for other reasons).

A intelligent business model increases production (growth) due to an increase in customer purchases. Period. Might tax rates (passed on to customers) affect the increase in customers...well, in an extreme case, sure. But not in a normal case, no. Sales are still to be had.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:54 pm

Woodruff, you don't work in the private sector, so how would you know about the effects of taxes and regulations on private businesses?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:57 pm

Night Strike wrote:Woodruff, you don't work in the private sector, so how would you know about the effects of taxes and regulations on private businesses?


By that logic, you have no understanding of America going to war, Night Strike. Does that actually make sense to you?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby john9blue on Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:09 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Yeah, Woodruff, you're not winning this one. Not all taxes are passed onto consumers, and that taken to an extreme does lead to layoffs. How many layoffs per X increase in taxes is a very, very unpredictable thing to measure due to the many factors in play, but on an abstract, theoretical level john is correct.


woodruff's not interested in winning. he's just interested in not losing.

he also has a strong desire for me to be wrong, even when i'm not. he does the same to scotty and a few others. that's why he gets himself into these impossibly stupid conversations.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:39 am

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.


do you understand what "lay people off" means?
it's a euphemism for firing people.
that is, terminating their employment.
ending their job.


I'm sorry you're having trouble following the discussion. The argument is whether tax rates stop company growth. They do not. Nor do people get fired because of tax rates. (Unless of course you want to stick with your argumentum ad absurdum position, of course.)


You're being absurd ITT.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby chang50 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:58 am

Night Strike wrote:Woodruff, you don't work in the private sector, so how would you know about the effects of taxes and regulations on private businesses?


Really that is just about the dumbest position,in a strong field,I have encountered on cc..At a stroke you have invalidated over 90% of the posts here if you actually believe what you just posted..How often do you have direct involvement in a topic prior to you posting?Should only atheists post on threads about atheism?You've excelled yourself with this one =D>
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby john9blue on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:39 am

chang50 wrote:
Really that is just about the dumbest position,in a strong field,I have encountered on cc..At a stroke you have invalidated over 90% of the posts here if you actually believe what you just posted..How often do you have direct involvement in a topic prior to you posting?Should only atheists post on threads about atheism?You've excelled yourself with this one =D>


i notice that you haven't commented on player's argument that "only women can decide whether abortion is okay or not"

probably because you agree with her

her position is dumber than his because private sector experience is actually relevant to the topic and not just an emotional appeal
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:20 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.


do you understand what "lay people off" means?
it's a euphemism for firing people.
that is, terminating their employment.
ending their job.


I'm sorry you're having trouble following the discussion. The argument is whether tax rates stop company growth. They do not. Nor do people get fired because of tax rates. (Unless of course you want to stick with your argumentum ad absurdum position, of course.)


You're being absurd ITT.


Woodruff, you're being absurd. I'm not sure why you are having a problem admitting you're wrong in this thread. If taxes could be passed on to consumers and not affect a business in any other salient way, I wouldn't have a job.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:32 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:okay so, the tax rates are "passed on to the consumer". this means the product is more expensive and less people will buy it. this hurts the company and forces them to lay people off or produce less.


Again, this does not show that tax increase affect job growth.


do you understand what "lay people off" means?
it's a euphemism for firing people.
that is, terminating their employment.
ending their job.


I'm sorry you're having trouble following the discussion. The argument is whether tax rates stop company growth. They do not. Nor do people get fired because of tax rates. (Unless of course you want to stick with your argumentum ad absurdum position, of course.)


You're being absurd ITT.


Woodruff, you're being absurd. I'm not sure why you are having a problem admitting you're wrong in this thread. If taxes could be passed on to consumers and not affect a business in any other salient way, I wouldn't have a job.


The idea that businesses would necessarily use the money that "could have gone to taxes" to hire more people and grow their business (rather than piling it up as profits) is equally ludicrous. Otherwise, why aren't we having the freaking largest boom in our nation's history over the last ten or so years?

And yet not one of you guys has pointed that out. I can't imagine why that would be.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:50 pm

We were focusing on the fact that you were wrong, and now we're enjoying your pains in failing to admit that you were wrong.

We will continue to monitor this thread for further signs of lulz.
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:44 pm

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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:46 pm

"Americans for Prosperity"

As opposed to, "Americans Against Prosperity"
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:47 pm

Woodruff wrote:The idea that businesses would necessarily use the money that "could have gone to taxes" to hire more people and grow their business (rather than piling it up as profits) is equally ludicrous. Otherwise, why aren't we having the freaking largest boom in our nation's history over the last ten or so years?

And yet not one of you guys has pointed that out. I can't imagine why that would be.


Have we had lower taxes over the past ten or so years?
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Re: What is the Republican Party?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:58 pm

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