Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

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Is it right for the Federal Gov't to force Massachusetts to Pay for Inmates Sex Change?

No, that's ridiculous. Why / how can this even be happening?
17
59%
Yes, of course it's a reasonable medical necessity. Just like laser hair removal, liposuction, and aromatherapy! (Also, I'm an idiot for voting for this option.)
8
28%
Not sure, but they definitely should provide all inmates with kittens!
4
14%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:43 pm

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine and who has a vested financial interest in the surgery happening over your medical opinion.


Fixed.


Even with that potentially being true, it still would make more sense to go with the medical opinion of the physician, wouldn't it?


Sure. But the issue is not whether the doctor is correct; the issue is whether the state should pay for it. And the potentially self-interested doctor made that determination.

If I can also interject a pet peeve of mine - Doctors are trusted experts in the sense that some people will literally do anything a doctor says. And doctors have lots of power for that reason. So I hate it when doctors act in a manner that makes them scumbags. Which is what I think this is.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine and who has a vested financial interest in the surgery happening over your medical opinion.


Fixed.


Even with that potentially being true, it still would make more sense to go with the medical opinion of the physician, wouldn't it?


Sure. But the issue is not whether the doctor is correct; the issue is whether the state should pay for it. And the potentially self-interested doctor made that determination.

If I can also interject a pet peeve of mine - Doctors are trusted experts in the sense that some people will literally do anything a doctor says. And doctors have lots of power for that reason. So I hate it when doctors act in a manner that makes them scumbags. Which is what I think this is.


I agree with you. On all counts.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine and who has a vested financial interest in the surgery happening over your medical opinion.


Fixed.


Even with that potentially being true, it still would make more sense to go with the medical opinion of the physician, wouldn't it?


I agree, the physician also has his reputation to consider. It's not just all about performing as many surgeries as they can lol.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine and who has a vested financial interest in the surgery happening over your medical opinion.


Fixed.


Even with that potentially being true, it still would make more sense to go with the medical opinion of the physician, wouldn't it?


I agree, the physician also has his reputation to consider. It's not just all about performing as many surgeries as they can lol.


Oh, I'm sure the physician does think it's medically necessary. I'm not suggesting that the doctors are all sitting around thinking up ways they can make more money. The question is not whether the physician think it's medically necessary (although apparently that has become the question). The question is whether the state should pay for it. And the determination of whether the state should pay for it should not be made by a doctor.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:34 am

Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine over your medical opinion.

Let me ask you... is Gender Identity Disorder a medical or mental condition.

Please answer the specific question asked.

Mental conditions fall within the parameters of medical conditions. Perhaps you meant "physical" instead of "medical"?

Thank you, I don't think I would have put it that succinctly.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:41 am

Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:jim, we get it, ok? You think you know better than medical professionals what is and is not a legitimate condition. You've made your point. Being a know-it-all even if you have no fucking clue is normal behaviour on the internet.

I'm still going to trust the medical opinion of a physician who's studied medicine over your medical opinion.


Let me ask you... is Gender Identity Disorder a medical or mental condition.

Please answer the specific question asked.


Mental conditions fall within the parameters of medical conditions. Perhaps you meant "physical" instead of "medical"?


I was thinking about the wording of this last night.

Let me rephrase... is Gender Identity Disorder a Psychological/Psychiatric condition or a Physical condition?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Symmetry on Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:46 pm

Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:15 pm

Symmetry wrote:Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.


Why?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Symmetry on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:19 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.


Why?


Why what?

Do you object to the state paying for the medical expenses of its prisoners? The alternative is a gulag.

Or do you object to medical professionals deciding what is or isn't medically necessary?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:21 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.


Why?


Why what?

Do you object to the state paying for the medical expenses of its prisoners? The alternative is a gulag.

Or do you object to medical professionals deciding what is or isn't medically necessary?


The issue is not whether the prisoner gets treatment. The issue is whether the state pays for the treatment. I think the government is fully able to and should be fully able to determine whether it must pay for the treatment, whether the doctor says it's necessary or not.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Symmetry on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.


Why?


Why what?

Do you object to the state paying for the medical expenses of its prisoners? The alternative is a gulag.

Or do you object to medical professionals deciding what is or isn't medically necessary?


The issue is not whether the prisoner gets treatment. The issue is whether the state pays for the treatment. I think the government is fully able to and should be fully able to determine whether it must pay for the treatment, whether the doctor says it's necessary or not.


That seems like a rather disturbing principle. Essentially you're saying that medical diagnoses should be left to popular consensus rather than medical expertise with regards to implementation.

The issue, of course, is whether the prisoner gets treatment.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:blah, blah, blah


Why?


Why what?



Why did you bump this topic when it was essentially dead?

Why have you not answered Jim's question? Are you afraid?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Surely the state has made a decision to defer to the doctors it employs as to what is or isn't necessary. If an illness of any kind is politically unsavoury to the politicos in charge, should it go untreated when diagnosed and treatment is recommended?

The state already has an obligation to pay for medical treatment of those that it imprisons. The deciders of what or what isn't proper medical treatment shouldn't depend on politicians, but on medical diagnosis by medical professionals.


Why?


Why what?

Do you object to the state paying for the medical expenses of its prisoners? The alternative is a gulag.

Or do you object to medical professionals deciding what is or isn't medically necessary?


The issue is not whether the prisoner gets treatment. The issue is whether the state pays for the treatment. I think the government is fully able to and should be fully able to determine whether it must pay for the treatment, whether the doctor says it's necessary or not.


That seems like a rather disturbing principle. Essentially you're saying that medical diagnoses should be left to popular consensus rather than medical expertise with regards to implementation.

The issue, of course, is whether the prisoner gets treatment.


I wish you would stop framing the issue as one about who gets to make the diagnosis when I've already indicated multiple times that this is not the issue. The doctor absolutely should make the diagnosis. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone other than the doctor should make the diagnosis. The issue is not whether the prisoner gets treatment. The prisoner could be diagnosed with a brain tumor by a doctor; the prisoner should have it operated on. The question then becomes who should pay for it. Does the patient pay for it? Does the doctor pay for it? Does the state pay for it? States make determinations as to who gets what money on a daily basis. I'm fairly sure you're familiar with how that works, so I'm struggling as to why this is so difficult for you to grasp right now.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Because he doesn't want to argue about government provision v. not government provision?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:21 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Because he doesn't want to argue about government provision v. not government provision?


WHAT? Are you saying he would prefer to argue about the propriety of perscribing sex change operations in general rather than the government paying for something? Is that what you're saying? I would never believe that of Symmetry! Of all people!
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