Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

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Is it right for the Federal Gov't to force Massachusetts to Pay for Inmates Sex Change?

No, that's ridiculous. Why / how can this even be happening?
17
59%
Yes, of course it's a reasonable medical necessity. Just like laser hair removal, liposuction, and aromatherapy! (Also, I'm an idiot for voting for this option.)
8
28%
Not sure, but they definitely should provide all inmates with kittens!
4
14%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:54 pm

jimboston wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
jimboston wrote:Updates...

1) The judge has ordered the State to pay for this guy's electrolysis (per doctor review / expert review).

2) The judge has announced he's retiring (going part time I guess)... but it has NOTHING to do with this case.


Well, like player pointed out, we can't just be ok with a system until something like this comes up which rubs us the wrong way and affects our personal sensibilities. There is a system in place and this case is just one product of that system, perhaps a necessary evil, but for all intensive purposes, a just ruling. If the judge is semi-retiring because of heat from this issue it doesn't necessarily mean he did the wrong thing, given the letter of the law. It appears he was just doing his job. He is a scapegoat, which is never a valid situation.


If Player did point this out it was buried in 1000 words of other crap, so I never read it.

Yeah.. anything you don't want to hear you dismiss as "crap". Too bad you think that is intelligent debating...and too bad a large segment of US society seems to think so as well (on ALL sides, that! I have probably MORE disdain, not less for supposedly liberal folks who cannot be bothered to even listen to anyone with seemingly conservative ideas or actually conservative ideas).

That said:

jimboston wrote:I am not and haven't been "OK" with the system. Just that more often life gets in the way, and it takes something extraordinarily ridiculous to raise my ire... and the ire of the "silent majority".

Being opposed to the system is irrelevant to this issue. You declared the judge an "activist judge" for making a ruling you dislike, My whole point is that the judge is essentially not allowed to have "likes and dislikes" in his rulings. He has to rule according to the law, wich includes precedents, whether you, I or he likes it or not.


I ALSO made the point that if you dislike the law, then the procedure is to get the law changed. The ironly here is that if this judge HAD ruled as you would like, then he would be an "activist judge". Instead, he followed the law.

YOUR task, if you dislike this, is to get the law changed. BUT.. that involves actually understanding a bit of the issues and not just " I think transvestites are wackos and anyone who says different is a wacko, too". You were too busy telling everyone how idiotic the whole idea of gender surgery was to even bother to understand the real issues... and THAT is a very, very big problem.


jimboston wrote:Also... it's just YOUR opinion that the judge made the right ruling. Just because that was his ruling... it DOES NOT mean it was the RIGHT ruling. He's a human being and certainly capable of making mistakes.

The LAW determines if it was the correct ruling, not whether you like the outcome or not. In this case, the judge followed the law. THAT is the part you continually seem to ignore.

It is the law that you can say is "wacko", not the judge.

Now... for green, etc... I am "on the fence" about gender surgery. MY basic statement is that when average, not convicted people cannot get such surgeries covered by insurance for which they pay, then we have no obligation to provide it for prisoners. BUT.. that needs to be changed through the law, not judges excercising personal opinions.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Symmetry on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:31 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:blah, blah, blah


Why?


Why what?



Why did you bump this topic when it was essentially dead?

Why have you not answered Jim's question? Are you afraid?


Why are you referring to yourself in the third person? Why are you a cook with a subscription? How long do you think it'll be before the mods notice?

So many questions, so few answers.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:03 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Why are you a cook with a subscription?



What does this have to do with the debate?

AD HOMINEM
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:14 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Yeah.. anything you don't want to hear you dismiss as "crap".


No. I only dismiss what YOU say as crap.

PLAYER57832 wrote:and too bad a large segment of US society seems to think so as well...


I can't speak for a large segment of US society... but I would venture to guess that a large segment of CC Society also thinks that most of what you say is crap.

PLAYER57832 wrote:You declared the judge an "activist judge" for making a ruling you dislike,


I actually I called him an activist judge not for making a ruling I personally dislike... I called him an activist judge for making a ruling that the VAST MAJORITY OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION would disagree with and find ridiculous on its' face.

PLAYER57832 wrote:The ironly here...


I don't know what ironly is... can you explain this concept to me???

Does our discussion have to be well pressed or something?

PLAYER57832 wrote: is that if this judge HAD ruled as you would like, then he would be an "activist judge". Instead, he followed the law.


Correction... he followed HIS interpretation of the law. Bending or stretching the law is "bench activism". I am sure there is no law that states "the DOC must provide sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) to all who request it". The law does say that (paraphrasing) that the DOC must provide reasonable health care... I just don't think that SRS would be reasonable to THE VAST MAJORITY of people... and therefore, ordering it is activism.

The Constitution states that punishments must not be "cruel and unusual"... I don't see how NOT providing SRS is either "cruel" or "unusual".

I also will refer to recent posts regarding the slippery slope of this ruling... which only one poster has addressed.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:31 pm

Jb, I can relate with you on at least part of the issue but I can't help but point something out:


jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Why are you a cook with a subscription?



What does this have to do with the debate?

AD HOMINEM




jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The ironly here...


I don't know what ironly is... can you explain this concept to me???

Does our discussion have to be well pressed or something?

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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Jb, I can relate with you on at least part of the issue but I can't help but point something out:


jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Why are you a cook with a subscription?



What does this have to do with the debate?

AD HOMINEM



jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The ironly here...


I don't know what ironly is... can you explain this concept to me???

Does our discussion have to be well pressed or something?



Those are two seperate and distinct things.

A person's skill (or lack thereof) at CC... does not necessarily translate to his/her intelligence.

A person's inability to spell (especially in light of the fact that CC provides a spell-checker) i believe does relate to intelligence.

Furthermore...

1) It can be argued that score / rank is not even in absolute correlation with ability in CC. I generally float around Sergeant (still a low rank, but better than cook)... however I have been trying a bunch of different maps, plusn the new "trench warfare" option has had a negative impact on my rank.

2) Symmetry ONLY attacked my score and did not comment or rebutt ANY of my points at all. I did make fun of Player... but I ALSO did reply to and/or rebutt several of her points. I would agree that personal attacks are not the "right" way to "debate" here... however I also think that mixing up silly insults along with actually responses is fina and common; wereas resposne that are ONLY personal attacks are a complete different story.

Make sense?

Do I get some points back... if not FULL aquittal?
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:01 pm

jimboston wrote:
Do I get some points back... if not FULL aquittal?


Well I'm not really keeping a tally but admittedly symmetry broke the proverbial ice. However, it's customary to make a low blow back at the offender, not someone else. :D Of all the posters on here player is probably one of the least likely to make potshots.
Also, to be fair I don't think it was a spelling mistake, more likely a typo. But even if it were a spelling mistake I'm not sure how much of a reflection spelling skills are of overall intelligence but that's another debate in of itself.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Woodruff on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:02 pm

jimboston wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Jb, I can relate with you on at least part of the issue but I can't help but point something out:

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Why are you a cook with a subscription?



What does this have to do with the debate?

AD HOMINEM


jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The ironly here...


I don't know what ironly is... can you explain this concept to me???

Does our discussion have to be well pressed or something?



Those are two seperate and distinct things.

A person's skill (or lack thereof) at CC... does not necessarily translate to his/her intelligence.

A person's inability to spell (especially in light of the fact that CC provides a spell-checker) i believe does relate to intelligence.

Furthermore...

1) It can be argued that score / rank is not even in absolute correlation with ability in CC. I generally float around Sergeant (still a low rank, but better than cook)... however I have been trying a bunch of different maps, plusn the new "trench warfare" option has had a negative impact on my rank.


Your intelligence appears low, Mr Ad Hominem.

jimboston wrote:2) Symmetry ONLY attacked my score and did not comment or rebutt ANY of my points at all. I did make fun of Player... but I ALSO did reply to and/or rebutt several of her points. I would agree that personal attacks are not the "right" way to "debate" here... however I also think that mixing up silly insults along with actually responses is fina and common; wereas resposne that are ONLY personal attacks are a complete different story.

Make sense?

Do I get some points back... if not FULL aquittal?


Starting to look downright dumb, in fact...
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Do I get some points back... if not FULL aquittal?


Well I'm not really keeping a tally but admittedly symmetry broke the proverbial ice. However, it's customary to make a low blow back at the offender, not someone else. :D Of all the posters on here player is probably one of the least likely to make potshots.
Also, to be fair I don't think it was a spelling mistake, more likely a typo. But even if it were a spelling mistake I'm not sure how much of a reflection spelling skills are of overall intelligence but that's another debate in of itself.


I don't see a distinction between a spelling mistake and a typo. I understand the distinction... but don't agree.

You're right, Player doesn't take a lot of potshots, kudos to her... she's a "bigger" poster than I.

My pothsot at Player wasn't caused Symmetry... I have a long history of insulting her.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:33 am

Woodruff wrote:
jimboston wrote:mixing up silly insults along with actually responses is fina and common; wereas resposne


Starting to look downright dumb, in fact...


touche'

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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:24 am

jimboston wrote: .

Correction... he followed HIS interpretation of the law. Bending or stretching the law is "bench activism". I am sure there is no law that states "the DOC must provide sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) to all who request it". The law does say that (paraphrasing) that the DOC must provide reasonable health care... I just don't think that SRS would be reasonable to THE VAST MAJORITY of people... and therefore, ordering it is activism.

The Constitution states that punishments must not be "cruel and unusual"... I don't see how NOT providing SRS is either "cruel" or "unusual".

I also will refer to recent posts regarding the slippery slope of this ruling... which only one poster has addressed.

Thank you for clarifying your lack of understanding of our legal process.

See, only the Supreme court uses the Constitution as its sole guide. Judges use local/state/federal laws (depending on their jurisdictions) and the interpretations of higher courts as their law. They are not allowed to go against precedence set by a higher court. And, only in some cases (talk to an attorney on this one) by "parallel" courts.

So, what the judge did was not to say that he himself thought xyz is cruel and unusual.. he said that other courts had already determined surgeries dictated by the medical profession have to be provided to avoid violation of the crule and unusual bit, so he had to approve this.
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Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:42 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote: .

Correction... he followed HIS interpretation of the law. Bending or stretching the law is "bench activism". I am sure there is no law that states "the DOC must provide sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) to all who request it". The law does say that (paraphrasing) that the DOC must provide reasonable health care... I just don't think that SRS would be reasonable to THE VAST MAJORITY of people... and therefore, ordering it is activism.

The Constitution states that punishments must not be "cruel and unusual"... I don't see how NOT providing SRS is either "cruel" or "unusual".

I also will refer to recent posts regarding the slippery slope of this ruling... which only one poster has addressed.

Thank you for clarifying your lack of understanding of our legal process.

See, only the Supreme court uses the Constitution as its sole guide. Judges use local/state/federal laws (depending on their jurisdictions) and the interpretations of higher courts as their law. They are not allowed to go against precedence set by a higher court. And, only in some cases (talk to an attorney on this one) by "parallel" courts.

So, what the judge did was not to say that he himself thought xyz is cruel and unusual.. he said that other courts had already determined surgeries dictated by the medical profession have to be provided to avoid violation of the crule and unusual bit, so he had to approve this.


Bingo. Hopefully framing the argument in this "his job was on the line" context will shed some further light to all parties involved.
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