Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Is it right for the Federal Gov't to force Massachusetts to Pay for Inmates Sex Change?

No, that's ridiculous. Why / how can this even be happening?
17
59%
Yes, of course it's a reasonable medical necessity. Just like laser hair removal, liposuction, and aromatherapy! (Also, I'm an idiot for voting for this option.)
8
28%
Not sure, but they definitely should provide all inmates with kittens!
4
14%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:54 pm

natty dread wrote:Can this thread be closed for bigotry and jimboston be given a ban according to the bigotry guidelines?

Give it a rest. not wanting to pay for someone else's sex change operation is hardly bigotry.
natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Its particularly outrageous when you recognize that many other prisoners, some not even convicted yet (just being held for trial and therefore supposed to be considered innocent), and fully innocent kids are not getting care THEY need.


A lot of poor African children are not getting the food THEY need. Why should you rich Americans give food to the homeless Americans?

Your sarcastic argument doesn't even make sense. Homeless Americans are needy and giving food to them is not taking away from poor African children. Their problems are distinct.

Paying for non critical surgaries for prisoners directly takes away from both other prisoners and people outside of prison needing assistance.
natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:As much as I do think even killers should get reasonable medical treatment, to say that this convicted murderer has the "right" to an operation that might make him feel better about himself, but that is not necessary to save his life or to provide for the general safety of the population is just ridiculous.


So you're saying that prisoners who have depression or other mental problems shouldn't receive any medication or therapy at all? It seems like you're saying that.
Really, with no exaggeration?
This guy is and continues to recieve hormone treatments. I never said they should stop. (not a doctor, not going to decide that).

Basically, it would depend on the cost. We ARE limiting healthcare to everyone. Prisoners should not get better treatment than those outside of prison. Yet, they often do. That is just wrong.

natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Breast reduction surgary, nose jobs, scar removals are also medically warranted. That doesn't mean they are so necessary that tax payers should provide them for prisoners.


Who should provide them for them then?
If they want them when they get out of prison, they can pay themselves.. or do without like most people.
You like to pretend that costs don't matter, there is no triage, etc. That is just not reality.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:20 pm

natty dread wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't deny that such an operation may be necessary or is a disease, but I balk at the taxpaying argument.


So you're saying, everyone should pay for their own medical care then. So poor people who can't afford medical care should just do us a favour and die, right?


Why do such close-minded, ignorant liberals/social democrats/people on the left constantly make such a stupid strawman argument?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3600
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby natty dread on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:38 am

jimboston wrote:Please explain how my comments a bigoted in any way.


Your transphobic assertions that trans-sexual people are not really the gender or sex they say they are, or that gender dysphoria is not a real thing, are bigotry. It's analoguous to claiming that all homosexuals are mentally insane.

Face it Jimbo, you're a bigot.

jimboston wrote:2) Yes, I am a Taxpayer, so I should have input into how my tax dollars are spent... and I should be able to point out instances where the spending is unnecessary.


You have, it's called voting. If the majority of people disagree with you and vote for people who disagree about your ideas about the proper usage of taxpayer money, then you're in the minority with your opinion. Or at least that's how it works in theory.

Either way, you don't get to opt out of taxes just because they get used to something you disagree with. You can't just say "I found out that 5% of these taxes go to paying XXX, so I'm going to pay 5% less taxes because I disagree with it". The world just doesn't work that way.

jimmy bots son wrote:1) Please don't edit my name. That should be a ban-able offense.


But it isn't. Deal with it.

jimboston wrote:You are a stoopid self-righteous ass.


Thank you. You're a bigot troll so I'm going to take that as a compliment.

jimboston wrote:Perhaps if you were from some poorer country your comments about what "you Americans" pay-for or not pay-for would carry weight. Being from Finlad it doesn't.


Yes it does.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: fucked off
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby natty dread on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:50 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Give it a rest. not wanting to pay for someone else's sex change operation is hardly bigotry.



Asserting that trans-people are all mentally insane (which is exactly what jimbo implied) is bigotry.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Your sarcastic argument doesn't even make sense. Homeless Americans are needy and giving food to them is not taking away from poor African children. Their problems are distinct.

Paying for non critical surgaries for prisoners directly takes away from both other prisoners and people outside of prison needing assistance.


Oh, so you're the one who gets to assess which operations are necessary and which aren't? Funny, I always thought it was the doctor who would do that.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Really, with no exaggeration?


Yes really. Depression is not physically life-threatening, so according to your standards, prisoners suffering from it shouldn't receive treatment for it, at least if it's paid by taxpayers.

Same goes for psychosis, schitzophrenia, anxiety, etc... the whole spectrum of personality disorders. All should go untreated because they're not "critical" or "life-threatening" (hey, if the prisoners try to harm themselves/others, you can always just strap them to their beds and force-feed them, no biggie).

This guy is and continues to recieve hormone treatments. I never said they should stop. (not a doctor, not going to decide that).


So why draw the line at that? If you're ok with the treatments in general, why is the operation such a big deal?

PLAYER57832 wrote:Basically, it would depend on the cost. We ARE limiting healthcare to everyone. Prisoners should not get better treatment than those outside of prison. Yet, they often do. That is just wrong


So why is your solution worsening the healthcare of prisoners, instead of improving the healthcare of everyone else?

PLAYER57832 wrote:If they want them when they get out of prison, they can pay themselves.. or do without like most people.
You like to pretend that costs don't matter, there is no triage, etc. That is just not reality.


So, would you say that a mentally ill person should pay for their own medications, or "do without"? That if you suffer from depression, you should pay for your own doctor, your own anti-depression medication, and if you can't pay for them, just "do without"?

Or, are you like Jimbo, and also asserting that gender dysphoria is "not a legitimate condition" despite there being tons of evidence of it being such? Is this a religious thing? Like, you shouldn't change what god made you into and so on? And if so, don't you think religion should be kept separate from politics?
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: fucked off
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:18 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
natty dread wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't deny that such an operation may be necessary or is a disease, but I balk at the taxpaying argument.


So you're saying, everyone should pay for their own medical care then. So poor people who can't afford medical care should just do us a favour and die, right?


Why do such close-minded, ignorant liberals/social democrats/people on the left constantly make such a stupid strawman argument?

I see, so according to you conservatives and right wingers never do that?

Even in these threads, the right is far more represented by close-minded individuals than the left. Note, I don't agree with Natty, but your accusation against liberals in general was highly biased to the point of representing what you yourself are attacking.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:26 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
natty dread wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't deny that such an operation may be necessary or is a disease, but I balk at the taxpaying argument.


So you're saying, everyone should pay for their own medical care then. So poor people who can't afford medical care should just do us a favour and die, right?


Why do such close-minded, ignorant liberals/social democrats/people on the left constantly make such a stupid strawman argument?

I see, so according to you conservatives and right wingers never do that?


Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Even in these threads, the right is far more represented by close-minded individuals than the left. Note, I don't agree with Natty, but your accusation against liberals in general was highly biased to the point of representing what you yourself are attacking.

Again, completely irrelevant.


I'm just tired of seeing natty's ignorant and close-minded (oooh! and bigoted in a bad way!) strawman argument.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3600
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:36 am

natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Give it a rest. not wanting to pay for someone else's sex change operation is hardly bigotry.



Asserting that trans-people are all mentally insane (which is exactly what jimbo implied) is bigotry.
Asserting that homosexuals are insane IS very much bigotry. Transgenderism is still more controversial. More evidence is needed before you can flat out claim anyone disagreeing is just a "bigot". Also, context matters. Saying "I don' think this is a legitimate illness" is a legitimate argument when the question is should we be paying for this surgery. Saying someone is mentally ill is, in THIS context, an opinion pertinent to the subject, it is not a slur. If he were saying "hey, these people just don't deserve to live", then maybe. However, I can find posts where you yourself have called people "insane" (and yes, I am guilty as well) simply for disagreeing.

Freedom means allowing a diversity of opinion, not that anyone who disagrees with anyone else is automatically a bigot. Open discussion means allowing people to express opinions, find facts to back them up. Rather than calling him a bigot, why not ask him to provide legitimate sources to back up his beliefs ... and provide some of your own. That said, for most of us whether transgenders should get surgery at all for that condition is actually irrelevant.

natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Your sarcastic argument doesn't even make sense. Homeless Americans are needy and giving food to them is not taking away from poor African children. Their problems are distinct.

Paying for non critical surgaries for prisoners directly takes away from both other prisoners and people outside of prison needing assistance.


Oh, so you're the one who gets to assess which operations are necessary and which aren't? Funny, I always thought it was the doctor who would do that.
In the real world, in the US, its generally an insurance company that decides. When it comes to prisoners and such, then it does fall to the voters.

I WISH it were just up to doctors. But, even in that scenario, there is still the point of "triage".

natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Really, with no exaggeration?


Yes really. Depression is not physically life-threatening, so according to your standards, prisoners suffering from it shouldn't receive treatment for it, at least if it's paid by taxpayers.

Same goes for psychosis, schitzophrenia, anxiety, etc... the whole spectrum of personality disorders. All should go untreated because they're not "critical" or "life-threatening" (hey, if the prisoners try to harm themselves/others, you can always just strap them to their beds and force-feed them, no biggie).

At some point, when kids are being denied vaccinations and food in school so the state can pay for drugs for prisoners.. yes, we have to make limits.

The problem is not the basic idea that limits must exist. The issue is that they need to be made based on evidence, within an intelligent framework. In any case, the idea of taxpayers having to pay for an UNUSUAL surgary that most insurance companies won't pay for, that most law-abiding citizens, who may be equally in need cannot get.. is just wrong.

natty dread wrote:
This guy is and continues to recieve hormone treatments. I never said they should stop. (not a doctor, not going to decide that).


So why draw the line at that? If you're ok with the treatments in general, why is the operation such a big deal?

Cost, and need. This surgery is not covered by most insurance plans. That alone, says there is some justification for denying payment. Though I don't think the insurance standard should be "the standard," it does point to this being an issue reasonably worth consideration and not just automatic approval.
natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Basically, it would depend on the cost. We ARE limiting healthcare to everyone. Prisoners should not get better treatment than those outside of prison. Yet, they often do. That is just wrong


So why is your solution worsening the healthcare of prisoners, instead of improving the healthcare of everyone else?

Necessity. To claim I am not for care for everyone is to deny most of what I have written on the subject and to go off on a tangent. None-the-less, whether we like it or not, we are not, tommorrow or anytime soon going to get universal healthcare. Even if we did, there is still going to be a limit to the number of doctors practicing in some specialties, some areas, etc.

Its triage. Triage is one of the nastiest words there is in health care, particularly emergency services, because it means you actually let some people die, BUT, it is a standard of protocols that assess how to best utilize limited resources (of ANY type) to do the most good for the most people. Triage says you turn your back on some people you might otherwise try to save, BUT you are then able to save many more as a result.

Stop trying to pretend the world is ideal and that everything is just an obscure intellectual excercise. You sound like a fanatic, not a sensible person when you ignore reality.

natty dread wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:If they want them when they get out of prison, they can pay themselves.. or do without like most people.
You like to pretend that costs don't matter, there is no triage, etc. That is just not reality.


So, would you say that a mentally ill person should pay for their own medications, or "do without"? That if you suffer from depression, you should pay for your own doctor, your own anti-depression medication, and if you can't pay for them, just "do without"?

That IS what happens, that is my point. Millions of people DO have to "go without", not just for psycotic medications, but for blood pressure, cancer, other medications.

In addition, you have some factory limitations that have nothing to do with ability to pay. Right now, in PA, for example, there has been a shortage in adderol in some areas. Certain cancer drugs are limited. U

natty dread wrote:Or, are you like Jimbo, and also asserting that gender dysphoria is "not a legitimate condition" despite there being tons of evidence of it being such? Is this a religious thing? Like, you shouldn't change what god made you into and so on? And if so, don't you think religion should be kept separate from politics?

Oh please. I am not weighing in on that, except to say that it is more controversial than the idea of homosexuality being something inherent. I mean, from the liberal side, there is a debate as well --- among other issues, if we are aiming for a gender equal society as our goal, then why would anyone even need to change. I am not debating this, but for you to just make such blanket statements shows YOU are not even trying to understand other people's perspectives and, to be honest, have not really looked fully at all the literature.

Tolerance goes many ways. Its not just about accepting people who are different.. its also about accepting people with whom you fundamentally disagree, and acknowledging that even if you dislike their ideas, they still have a fundamental right to those ideas and to express them.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:40 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
natty dread wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't deny that such an operation may be necessary or is a disease, but I balk at the taxpaying argument.


So you're saying, everyone should pay for their own medical care then. So poor people who can't afford medical care should just do us a favour and die, right?


Why do such close-minded, ignorant liberals/social democrats/people on the left constantly make such a stupid strawman argument?

I see, so according to you conservatives and right wingers never do that?


Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Even in these threads, the right is far more represented by close-minded individuals than the left. Note, I don't agree with Natty, but your accusation against liberals in general was highly biased to the point of representing what you yourself are attacking.

Again, completely irrelevant.


I'm just tired of seeing natty's ignorant and close-minded (oooh! and bigoted in a bad way!) strawman argument.

Honestly, I am too. However, you did not just attack him, you very much DID make the statement that implies this is typical or common from the left, instead of just a factor of those at the extreme.

We need a diversity of opinion to have good discussions. I am not upset that Natty has a different view, though I am a tad irritated at him and others who often just go on the attack without really understanding or caring about the sheer complexity of ideas. But, we all are guilty at times.
Sergeant PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby natty dread on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:22 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Asserting that homosexuals are insane IS very much bigotry. Transgenderism is still more controversial.


Oh, I see. Your pet issues matter. Everyone else: fuck them.

How can you even say that? Can you seriously not see the hypocrisy in your claim? It's like saying "racist against black people IS very much bigotry. Racism against asians is still more controversial".

PLAYER57832 wrote: More evidence is needed before you can flat out claim anyone disagreeing is just a "bigot".


No it's not. There are people who are suffering because they feel their body parts do not match their experience of their gender. Are you saying that those people's experiences are invalid? That you know better than them? Why not just classify them as "insane" like was done for homosexuals a few decades ago. Problem solved sweeped under the carpet.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Also, context matters. Saying "I don' think this is a legitimate illness" is a legitimate argument when the question is should we be paying for this surgery.


No, it doesn't matter. The ends do not justify the means. Would you tell a depressed patient to just suck it up and grow a pair because their "illness is not legitimate" and then justify it with "I don't want to be paying for your treatment so it's ok for me to say that"?

PLAYER57832 wrote: Saying someone is mentally ill is, in THIS context, an opinion pertinent to the subject, it is not a slur.


No... just, no. Here's a fun thought experiment for you: Replace transgender people with homosexuals and see how you feel about that sentence.

PLAYER57832 wrote:. If he were saying "hey, these people just don't deserve to live", then maybe.


Oh. Just "maybe"? Ok, everyone, Player thinks it's maybe wrong to assert that transgender people don't deserve to live. Maybe they should be allowed to live.

Player, I think you should check your cisgender privilege.

PLAYER57832 wrote:However, I can find posts where you yourself have called people "insane" (and yes, I am guilty as well) simply for disagreeing.


Maybe, but that still doesn't make it ok. The "but someone else also did it" is never a justification for anything.

Also, I've never classified an entire group of people as "insane" because of their sexuality, gender, ethnicity or other attributes. That makes all the difference.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Freedom means allowing a diversity of opinion, not that anyone who disagrees with anyone else is automatically a bigot. Open discussion means allowing people to express opinions, find facts to back them up. Rather than calling him a bigot, why not ask him to provide legitimate sources to back up his beliefs ... and provide some of your own.


So, now it's the "you have to be tolerant of peoples' intolerance" line? So if I'm calling out racists for calling black people n***ers, are you going to tell me that I should just let them voice their opinions?

PLAYER57832 wrote:That said, for most of us whether transgenders should get surgery at all for that condition is actually irrelevant.


I think it's pretty relevant.

PLAYER57832 wrote:At some point, when kids are being denied vaccinations and food in school so the state can pay for drugs for prisoners.. yes, we have to make limits.


So, first you put more people in prisons for more ridiculous sentences than any other civilized country. Then you're complaining that you have to pay for the healthcare of your prisoners.

I say, you made your bed, now lay in it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem is not the basic idea that limits must exist. The issue is that they need to be made based on evidence, within an intelligent framework. In any case, the idea of taxpayers having to pay for an UNUSUAL surgary that most insurance companies won't pay for, that most law-abiding citizens, who may be equally in need cannot get.. is just wrong.


So again... why not campaign for the same treatment being available for non-prisoners instead of taking away from the ones that are in the worst possible position to defend themselves?

PLAYER57832 wrote:Cost, and need. This surgery is not covered by most insurance plans. That alone, says there is some justification for denying payment. Though I don't think the insurance standard should be "the standard," it does point to this being an issue reasonably worth consideration and not just automatic approval.


So, it appears you think insurance companies should be the ones deciding who gets what treatment. Funny - I keep thinking it should be up to the doctors to decide.

And "automatic approval" is a total red herring, that's not even what's in stake at here. Don't move the goalposts. "Automatic approval" is pretty much a non-issue when it comes to operations such as gender reassignment.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Necessity. To claim I am not for care for everyone is to deny most of what I have written on the subject and to go off on a tangent. None-the-less, whether we like it or not, we are not, tommorrow or anytime soon going to get universal healthcare. Even if we did, there is still going to be a limit to the number of doctors practicing in some specialties, some areas, etc.

Its triage. Triage is one of the nastiest words there is in health care, particularly emergency services, because it means you actually let some people die, BUT, it is a standard of protocols that assess how to best utilize limited resources (of ANY type) to do the most good for the most people. Triage says you turn your back on some people you might otherwise try to save, BUT you are then able to save many more as a result.

Stop trying to pretend the world is ideal and that everything is just an obscure intellectual excercise. You sound like a fanatic, not a sensible person when you ignore reality.


Aren't you being a bit overly dramatic here? It's not like you live in a 3rd-world country or anything - it's not like there's a shortage of malaria shots and you need to decide which 6/10 of the children in your family get vaccinations and assess which ones are least likely to die of starvation or scurvy anyway.

Maybe if you stop wasting so much money into supporting insurance companies, bailing out banks, subsidizing oil & coal and playing world police, you could use that money for healthcare.

PLAYER57832 wrote:That IS what happens, that is my point. Millions of people DO have to "go without", not just for psycotic medications, but for blood pressure, cancer, other medications.


Really? That's insane. Why wouldn't you give medications to those people? In my country, the state pays for the necessary medications of anyone who's too poor to afford to buy them, and even pays part of the cost for people who just have low income. We've yet to go bankrupt because of it. We've yet to have to deny surgery to transgender patients because of it, or even consider matters of "triage".

PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh please. I am not weighing in on that, except to say that it is more controversial than the idea of homosexuality being something inherent. I mean, from the liberal side, there is a debate as well --- among other issues, if we are aiming for a gender equal society as our goal, then why would anyone even need to change.


Seriously? That's got to be the stupidest thing I've heard this whole week. Just think about it for a while.

PLAYER57832 wrote: I am not debating this, but for you to just make such blanket statements shows YOU are not even trying to understand other people's perspectives and, to be honest, have not really looked fully at all the literature.


Sorry, but I don't need to read Mein Kampf to know that racism is wrong.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Tolerance goes many ways. Its not just about accepting people who are different.. its also about accepting people with whom you fundamentally disagree, and acknowledging that even if you dislike their ideas, they still have a fundamental right to those ideas and to express them.


And I have the right to call them out on their bullshit.

It's been fun, let's do this again sometime.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class natty dread
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: fucked off
Medals: 49
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (12) Map Contribution (12) General Contribution (7)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby patches70 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:36 am

I think natty should take up the cause and offer to pay for the inmate in question's sex change operation. After all, someone will have to pay for it. It would be better for someone who is willing to pay for it rather than confiscate from people who are not willing.

Wouldn't you agree natty? Or do you believe that if a person is against something, for whatever reason, that they must be forced through the power and violence of The State to comply even if their objections are not unlawful?

It is not unlawful for a Player or an OP to object to being force to pay for this inmate's procedure. Are you saying it's all right to say "Screw you", reach into their wallet and just take the funds anyway?

You're for the procedure, you pay for it then. Simple, expedient and fair. Voluntary charity is better than coerced...um...charity. Can it be called charity if it's coerced? I'll have to look into that....
Corporal patches70
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 pm
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby patches70 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:44 am

Massachusetts is running at a projected $1.3 billion budget shortfall. They can't afford their police, firemen, civic services and such. We need people like Natty to step up to pay for things like this felon's sex change operation. So, Natty, can Massachusetts expect a check from you forthcoming?

Here is the address you can send your payment to-

Massachusetts State Treasurer's Office
c/o Debt Management Department
One Ashburton Place, 12 th Floor Boston, MA 02108-1608
Corporal patches70
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 pm
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby jimboston on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:46 am

natty dread wrote:
jimboston wrote:Please explain how my comments a bigoted in any way.


Your transphobic assertions that trans-sexual people are not really the gender or sex they say they are, or that gender dysphoria is not a real thing, are bigotry. It's analoguous to claiming that all homosexuals are mentally insane.



Have have made no transphobic assertions. I am not afraid of some freak whom claims to be a different sex than they are. I just don't want to give money to someone who claims to be a different sex than they are.

Gender dysphoria is a real thing... in the sense that someone wants to be a different sex than they are. The person obviously has some serious mental issues.

Just because someone claims they are one sex doesn't make it so. Nature, God, chance, or whatever made you the sex that you are. Wanting to be the other sex doesn't make it so.

Do people with this "disorder" have a problem... yes. Should I be forced to pay for some pseudo-scientific "reconstruction" to help "fix" a their problem.

NO.

As an aside... I don't think that just because we can (kinda) change the sex of a person doesn't mean we should.

Aside number two... I have not made any analogy to "gender dysphoria" and homosexuality or bisexuality. The two are unrelated.

Aside number three... I also don't believe a significant number of "mental disorders" that the medical profession claims are real are indeed REAL. At least not in the sense that Cancer, broken bones, and heart attacks are real. I think ADD is somewhat real... but not to the extent that many claim, I don't think obesity is a "medical disorder" I think it's just a lack of self control, I also don't think alcoholism is a "medical" issue; again a lack of self control.

Are some people (because of genetics or upbringing) more prone to these issues... yes. Does that put these things on par with Cancer and Lou Gehrig's Disease... NO.

(Though this Aside 3 is a debate for another thread. The main point of this thread is to debate that question as-to whether or not the Tax Payer should pay for this freak's "treatment".)
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:56 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
natty dread wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't deny that such an operation may be necessary or is a disease, but I balk at the taxpaying argument.


So you're saying, everyone should pay for their own medical care then. So poor people who can't afford medical care should just do us a favour and die, right?


Why do such close-minded, ignorant liberals/social democrats/people on the left constantly make such a stupid strawman argument?

I see, so according to you conservatives and right wingers never do that?


Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Even in these threads, the right is far more represented by close-minded individuals than the left. Note, I don't agree with Natty, but your accusation against liberals in general was highly biased to the point of representing what you yourself are attacking.

Again, completely irrelevant.


I'm just tired of seeing natty's ignorant and close-minded (oooh! and bigoted in a bad way!) strawman argument.

Honestly, I am too. However, you did not just attack him, you very much DID make the statement that implies this is typical or common from the left, instead of just a factor of those at the extreme.

We need a diversity of opinion to have good discussions. I am not upset that Natty has a different view, though I am a tad irritated at him and others who often just go on the attack without really understanding or caring about the sheer complexity of ideas. But, we all are guilty at times.



I do not deny that a group within the right-wing exemplifies such stupidity. Just look at PS for some great examples!

I do constantly hear that strawman argument from close-minded and ignorant people on the left. Note the qualifiers "close-minded" and "ignorant" for "people on the left." My criticism only applies to those kind of people--but not all people on the left. There are my "friends on the left" who tend to be much more reasonable and understanding of my views--and more knowledgeable of their own.

Some however don't care to be criticized and don't care to listen. Natty fit the description with his straw man argument. He was clearly being close-minded and ignorant at that time, so I have to call that out.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3600
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:57 am

patches70 wrote:I think natty should take up the cause and offer to pay for the inmate in question's sex change operation. After all, someone will have to pay for it. It would be better for someone who is willing to pay for it rather than confiscate from people who are not willing.


I agree with this. Why not have people put their money where their mouth is?

How much do they really want to pay for the price of their own worldview?
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3600
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Federal Judge Orders State to Pay for Sex Change

Postby patches70 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:00 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
patches70 wrote:I think natty should take up the cause and offer to pay for the inmate in question's sex change operation. After all, someone will have to pay for it. It would be better for someone who is willing to pay for it rather than confiscate from people who are not willing.


I agree with this. Why not have people put their money where their mouth is?

How much do they really want to pay for the price of their own worldview?


It'd go something like this-

"It costs how much!? Screw you! Make someone else pay for it! <rabble rabble>"
Corporal patches70
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 pm
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: patches70 and 3 guests

Login