Showing ID to Vote

[Symmetry]

I thought we already all agreed that Voter ID was a good idea?

I certainly didn't, and several courts have struck down voter ID laws recently, or postponed their decisions till after the presidential elections. I'm not sure it's as unanimous as you think it is.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/29/121029fa_fact_mayer

Is an interesting read if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Luckily, Symmetry does not have any skin in this game....IE no reason to have an opinion

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

You are incorrect, while this has become a US politics dominated thread, the issues involved have long been at play in the UK. British people rioted during the Thatcher years at such an imposition of an effective poll tax- paying for your right to vote.

On the conservative side, and why I find your faux-libertarianism so at odds with your position in this thread, many conservatives oppose the idea of the government collecting so much data on a free citizen for a national ID card needed to exercise the right to vote.

[Woodruff]

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

It's becoming clear why you like the Republican Party.

[Phatscotty]

I thought we already all agreed that Voter ID was a good idea?

I certainly didn't, and several courts have struck down voter ID laws recently, or postponed their decisions till after the presidential elections. I'm not sure it's as unanimous as you think it is.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/29/121029fa_fact_mayer

Is an interesting read if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Luckily, Symmetry does not have any skin in this game....IE no reason to have an opinion

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

You are incorrect, while this has become a US politics dominated thread, the issues involved have long been at play in the UK. British people rioted during the Thatcher years at such an imposition of an effective poll tax- paying for your right to vote.

On the conservative side, and why I find your faux-libertarianism so at odds with your position in this thread, many conservatives oppose the idea of the government collecting so much data on a free citizen for a national ID card needed to exercise the right to vote.

but how do people tell who is a citizen when rights reserved only for citizens, such as voting, are being exercized?

[Symmetry]

I thought we already all agreed that Voter ID was a good idea?

I certainly didn't, and several courts have struck down voter ID laws recently, or postponed their decisions till after the presidential elections. I'm not sure it's as unanimous as you think it is.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/29/121029fa_fact_mayer

Is an interesting read if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Luckily, Symmetry does not have any skin in this game....IE no reason to have an opinion

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

You are incorrect, while this has become a US politics dominated thread, the issues involved have long been at play in the UK. British people rioted during the Thatcher years at such an imposition of an effective poll tax- paying for your right to vote.

On the conservative side, and why I find your faux-libertarianism so at odds with your position in this thread, many conservatives oppose the idea of the government collecting so much data on a free citizen for a national ID card needed to exercise the right to vote.

but how do people tell who is a citizen when rights reserved only for citizens, such as voting, are being exercized?

I would ask a counter question- do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

[Phatscotty]

let me ask you a counter counter question. Why do you forget this is about voter security and accuracy of a necessary and primary at it's core function of government? You think just because good and smart and common sense government cost any money whatsoever, you can attack it with the large government argument?

Voting is a legitimate function of government, and the people get to decide democratically on a local level how much they want to pay for Voter ID security and efficient election systems. Like I said, we balanced our budget. Which means the Democrat governor has already executive ordered 500 billion dollars for stadiums and parks and water fountains. We are also putting a couple million into protecting peoples right to vote and making it more secure. We are aware of the cost, and also of the projections of money saved....

[Symmetry]

let me ask you a counter counter question. Why do you forget this is about voter security and accuracy of a necessary and primary at it's core function of government? You think just because good and smart and common sense government cost any money whatsoever, you can attack it with the large government argument?

Voting is a legitimate function of government, and the people get to decide democratically on a local level how much they want to pay for Voter ID security and efficient election systems. Like I said, we balanced our budget. Which means the Democrat governor has already executive ordered 500 billion dollars for stadiums and parks and water fountains. We are also putting a couple million into protecting peoples right to vote.

You've founded this argument on a false principle- that voter fraud is a significant problem that needs to be dealt with, and that voter ID would help people vote. I posted above a fairly weighty article outlining the problems with that position.

Now, when you read it, if you want, perhaps you can answer my question:

Do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

[Phatscotty]

let me ask you a counter counter question. Why do you forget this is about voter security and accuracy of a necessary and primary at it's core function of government? You think just because good and smart and common sense government cost any money whatsoever, you can attack it with the large government argument?

Voting is a legitimate function of government, and the people get to decide democratically on a local level how much they want to pay for Voter ID security and efficient election systems. Like I said, we balanced our budget. Which means the Democrat governor has already executive ordered 500 billion dollars for stadiums and parks and water fountains. We are also putting a couple million into protecting peoples right to vote.

You've founded this argument on a false principle- that voter fraud is a significant problem that needs to be dealt with, and that voter ID would help people vote. I posted above a fairly weighty article outlining the problems with that position.

Now, when you read it, if you want, perhaps you can answer my question:

Do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

yet more and more instances, from both sides, keep popping up of voter fraud...... and it is a problem in my state. A big problem, and guess who decides how big or small a problem it is? People from my state decide, not some Brit from half way around the world who thinks he knows our issues better than we do.

http://thebrennerbrief.com/2012/10/30/c ... ud-update/

COLUMBUS, Ohio – Three Ohio residents have come forward to confirm on the record their accounts of questionable practices by Democrats to influence voters in Ohio, a crucial swing state in the presidential contest, first reported by Human Events on Oct. 26.

[Symmetry]

let me ask you a counter counter question. Why do you forget this is about voter security and accuracy of a necessary and primary at it's core function of government? You think just because good and smart and common sense government cost any money whatsoever, you can attack it with the large government argument?

Voting is a legitimate function of government, and the people get to decide democratically on a local level how much they want to pay for Voter ID security and efficient election systems. Like I said, we balanced our budget. Which means the Democrat governor has already executive ordered 500 billion dollars for stadiums and parks and water fountains. We are also putting a couple million into protecting peoples right to vote.

You've founded this argument on a false principle- that voter fraud is a significant problem that needs to be dealt with, and that voter ID would help people vote. I posted above a fairly weighty article outlining the problems with that position.

Now, when you read it, if you want, perhaps you can answer my question:

Do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

yet more and more instances, from both sides, keep popping up of voter fraud...... and it is a problem in my state. A big problem, and guess who decides how big or small a problem it is? People from my state decide, not some Brit from half way around the world who thinks he knows our issues better than we do.

http://thebrennerbrief.com/2012/10/30/c ... ud-update/

COLUMBUS, Ohio – Three Ohio residents have come forward to confirm on the record their accounts of questionable practices by Democrats to influence voters in Ohio, a crucial swing state in the presidential contest, first reported by Human Events on Oct. 26.

[youtubeMrERV1dPbI4[/youtube]

I answered you fairly, and you come back with this muck? Phatscotty is a troll.

[Phatscotty]

government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is. I reject flat out your attempts to try to make this an issue about the size of government. Gov't will do their primary functions, and yes that costs money. You can't paint me into an Anarchist who wants no gov't

If you really cared about government size, you would be harping about the programs that cost hundreds of billions, not millions, with projections for future savings.

You true motive is to keep alive the only way the Left can win, and that is by cheating at the polls. The Right does it too (EVERYONE DOES IT) but especially the Left, most especially in Minnesota. Only the most hardcore Liberals and Progressives oppose this common sense issue.

[thegreekdog]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

[Symmetry]

government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is. I reject flat out your attempts to try to make this an issue about the size of government. Gov't will do their primary functions, and yes that costs money. You can't paint me into an Anarchist who wants no gov't

If you really cared about government size, you would be harping about the programs that cost hundreds of billions, not millions, with projections for future savings.

I care about a program that involves the government registering every citizen with a government issue ID in order to vote. It's obviously the point where your libertarianism breaks down in favour of partisan politics, and where my liberalism merges into libertarianism when it's not corrupted by silly right wing political hackery.

Would you support government registration of your fingerprints and iris scans as part of the ID card you want?

[Symmetry]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

[Phatscotty]

government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is. I reject flat out your attempts to try to make this an issue about the size of government. Gov't will do their primary functions, and yes that costs money. You can't paint me into an Anarchist who wants no gov't

If you really cared about government size, you would be harping about the programs that cost hundreds of billions, not millions, with projections for future savings.

I care about a program that involves the government registering every citizen with a government issue ID in order to vote. It's obviously the point where your libertarianism breaks down in favour of partisan politics, and where my liberalism merges into libertarianism when it's not corrupted by silly right wing political hackery.

Would you support government registration of your fingerprints and iris scans as part of the ID card you want?

then you have a problem with the concept of voter registration, not voter ID, and certainly not with me or the people of Minnesota

[thegreekdog]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

[Phatscotty]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

[Symmetry]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

While I'm fascinated by the internecine politics of the already vague libertarians, perhaps your criticisms should be directed more toward Scotty and his libertarian party stuff- Ron Paul and the Tea Party. You seem a little bit on the fringe of mainstream US libertarianism.

[Phatscotty]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

Symm, the results are in. The things you bring up now have already been brought up many times many different ways. The only thing left now is....

SCOREBOARD!

[Symmetry]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

Symm, the results are in. The things you bring up now have already been brought up many times many different ways. The only thing left now is....

SCOREBOARD!

Well, you certainly seem to agree with you.

[Phatscotty]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

Symm, the results are in. The things you bring up now have already been brought up many times many different ways. The only thing left now is....

SCOREBOARD!

Well, the overwhelming majority certainly seem to agree with you.

fixed

[Phatscotty]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

but it's common sense that voter ID will crack down on voter fraud

[Woodruff]

I thought we already all agreed that Voter ID was a good idea?

I certainly didn't, and several courts have struck down voter ID laws recently, or postponed their decisions till after the presidential elections. I'm not sure it's as unanimous as you think it is.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/29/121029fa_fact_mayer

Is an interesting read if you're interested in the other side of the debate.

Luckily, Symmetry does not have any skin in this game....IE no reason to have an opinion

I bet all the no votes are 90% foreign

You are incorrect, while this has become a US politics dominated thread, the issues involved have long been at play in the UK. British people rioted during the Thatcher years at such an imposition of an effective poll tax- paying for your right to vote.

On the conservative side, and why I find your faux-libertarianism so at odds with your position in this thread, many conservatives oppose the idea of the government collecting so much data on a free citizen for a national ID card needed to exercise the right to vote.

but how do people tell who is a citizen when rights reserved only for citizens, such as voting, are being exercized?

I would ask a counter question- do you believe that bigger government oversight over citizens is the answer?

Phatscotty believes that Big Government is the answer, as long as it's HIS Big Government.

government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is.

See what I mean?

[thegreekdog]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

While I'm fascinated by the internecine politics of the already vague libertarians, perhaps your criticisms should be directed more toward Scotty and his libertarian party stuff- Ron Paul and the Tea Party. You seem a little bit on the fringe of mainstream US libertarianism.

Hey, it's not my fault the Tea Party (and Phatscotty) self-identify as libertarians when they are clearly not. And I criticize Phatscotty plenty... even in this thread (!).

It's also not my fault you don't understand libertarianism or the Libertarian Party (of which Ron Paul is not a candidate and of which the Tea Party is not an organization).

Here is a relevant example:

York County Libertarian Party Chairman Dave Moser said in an email:

“Pennsylvania’s new voter I.D. law is redundant, unconstitutional, and a repugnant example of the political wrangling that we all have come to expect from status quo parties and politicians. The purpose of registering to vote is to fully qualify an individual to cast a ballot. That is the vetting process. To impose other forms of identification that an individual might not have other need for is cumbersome and when these other forms come with a price tag from the state they become a defacto poll tax. We here in These United States of America need to further enfranchise the population in the electorial process. Not enough people care to vest themselves in their own governance via the ballot now yet this law just created greater hurdles for those that have taken reasonable steps already to participate. I have seen various reports indicating anywhere from 9-11% of those currently registered to vote in the commonwealth do not have the necessary identification under this new law to vote this November.”

*

http://www.yorkblog.com/ydrpolitics/category/voter-id/

* If you read further, the local Tea Party organization leader also repudiates the voter registration law.

[Woodruff]

government size is not the issue. voting accuracy is. I reject flat out your attempts to try to make this an issue about the size of government. Gov't will do their primary functions, and yes that costs money. You can't paint me into an Anarchist who wants no gov't

If you really cared about government size, you would be harping about the programs that cost hundreds of billions, not millions, with projections for future savings.

I care about a program that involves the government registering every citizen with a government issue ID in order to vote. It's obviously the point where your libertarianism breaks down in favour of partisan politics, and where my liberalism merges into libertarianism when it's not corrupted by silly right wing political hackery.

Would you support government registration of your fingerprints and iris scans as part of the ID card you want?

then you have a problem with the concept of voter registration, not voter ID, and certainly not with me or the people of Minnesota

The people of Minnesota already HAVE a perfectly legitimate and workable method of ballot access. This isn't about voter ID, it's about removing those undesireable poor people from the rolls.

[Woodruff]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

I can deal with that. I don't care what anybody tries to call me or what they think I am. Perhaps it is time to accept that I actually am an overall Independent, and you will always have a hard time trying to pin whichever label is convenient at the time to label me with and then use to bash me with.

You're about as "independent" as a Soviet satellite state during the reign of the USSR.

[Woodruff]

Just checking in. Appears there is still no evidence that a lack of voter identification laws leads to voter fraud. Talk to you guys in a couple of pages.

Aye, at least there's one libertarian still hanging on to to the idea that more government oversight on voting rights is a bad solution to a non-existent problem.

I think you should look at it a different way - Phatscotty isn't actually a libertarian. If he's how you would define a libertarian, you'd also be incorrect.

While I'm fascinated by the internecine politics of the already vague libertarians, perhaps your criticisms should be directed more toward Scotty and his libertarian party stuff- Ron Paul and the Tea Party. You seem a little bit on the fringe of mainstream US libertarianism.

No, he really isn't. thegreekdog is very much in line with Libertarians on most issues. Phatscotty is not. Libertarianism isn't really all that vague.