Showing ID to Vote

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Should ya have to show ID when you vote?

Yes
38
64%
Kinda
4
7%
IDK
2
3%
Not Really
3
5%
No
12
20%
 
Total votes : 59

Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:01 pm

Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:In the ideal world, I shouldn't have to pay anything in order to prove my identity! (In the ideal world, I shouldn't have to pay anything to eat, and I should be paid $1,000,000 per year for writing on CC!) But that's being unrealistic because some people lie; therefore, you need to require that proper identification must be shown in order to vote. Otherwise, it would be easy to further corrupt the elections.


Which is why I don't understand the OP because LA already requires you to bring some form of identification in order to vote.


How's that working for providing ID to purchase alcohol? I understand that it merely fuels a booming trade in fake IDs. If the problem is that people are voting fraudulently, as you suggest, would they not be able to vote with fraudulent IDs?

What would be next? Registered fingerprints and iris scans?

All for a problem that is largely theoretical.



The answer is "good enough" to your question. Now, you do raise some good points, and of course, more could always be done, but ID cards in comparison to iris scanners is a good enough tradeoff given the current outcomes.


:et's examine the empirical data on incidents of voter fraud in LA given its current policies in enforcing the Election Code. Then, we'll use the economic way of thinking on this problem.


Louisiana Voter Fraud
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/L ... vote_fraud

Past incidents of fraud in Louisiana: 1997, "more than 1,400 cases in which two voters used the same Social Security number."
Dead people voting in Louisiana (since 2008): 0.
Incarcerated felons voting in Louisiana (2008): 0

October 14, 2008: "Over 50% of the 8,600 voter registrations turned in by the national group Voting Is Power (which has been associated with ACORN) were incomplete or incorrectly filled out."
"They turned in about 8600 applications, out of that number 1400 new ones, sorted out the new and then we had around 1400 address changes, the rest of them were non existent."
Disenfranchised districts:
Some poll staff were discouraging people from voting.


Etc., it seems that voting in LA has some problems, but it's not rampant. It's "good enough" given the identification policy which is supplemented with other means of enforcement.


Suppose that all laws for requiring identification in order to vote were dropped--which is what you say should happen because voting is a basic right. Would you expect an increase in voter fraud and other forms of cheating?
I would. Why?


Because the price of committing illegal actions would be significantly reduced through the means of voting in person at the ballots. Enforcement through the requirement of voter identification imposes a transaction cost. On the margin, as the price of voting in increased, then fewer and fewer people will commit that crime (because the costs become higher than the benefits of cheating). This price is also influenced by other means of enforcement, like the FBI and other bureaucrats, who level fines and jail time.

Now, of course, people can seek substitutes by finding fake IDs, but that endeavor has to be subsidized by some organization in order to be effective, so you'd need some means for laundering money for such activities. Then, you'd have to find and pay enough willing people (who risk the jail time) to commit fraud. Since this hardly happens, given the current system, then the possible substitute of fake IDs is not too much of concern.

What's more effective is having dead people vote, or sending in votes en masse using fake addresses. And those substitutes go beyond the identification requirements; however, this would not justify dropping the ID requirement because the ID requirement is a relatively cheap means to impose a cost-effective enough price on committing voter fraud at the ballots.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:03 pm

So, given my above point, I fail to see why specific Voter IDs are worth the costs.

LA already has the maens which deals well enough with voter fraud and other forms of cheating; therefore, a voter ID is not required.

To me, this voter ID seems to be another means for the government to increase its spending, provide more jobs (at the cost of taking more money from people, or by printing it, or borrowing it), etc.

Anyone in favor of voter ID laws--which require a specific Voter ID Card--are... not making sense.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:44 pm

AAFitz wrote:2012-09-07 19:04:22 - AAFitz assaulted Audience - A5 from Audience - A12 and conquered it from Phatscotty


See you in the arena
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:29 pm

jay_a2j wrote:The only people against it are those who want non-citizens the ability to vote! If you are a citizen whats the big deal having to show your ID. VOTER FRAUD is why people are against it! Would Obama have won in 2008 if ID's were required?

There is no RATIONAL reason NOT to have to show ID!

I see, so do you have records on illegal aliens attempting to vote?

or have any idea how much voter fraud there is of any type, overall?

Answer.. its not very much at all!
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:34 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:The only people against it are those who want non-citizens the ability to vote! If you are a citizen whats the big deal having to show your ID. VOTER FRAUD is why people are against it! Would Obama have won in 2008 if ID's were required?

There is no RATIONAL reason NOT to have to show ID!

I see, so do you have records on illegal aliens attempting to vote?

or have any idea how much voter fraud there is of any type, overall?

Answer.. its not very much at all!


The biggest problem with this issue is that people who come to the answer "not very much at all" are making the biggest and most unsubstantiated guesses of anyone.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:35 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:So, given my above point, I fail to see why specific Voter IDs are worth the costs.
This is a very good point, though I don't believe any area actually requires specific IDs.


In PA, you just need your driver's license. However, if you don't have a driver license, then you need either an official ID card OR a picture voter ID... and it has to be current. Many people in big cities, along with many elderly just don' thave driver's licenses or current licenses because they don't drive.

In PA, it can be difficult to get an ID. The local office only opens once a week.. and there is always a line. Plus, you do have to pay to get copies of the documents you need for an initial ID card or driver license. And getting those mostly means driving an hour.
BigBallinStalin wrote:LA already has the maens which deals well enough with voter fraud and other To me, this voter ID seems to be another means for the government to increase its spending, provide more jobs (at the cost of taking more money from people, or by printing it, or borrowing it), etc.

No, its more about helping Republicans. Its no cooincidence that its the Republican party pushing for this. Poorer people tend to vote Democratic. The states that are seeing the biggest push are states they hope to turn Republican this year, states like PA.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:The only people against it are those who want non-citizens the ability to vote! If you are a citizen whats the big deal having to show your ID. VOTER FRAUD is why people are against it! Would Obama have won in 2008 if ID's were required?

There is no RATIONAL reason NOT to have to show ID!

I see, so do you have records on illegal aliens attempting to vote?

or have any idea how much voter fraud there is of any type, overall?

Answer.. its not very much at all!


The biggest problem with this issue is that people who come to the answer "not very much at all" are making the biggest and most unsubstantiated guesses of anyone.

I realize this is hard for you to believe, but there tends to be a LOT of interest in voting results and people who vote. Look at BBS statistics above, just as an example.

Also, the idea that illegal entrants want to put all they have at risk just to case a US vote is pretty arrogant and ridiculous.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:41 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:The only people against it are those who want non-citizens the ability to vote! If you are a citizen whats the big deal having to show your ID. VOTER FRAUD is why people are against it! Would Obama have won in 2008 if ID's were required?

There is no RATIONAL reason NOT to have to show ID!

I see, so do you have records on illegal aliens attempting to vote?

or have any idea how much voter fraud there is of any type, overall?

Answer.. its not very much at all!


The biggest problem with this issue is that people who come to the answer "not very much at all" are making the biggest and most unsubstantiated guesses of anyone.

I realize this is hard for you to believe, but there tends to be a LOT of interest in voting results and people who vote. Look at BBS statistics above, just as an example.

Also, the idea that illegal entrants want to put all they have at risk just to case a US vote is pretty arrogant and ridiculous.


That's utter nonsense, because as it is right now, they aren't putting anything at risk, because like I said, there is virtually a 100% chance to get away with illegal voting. If ID is not required, how in the hell could you possibly track down the person who voted illegally? YOU NEVER KNEW WHO THEY WERE!!!!! Illegal voting is not a huge stretch for people who are already living here illegally, especially when it's someone promising more benefits, amnesty, etc....


Once voter ID is passed, then people residing here illegally will be risking everything if they try to vote illegally . And that is exactly the way it should be. Common sense

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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:37 pm

So, PS, what exactly is voter ID laws?

Because at least with LA and probably many States, in order to vote, you have to present some form of credible proof of your identity.

So, what's the purpose of this thread? What exactly is your topic?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby jimboston on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:46 pm

Honestly why is there even a debate about this?

You have to show ID to...

1) Buy cigarettes.
2) Buy alcohol.
3) Open a Bank Account.
4) Most other significant financial transaction... like get a Mortgage.
5) Get a Driver's License.
6) If you are pulled over by the Police.
7) Cash a check.
8) Write a check.
9) Cross a border to go to Canada or Mexico.
10) Get on a plane.

There is ABSOLUTELY no good argument AGAINST voted ID requirements... except some BS hypothetical idea that it "disenfranchises" a small portion of the (potentially) voting public. We live in a world that can easily overcome any reasonable objection to getting an ID.

I think that ID's SHOULD be mandatory.

I also think that adults should automatically be registered when they get a license or other ID.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:03 pm

Canada requires ID to vote (http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?se ... dex&lang=e).

Which describes your belief?

    (a) Canadian healthcare is good. Canadian election laws are crap.
    (b) Canadian healthcare is crap. Canadian election laws are good.
    (c) Canadian healthcare and election laws are both good.
    (d) Canadian healthcare and election laws are both crap.

I bet we'll get a lot of "A" and "B" and not many "C" or "D."
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:07 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
That's utter nonsense, because as it is right now, they aren't putting anything at risk, because like I said, there is virtually a 100% chance to get away with illegal voting. If ID is not required, how in the hell could you possibly track down the person who voted illegally? YOU NEVER KNEW WHO THEY WERE!!!!! Illegal

Well see, I have voted in more than a few districts. They are virtually always staffed by local individuals who generally actually know the people voting. When that is not the case, you have to do things like sign.. and the signatures and addresses ARE tracked, just like they are for petitions.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby kentington on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:16 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
That's utter nonsense, because as it is right now, they aren't putting anything at risk, because like I said, there is virtually a 100% chance to get away with illegal voting. If ID is not required, how in the hell could you possibly track down the person who voted illegally? YOU NEVER KNEW WHO THEY WERE!!!!! Illegal

Well see, I have voted in more than a few districts. They are virtually always staffed by local individuals who generally actually know the people voting. When that is not the case, you have to do things like sign.. and the signatures and addresses ARE tracked, just like they are for petitions.


I have voted in a few districts and the people working there were locals. They didn't seem to know anyone and I certainly didn't recognize them. At least they said they are locals.
Larger cities and areas with a denser populous (I don't mean tubby people) make it easier to commit voter fraud. I could do it easily.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:23 am

This thread is disappointing. Page 1 is NS and PS repeating talking points that they already lost on in the thread that I started. So they lose the discussion there and PS decides to start a new thread. How terrible and intellectually dishonest. I think that this thread should be merged with mine.

And remember Thomas Jefferson said that a democracy is just a mob rule where 51% of the population can take away the rights of 49% of the population. That's what they're proposing here. "Well if everyone votes for it then it must be good."

^ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM PS^


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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby kentington on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:36 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:This thread is disappointing. Page 1 is NS and PS repeating talking points that they already lost on in the thread that I started. So they lose the discussion there and PS decides to start a new thread. How terrible and intellectually dishonest. I think that this thread should be merged with mine.

And remember Thomas Jefferson said that a democracy is just a mob rule where 51% of the population can take away the rights of 49% of the population. That's what they're proposing here. "Well if everyone votes for it then it must be good."

^ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM PS^


http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-s ... 0556_n.jpg


Your thread is about showing ID to vote?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:39 am

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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:41 am

kentington wrote:
Your thread is about showing ID to vote?


It's about blocking votes. Showing ID is one of the methods used to do it, and it's been the main thing we've talk about through the whole thing. This is a conversation that is and should be held in that thread.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 am

1. IDs should be required to vote
2. IDs should be free
3. At the voting both, if a potential voter doesn't have an ID, they should tell said voter to get a free ID
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:46 am

IDs are required to vote.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


According to this, only senior citizens and flamboyantly gay men support voter ID.

Also, the cripple was photoshopped into this picture.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:58 am

I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby kentington on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't know what is going on. Is this for a special voter voucher or just requiring regular ID to vote.

I didn't need an ID to vote at the last election they just asked for my name and confirmed my address, which I could see on the paper in front of them.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:09 am

In North Dakota you don't even need to register to vote. You just show up and if you look familiar, then you can vote.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2004/rpt/2004-R-0032.htm
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:11 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't get what you don't get.

I just wanted to make a poll, and add some color along the way
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:21 am

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't know what is going on. Is this for a special voter voucher or just requiring regular ID to vote.

I didn't need an ID to vote at the last election they just asked for my name and confirmed my address, which I could see on the paper in front of them.


No, it's not for a special voting ID. Just regular ID
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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