Showing ID to Vote

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Should ya have to show ID when you vote?

Yes
38
64%
Kinda
4
7%
IDK
2
3%
Not Really
3
5%
No
12
20%
 
Total votes : 59

Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:39 am

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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:41 am

kentington wrote:
Your thread is about showing ID to vote?


It's about blocking votes. Showing ID is one of the methods used to do it, and it's been the main thing we've talk about through the whole thing. This is a conversation that is and should be held in that thread.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 am

1. IDs should be required to vote
2. IDs should be free
3. At the voting both, if a potential voter doesn't have an ID, they should tell said voter to get a free ID
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:46 am

IDs are required to vote.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:Image


According to this, only senior citizens and flamboyantly gay men support voter ID.

Also, the cripple was photoshopped into this picture.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:58 am

I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby kentington on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't know what is going on. Is this for a special voter voucher or just requiring regular ID to vote.

I didn't need an ID to vote at the last election they just asked for my name and confirmed my address, which I could see on the paper in front of them.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:09 am

In North Dakota you don't even need to register to vote. You just show up and if you look familiar, then you can vote.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2004/rpt/2004-R-0032.htm
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:11 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't get what you don't get.

I just wanted to make a poll, and add some color along the way
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:21 am

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?


I don't know what is going on. Is this for a special voter voucher or just requiring regular ID to vote.

I didn't need an ID to vote at the last election they just asked for my name and confirmed my address, which I could see on the paper in front of them.


No, it's not for a special voting ID. Just regular ID
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:43 am

This is a disastrous issue for Democrats to spend resources on and a slam-dunk for the GOP, non-issue though it may be. Democrats are never going to get traction with more than the 20% of the U.S. population that considers themselves strongly aligned with either of the two parties since the idea of not having any form of identification will be totally out of the frame of experience of 98% of the U.S. population, and the 2% for whom it will actually resonate are probably oblivious to the fact this issue is even being discussed. Policy debates are only successful if you can personalize the possible outcomes for the audience.

    This is the same reason Dennis Kucinich was never able to get any vegetarian issues inserted into the Democrat platform, there's no widely resonant story that can be crafted around them.

In any case, Scott, present a better break-down of "Yes" options in the poll, i.e.

(a) Yes, without exception
(b) Yes, but only if a free ID is provided when you originally register to vote
(c) Yes, but there should be an option for casting a provisional ballot if you don't have an ID
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:33 am

  • 25% of African Americans don't have photo IDs
  • Blacks overwhelmingly vote Democratic
  • There are .7 cases of Voter Impersonation/Fraud per state per year

Battleground states like Ohio have been decided by 2% margins in the past.
Sounds like common sense to me too. PS doesn't want Democrats voting in this election.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:40 am

JB, how many States allow someone to present other forms of ID that don't have a photo?

How many States provide $0.00 photo ID cards for voting?

What is the average amount of Voter impersonation/Fraud for those cases?

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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:14 am

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Of course there is. Voting is a right. If you have to purchase an ID in order to vote, you're having to purchase your right to vote from the state.


If your argument is that you don't need ID because voting is a right, then the same goes for guns.....right?


Not really, owning a gun as a right is a peculiarity of the US. I don't consider it a right. A right to own something ain't the same as a right to vote, in any case.

You shouldn't have to purchase your vote.


And yet, the RIGHT to keep and bear arms is a constitutional amendment that preceded the RIGHT to vote for many citizens.

One reason folks should have to show identification in order to vote, is because violations of certain laws result in loss of that right to vote, so identification is necessary to compare the person standing there to the list of those who lost the right and did not yet get that right reinstated.

And no, the identification should not be "free" because that means everyone else is paying for that person's proof of validity.
---If someone loses a birth certificate and needs a replacement, they have to pay
---If someone needs a driver license, they have to pay
---id is useless without a photo, and photos cost more than just a piece of paper.
---Even just paper costs money, as does the salary of the person who is typing up the piece of paper

Not sure why it's such an issue, though. In many states, for example, Florida, a person must show some form of identification with a signature - although it does not necessarily have to be a photo i.d. In other states, the person must show some form of proof of residency, for example, a utility bill with their name on it.

Finally, most states already send a voter registration card to inform a person which voting precinct they should go to on election day.

On the other hand... so many states are encouraging vote by mail, that it makes absolutely no sense that someone can send in a mail ballot (no id, right?) and get it counted, but if they forgot their i.d. at home if they go to a precinct, they don't get to vote??!! How unfair is that?

Thus, while I would prefer people to have to show a photo identification, if the by-mail ballots will continue to be accepted, then no, I shouldn't have to show any form of id at all when I show up in person at a precinct; and since I did (have to show id) I plan to write my county registrar a protest letter.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:56 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:[*]25% of African Americans don't have photo IDs.


1 - The Brennan Center's figures - which you're probably citing - have been strongly contradicted by more recent data.

2 - Even if the Brennan Center study was accepted, in 2008 35% of African Americans didn't vote. It's probably reasonable to assume that includes almost - if not all - of the population who live without ID. In other words, those who live without ID are in an extreme state of non-integration with society at large - likely due to some combination of endemic poverty, linguistic isolation and geographic disparity (e.g. the Gullah) - and it's an idyllic, white-bread fantasy to think abstract concepts like politics are even in their frame of awareness.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I still don't get this Voter ID issue.


Can someone please explain this to me???

Is PS clamoring for something which he doesn't understand?

I can speak of PA, because its a big issue here.

In the past, to vote, you had to show some kind of something... a driver license, free (local) voter ID card, even utility bills would generally suffice -- the list of people eligible to vote was printed out already, so this was just something that showed you were who you said you were. In practice, here, I was only asked for any kind of ID the very first time, when I had first moved here. After that, the election volunteers all knew me from church, etc. IN addition, it is always a requirement that you sign your name.. in every state where I have voted, that is a requirement, be it an electronic version or a paper copy. That is the primary verification, then... to see that the signature matches.



Right now, in order to vote, you have to have a government issued, current ID with a picture and an expiration date. For most people, a driver's license suffices. A segment of other people have non-driving commonwealth IDs, but a lot of people in big cities, particularly poorer people and elderly people, along with a good chunk of elderly people in "rural" areas (some poor people there, though even many of those tend to have IDs, since driving is so necessary).

The claim is that this is needed because there is a big problem or potential problem with voter fraud, but when the data is actually studied, it turns out that the percentage of fraud is very low. Proponents, like jay, etc., claim that those statistics are just wrong because without IDs, it is almost impossible (they say) to track any fraud. They generally (jay seems to be an exception) agree that some people will be hurt, but consider that a reasonable cost to have the system "secured".

Jay's claim of thousands of illegal aliens wanting to vote is, well, plain ridiculous and utterly groundless. I am sure you can find an isolated case, but its an abberation, not a real issue.
For jay's idea to work, for illegal aliens to vote, they would have to both have knowledge of someone eligible to vote, but who was not, AND be able to duplicate their signature. Further, Its just not even logical that a sane person would put their being here at risk for the very tenuous benefit of a vote.


The problems pointed out by opponents are multiple:

First, because those without IDs tend to be Democrats, AND because the places where this is being pushed are particularly those where the prior votes have been relatively close, it looks a lot like discrimination.. and attempt to make voting harder, penalizing the Democratic party far more than Republicans.

Second, while the IDs themselves are generally free (they are in PA), getting the documents you need to attain the ID, as well as paying for transportation to get to the locations where you can sign up does cost money. In some areas, we are not talking about a few dollars for a bus pass, either. In my area, just as an example, there is a driver office open one day a week.. Weds. If you work or just cannot make that day, then you have to travel 30 miles. One way bus fare is between $5 and $10, depending on your exact location.

Third point is that even if cost is not prohibitive, the sheer difficult can be a major impedement. A proposal was put forward to allow people to get IDs at their local state representative's offices, closer for most people and open far more (at least in rural areas) than the driver offices. However, these offices do not have the security needed. (I find that last a bit confusing, since when I have to get child abuse and criminal clearances, that is exactly where I go.. and the information I have to give for those is more complete than that required for a voter ID, BUT that was the official ruling by the state.. not my opinion).

Fourth, as you pointed out, there is additional cost in this. That has gotten the least press here in PA, so it might not be such a big impact.

There are some other, lessor issues, but those are the biggies.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:34 am

Where's the national level data on voter fraud and/or cheating?

I recall there was that WSJ article which mentioned roughly 2000 individual votes... but in 2008, Louisiana had 1500 illegal votes from some organizations allegedly linked to ACORN. I'm pretty sure that the 1500 is not included in that WSJ article; otherwise, it would have been ground-breaking news that in 2008 LA was the only State to have experienced voter fraud... (maybe the dates don't even match-up).

But what's the data on this? Because I haven't found anything accurate and over time..
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby tzor on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:25 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Where's the national level data on voter fraud and/or cheating?


If someone cheats and gets away with it, how is that going to show up on a database? It's sort of like asking "how many people drive over the legal speed limit?" The fact that no one is enforcing the verification of speed is a good indication that no one is accumulating exceptionally accurate statistics. Basically anything you do see is the tip of the iceberg, gross voter fraud or cases where the election was close enough that you had to go through every ballot two or three times.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:59 am

tzor wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Where's the national level data on voter fraud and/or cheating?


If someone cheats and gets away with it, how is that going to show up on a database? It's sort of like asking "how many people drive over the legal speed limit?" The fact that no one is enforcing the verification of speed is a good indication that no one is accumulating exceptionally accurate statistics. Basically anything you do see is the tip of the iceberg, gross voter fraud or cases where the election was close enough that you had to go through every ballot two or three times.


An investigation is held, culprits are found.

But yes, not all crimes are discovered.
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:30 am

From 5 minutes on Bing-Dot-Com, it appears positive ID at time of voting is an international elections standard. Is it possible that both (a) Republicans are attempting to take advantage of the system for their own ends, and, (b) ID requirements are a good idea? Or are the two ideas mutually exclusive?

UK
no ID required
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/how_do_i_v ... erson.aspx

Australia
no ID required
http://www.aec.gov.au/FAQs/Voting_Australia.htm

New Zealand
government-issued non-photo ID required
http://www.elections.org.nz/voting/voti ... n-day.html

Ireland
government-issued non-photo ID required
http://www.vote.ie/why-vote/how-do-i-vote.html

Belgium
government-issued non-photo ID required
http://brussels.angloinfo.com/informati ... ng/voting/

Canada
government-issued Photo ID required, or 2 forms of non-photo ID, or, 1 personal witness who has photo ID
http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?se ... dex&lang=e

France
government-issued photo ID required
http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/sections/a ... electorale

Israel
government-issued photo ID required
http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections17/e ... ec_eng.htm

India
government-issued photo ID required
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... tituencies

Mexico
government-issued photo ID required
http://listanominal.ife.org.mx/consulta ... nte_ln.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/stor ... 52779410/1

South Africa
government-issued photo ID required
http://www.sabceducation.co.za/Subsites ... e_q&a.html

Kenya
government-issued photo ID required
http://blog.usaid.gov/2010/05/making-every-vote-count/
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:30 am

Carter Center
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/editor ... er_id.html
In 2005, we led a bipartisan Commission on Federal Election Reform and concluded that both parties' concerns were legitimate — a free and fair election requires both ballot security and full access to voting. We offered a proposal to bridge the partisan divide by suggesting a uniform voter photo ID, based on the federal Real ID Act of 2005, to be phased in over five years. To help with the transition, states would provide free voter photo ID cards for eligible citizens; mobile units would be sent out to provide the IDs and register voters. (Of the 21 members of the commission, only three dissented on the requirement for an ID.)
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:34 pm

who votes anyway?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:40 pm

I still have to ask: How would having a voter i.d. help for absentee or mail-in ballots which are being promoted heavily in many states?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Symmetry on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:41 pm

stahrgazer wrote:I still have to ask: How would having a voter i.d. help for absentee or mail-in ballots which are being promoted heavily in many states?


Help who?
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Re: Showing ID to Vote

Postby Lootifer on Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:47 pm

How the f*ck is this even a topic up for debate?!

Surely the obvious and best solution is government funded identification system here? Hell even BBS and the other Anarcholibs will agree with me on this - that is surely organising the actual details of voting and processing is something that the governement should prob be spending money on..?

A system which involes cost free identification is easy to set up. Why would you not use something like that? (Blue countries in Saxis post above).

You can do it with pre-existing forms of ID as well but that does impose a cost on people (argh im agreeing with Sym); so the cost of the NZ or similar systems (blue above) is valid imo.
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